NSI vs Eggenfellner

[777shotgun]

Howdy Rvatrs,
I am comtemplating a subaru engine. Who is better NSI or Eggenfellner and why ? From the looks of their website www.nsiaero.com NSI appears to be more "plug and play" friendly. They even supply a cowling. Also NSI is less expensive primarily because Egg is now only selling the H6 engine. From the looks of Eggenfellner user group there seems to be a great deal of strife in mounting the engine to the aircraft. Additionally after visiting several individual builders websites it appears like there have been some real delivery issues with the Egg product i.e. not getting the engine when promised and given unfriendly customer service. Any OBJECTIVE information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Randy

 

[Rotary10-RV]

Howdy Rvatrs,
I am comtemplating a subaru engine. Who is better NSI or Eggenfellner and why ? From the looks of their website www.nsiaero.com NSI appears to be more "plug and play" friendly. They even supply a cowling. Also NSI is less expensive primarily because Egg is now only selling the H6 engine. From the looks of Eggenfellner user group there seems to be a great deal of strife in mounting the engine to the aircraft. Additionally after visiting several individual builders websites it appears like there have been some real delivery issues with the Egg product i.e. not getting the engine when promised and given unfriendly customer service. Any OBJECTIVE information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Randy

Randy, I think you got this one totally BACKWARD. Eggenfellner is the ONLY company delivering a on-time trouble free product. They don't supply the cowl as you use the RV-cowl! I don't have a Egg Subaru, nor do I plan to, but they are easily the class of the field in Subaru conversions. A friend recently received his engine for his RV-9 and it looks very nice. Eggenfellner will also sell you a new 4 cylinder, and recently had a few single cam engines for less money. The Eggenfellner engines bolt up as they use a modified Vans engine mount. I have seen the product, the RV-9 has the single cam 4 cylinder engine and looks great. Tom Moore who is on the web site (one of the first 6 cylinders) is in my EAA chapter (EAA 663 Livermore) and flew the plane IFR from Oregon to show it at a chapter meeting. He has had very few problems. He replaced a faulty EFI fuel pressure regulator early on and that is about it. I believe he is past the 100 hour make on his aircraft.
Bill Jepson VP EAA 663 Livermore

 

[rv8ch]

Eggenfellner all the way

I spent several months investigating Subaru engine providers. The NSI website looks good, but I swear I could not get in contact with anyone but the receptionist at NSI to ask some very basic questions. I sent E-mail, postal mail, faxes, and of course telephoned them many times. Never could get the questions answered. NSI may have a fine product, but I figured if they are not available during the sales cycle, what will happen after they have my money?

On the other hand, if you call Jan Eggenfellner, or send an E-mail, you'll get him, the top dog, on the phone 9 times out of 10. This means a lot to me, since I'm not in the same country as the engine supplier. I needed to know they will be there if I have a problem or question. Eggenfellner is there.

Another thing that sold me on Eggenfellner over the others is that he does not open the engine, and attempt to "hop it up" or "improve" it. He understands that Japanese six-sigma manufacturing can't be beat, so he concentrates his energy on the engineering of the adaption of the engine to the various airframes.

I could go on and on, but the best thing for you to do would be to visit them both at Oshkosh. Eggenfellner will have several flying customer RVs at the show for you to look at. Not sure about the others.

 

[rv6ejguy]

If you follow the EGG, NSI, Crossflow users group several NSI customers are STILL waiting for their ordered engines which they were promised months ago. NSI does not have a good record returning calls and their website has remained virtually unchanged for about 2 years now, complete with known erroneous fuel flow and hp numbers. I think if you contact EGG and NSI, you will see very quickly who has real customer support. There are many more EGGs flying in RVs than any other Sube conversion and he has a real presence at all the big shows.

 

[777shotgun]

Guys,
Thanks very much for your insight. My primary concern with the Egg engine came from reading a builders diary http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm click on his engine tab and read on. This guy got his engine (finally) in April and just now got it on the airplane. Brian is WAY WAY more mechanical than I could ever hope to be and this gives me some cause for concern since I really don't want to feel his pain. Perhaps his experience is just an isolated instance but in his post he makes reference to other builders also waiting around for an engine. NSI now claims to have a facility in Arlington WA. I plan to visit both vendors prior to OSH since I won't be able to attend this year. None the less thanks very much for your input.

Randy

 

[DGlaeser]

NSI vs Eggenfeller

Guys,
Thanks very much for your insight. My primary concern with the Egg engine came from reading a builders diary http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm click on his engine tab and read on. This guy got his engine (finally) in April and just now got it on the airplane. Brian is WAY WAY more mechanical than I could ever hope to be and this gives me some cause for concern since I really don't want to feel his pain. Perhaps his experience is just an isolated instance but in his post he makes reference to other builders also waiting around for an engine. NSI now claims to have a facility in Arlington WA. I plan to visit both vendors prior to OSH since I won't be able to attend this year. None the less thanks very much for your input.

Randy

Brian is using a supercharged XTI engine, of which only a few have been sold so far because of development work being done on the intercooler required. Being one of the first for something like this will always carry risks of delays. Brian has recently volunteered to update and maintain the installation manual that was started by Gary Newsted, so he's putting his delay time to good use.

My suggestion: get on the Eggenfeller Yahoo list (get the link from their website) and ask questions. The good news: Jan's engines are always being upgraded and improved - recently a new PSRU with dual-mass flywheel (what was the last improvement on a Lycoming?). The bad news: sometimes that causes delays. We are building experimental aircraft, after all!

Dennis Glaeser
7A Empennage - plan to use an Eggenfeller Subaru

 

[rvatornate]

Egg install for the mechanically challenged

Randy,

I can relate to your concerns about not being as mechanically inclined as many who build airplanes. I clearly fall into that category. My main skill as a builder is following directions, and asking lots of questions. As far as the skill needed to set up and maintain the Egg engine, you need not worry. A single afternoon from crate to hanging on the firewall was all it took me, and 1st start occurred the next morning. Very little in the way of maintainance concerns, and support for any problems (both of which were caused by me) came quickly and eagerly. I would highly recommend Jan's engine to anyone building an RV, and will gladly answer any ?'s you may have.

Nathan Larson
N217JT RV9E 310 hours of fun!
I'll be one of the gang of builders showing off our planes/engines at Jan's Oshkosh display.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Uhaaaa what is new?

What was the last improvement on a Lycoming? - plan to use an Eggenfeller Subaru

Uhaaaaaa, I know, I know:

-Advanced Roller Cam, new roller tappet and cam design,
-Nickel+Carbide processed & thru hardened cylinder bores, new materials
-New electronic ignition (P/E-mag, LS -III, Electroair), new self-pwr-ed EI
-Piston Cooling Nozzles & Camshaft Lubricating Nozzles, improved lubrication
-New Accessories available: Prop Gov (MT), Fuel Injection (Precision Airmotive, Airflow perf)
-New Lycoming engine model AEIO-390-X (210HP engine), new model
-Wide range of aftermarket exhaust: 4 into 1/cross-over/ 4 into 4
-90 degree spin oil filter adapter, new accessories
-Carbon Fiber oil sump, lightweight component
-2 new part manufactures: ECI and Superior
(How many manufactures of Subaru parts are there?)​

Sorry could not resist, but you brought it up. Cheers George

PS: There was a thread in these forums with many complaints about NSI, but it was removed after they threatened Doug with legal action; what does that say? I have mostly heard good about Eggy.

 

[rv6ejguy]

Subaru is the only manufacturers of major engine parts for their engines like cases, cranks, heads etc. however there are well over 50 companies making pistons, valves, cams, springs, gaskets, rods, valvetrain and exterior parts like turbo manifolds, intakes, TBs etc.

The big thing with the EJ Subes is there is no need for aftermarket cranks, cases , heads etc. because there is no history of problems with the major assemblies. They don't break cranks or suffer from cracked heads or barrels, spalled cams etc. They have proven to be very, very reliable in use and there are MILLIONS out there. In about 90 days, Fuji builds more engines than Lyc has built in its entire existence.

I was looking at my friend's new RV7A with an O-360 Lyc clone installed. When I asked him what his EGT spread was with his new, better, revised intake, he said 180F. About the same as my other friend with a stock O-360 at 200 degrees. Same problem on these two Lycs- 4 one cylinder engines flying in close formation - different AFRs in each cylinder.

 

[Build9A]

touche'

Good post George. I'm a lycoming owner and appreciate the info.

One point that I would like to make, being a first time builder, is that the lycoming is not very hard to install. I think the plug and play aspects of the sub packages are over rated. Other than the baffles the engine was the most straight forward part of my building process.

I am not trashing the eggsubs or NSI as I think they have a good package and eggsubs appear to have good support. I have a couple of friends who are installing them. I just don't think "ease of installation" should occupy a very big limb in the decision tree. IMHO jack

 

[gmcjetpilot]

I am Here to Sever

I was looking at my friend's new RV7A with an O-360 Lyc clone installed. When I asked him what his EGT spread was with his new, better, revised intake, he said 180F. Simple baffle adjustment

The big thing with the EJ Subes is there is no need for aftermarket cranks, cases, heads etc. because there is no history of problems with the major assemblies. They don't break cranks or suffer from cracked heads or barrels, spalled cams etc. True, product improvements and refinement, but no wholesale changes because the foundation is sound. If you think those 50 manufactures (all building for Sube) will support your engine for the next X years, great. You could always switch to a Lycoming because they will still be making them 50 years from now.

In about 90 days, Fuji builds more engines than Lyc has built in its entire existence. Quality not quantity

Good post George. I'm a lycoming owner and appreciate the info. At least someone appreciates me

Really I was just answering a question no need too defend your fine choice in propulsion system.
Me-thinks-Ye Doth Protest Too Much.
Cheers George

 

[rv8ch]

Lyc improvements

Uhaaaaaa, I know, I know: (lots of cool stuff deleted)

But George, can you make one phone call, and get a complete package with *all* this stuff delivered in/on your engine, and when it arrives, have the engine running on the airframe within a couple of hours?

 

[gmcjetpilot]

Couple of hours!

But George, can you make one phone call, and get a complete package with *all* this stuff delivered in/on your engine, and when it arrives, have the engine running on the airframe within a couple of hours?

Couple of hours, One phone call! Yippeeee! Time to deal with most anything I touch regarding an airplane usually can be measured more by a calendar than a watch; you over estimate my skills.

As far as one call, you could call Van and get engine, prop and firewall kits for those who don't want to scrounge. ONE CALL! A Lyc with a carb, mags and Sench fixed pitch prop is about as simple and quick as you can get.

All the time spent getting ready to add extra system support stuff: Extra battery, Liquid Cooling, extra fuel system items to the airframe for the Eggy, balances out. http://www.rv8.ch/index.php?topic=engines

That instant gratification of seeing the "package" go from box to firewall is no doubt cool. Still I doubt that there is a large overall timesavings in the total project, just my opinion. Like a glue-it-together composite airplane, they look like a plane in the box but still take as long or longer to build than say a RV. Everything takes time. Just looking at your great sight you have what appears some cool modifications, which look far from plug and play, but you are obviously a perfectionist who does nice work.

BTW, Your pretty RV sure looks nice. George

 

[777shotgun]

What about this....

Okay, once again thanks for all of the input. Ya got me leaning back toward Eggenfellner. One last thing though, I seem to remember reading in a post somewhere that the Egg sube requires you to mount the fuel pumps on the cockpit side of the firewall (kind of hard to call it a firewall anymore) in order to prevent vapor lock ???? Is that right ? or is that only the case in certain exotic installations ? And what about the choice of using mogas ? Or is everyone using 100LL ???

And for all you non believers out there (I believe you are refered to as Lycosaurs) up until very recently I too thought just like you. Being a military trained aviator whenever I heard about anyone running a car engine in an aircraft I thought they were just whack jobs asking for trouble. I went to the Eggenfellner website just to see what all the fuss was about and after reading just two pages I kind of saw the light, I mean it just makes sense. Especially moneywise since my plan was to buy a brand new Lycoming. Back when I lived in Colorado Springs I remember getting up early one winter morning (when the OAT was hovering around -12 degrees F) starting my ex-wife's subaru Justy which had been parked outside all night and driving to the Peterson AFB Aero Club early just because I knew I was going to need to PREHEAT the 172 I was going to be flying......nuff said ????

 

[rv6ejguy]

Really I was just answering a question no need too defend your fine choice in propulsion system.
Me-thinks-Ye Doth Protest Too Much.
Cheers George

Perhaps I doth protest too much...

Well your post did make me laugh George and I do read and appreciate and usually agree with your fine comments and suggestions to others on flying, training IFR etc. in other sections here. You are certainly a wealth of knowledge on these subjects and much more experienced than I on these matters. We all know you like Lycs but this is the Alternative Engines Section and interjecting into here with comments like quantity not quality is just likely to incite people like me to respond.

Since when was the quality of Subaru engines in question? I must have missed that. The Sube has a forged crank with rolled fillets OE just like a Lyc. except that their quality control is better, explaining why the don't break. The Sube has forged rods, great metallurgy and proper heat treatment of its CAD engines. Fuji Heavy Industries is not comprised of a bunch of fools I don't think and most of the independent surveys of Subaru cars finds them near the top of the lists for satisfaction and reliability. Egg has dozens of Sube engines flying, not aware of one which has suffered an internal failure nor aware of any of the RAF 2000 gyros having suffered an internal failure in 100,000 flight hours. Just what are you basing this lack of quality thing on?

 

[rv6ejguy]

Okay, once again thanks for all of the input. Ya got me leaning back toward Eggenfellner. One last thing though, I seem to remember reading in a post somewhere that the Egg sube requires you to mount the fuel pumps on the cockpit side of the firewall (kind of hard to call it a firewall anymore) in order to prevent vapor lock ???? Is that right ? or is that only the case in certain exotic installations ? And what about the choice of using mogas ? Or is everyone using 100LL ???

Even the Lyc RV has the boost pump mounted in the cockpit along with the fuel lines and selector so if something were to fracture...


Mounting the EFI pumps inside may actually be safer away from ignition sources like the exhaust and may help to avoid heat soaking pumps which can lead to vapor lock. Egg has a pretty proven setup which I wouldn't screw with here. Egg flyers are using both Mogas and 100LL. 100LL users often add a bit of Decalin TCP to scavenge the lead. I'd high recommend you join the Egg Yahoo group as all your questions will be answred by either very enthusiastic Egg flyers or Jan himself. It's one of the best groups of its kind.

You might want to review other past pasts (or you may not) here in this alternative engines section. Bottom line on most Sube installations: they are a bit heavier than an O-360, slightly slower in top speed it would appear, slightly more expensive and they burn a bit more fuel at high power settings when operating in open loop mode. Other than these things, they offer all the advantages you are already aware of. I'm sure you'll enjoy flying your RV with either engine choice.

 

[Peter Costick]

back to the original post

The original post referred to some problems fitting the engine, if that came from the egg message board in recent days then you may have been looking at my questions. The answers to which are best summed up as RTFM (read the manual...). But since I work in IT I tend not to read manuals if it can be avoided

Anyway I fitted my engine, working alone, without too much trouble, and I resolved the small issue I had quickly by posting a question and receiving a very swift reply from Jan and others in the Egg community (which really is what the Egg board has become).

If you are referring to Brian Meyettes build site then yes Brian has identified a few things which are issues to him, he seems to be a details person and he isn't backward in coming forward with his views. I often use Brians site for reference and find it useful. But the key is that Jan actually has a link to Brians site on his web. So no attempts are being made by Jan to cover things up and make them seem what they aren't.

Jan Eggenfellners product isn't perfect, but it is real

Peter

 

[Rotary10-RV]

Uhaaaaaa, I know, I know:

-Advanced Roller Cam, new roller tappet and cam design,
Wow doing what auto engines have been doing for 40 years!

-New electronic ignition (P/E-mag, LS -III, Electroair), new self-pwr-ed EI
Wow! see first item. BTW Subarus have come this way for 20 years.

-Piston Cooling Nozzles & Camshaft Lubricating Nozzles, improved lubrication
Zowie, I believe this was first done by Buggati in about 1921.

-New Accessories available: Prop Gov (MT), Fuel Injection (Precision Airmotive, Airflow perf)
Not even Lyc parts! How come there's a market?

-New Lycoming engine model AEIO-390-X (210HP engine), new model
More zowie, add more cubes to make more power theres a new one! BTW the new 4 cylinders have just been added to the Lyc crankshaft recall.

-Wide range of aftermarket exhaust: 4 into 1/cross-over/ 4 into 4
You have got to be kidding this is so obvious that it almost criminal that it has taken this long. (not caused by Lyc but rather the FAA)


-Carbon Fiber oil sump, lightweight component
Possibly the first truly new component, but why still route the intake thru the thing?

-2 new part manufactures: ECI and Superior
The only thing pushing Lyc to release anything new themselves.

George Lycs are a decent engine. After 50 years of production, true innovations are very few. Im not even going to use a Subaru, but in honest analysis I find it a better engine than a Lycoming on every count. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT WILL BE BETTER IN AN AIRCRAFT. That depends on how well it is setup for aircraft. Eggenfellners package is a good one and even the most mechanically challenged (who are capable of building an RV) should have no problems with it.

Bill Jepson
Rotary10-RV​

 

[acent05]

Egg 4 cyl supercharged with MT Prop

Just put deposit on RV-7 with Egg 4cyl (0 Total Time) and MT composite 3 blade prop (150 hrs. TT) I am converting to IO 360 and constant speed and would like to move this whole firewall forward package if you are interested.

 

[rvsxer]

I was looking at my friend's new RV7A with an O-360 Lyc clone installed. When I asked him what his EGT spread was with his new, better, revised intake, he said 180F. About the same as my other friend with a stock O-360 at 200 degrees. Same problem on these two Lycs- 4 one cylinder engines flying in close formation - different AFRs in each cylinder.

EGT spread means nothing. As long as they peak together, as they should with flow-balanced cylinders and nozzles you are good to go. Don't take my word for it, though. Every article I've read on the subject (Aviation Consumer, EAA Sport Aviation, etc.) says just that...

 

[L.Adamson]

EGT spread means nothing. As long as they peak together, as they should with flow-balanced cylinders and nozzles you are good to go. Don't take my word for it, though. Every article I've read on the subject (Aviation Consumer, EAA Sport Aviation, etc.) says just that...

Of course, with the exception of yesterday, this thread is seven years old.

For instance............ from 7/05

Im not even going to use a Subaru, but in honest analysis I find it a better engine than a Lycoming on every count. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT WILL BE BETTER IN AN AIRCRAFT. That depends on how well it is setup for aircraft. Eggenfellners package is a good one and even the most mechanically challenged (who are capable of building an RV) should have no problems with it.

Some thoughts may have changed, since that was written.

 

[rvsxer]

Of course, with the exception of yesterday, this thread is seven years old.

For instance............ from 7/05

Im not even going to use a Subaru, but in honest analysis I find it a better engine than a Lycoming on every count. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT WILL BE BETTER IN AN AIRCRAFT. That depends on how well it is setup for aircraft. Eggenfellners package is a good one and even the most mechanically challenged (who are capable of building an RV) should have no problems with it.

Some thoughts may have changed, since that was written.

I'm sorry, Larry (and Ross). I just had to think awhile about my reply...

 

[brian]

Just put deposit on RV-7 with Egg 4cyl (0 Total Time) and MT composite 3 blade prop (150 hrs. TT) I am converting to IO 360 and constant speed and would like to move this whole firewall forward package if you are interested.

I think you'll want to put this in the Classifieds section. It will also be helpful to potential buyers if you specify which Egg 4 cyl (supercharged, non-supercharged, STi), as I'm sure that's the first question they'd be asking.