RV-14A Traffic Pattern Procedures

[Kevin49777]

I would like to hear from RV-14A owners on their takeoff and landing practices including how they conduct pattern work. I am close to flight testing my RV-14A and have gone for transition training with Van’s. After the transition training I am questioning if the takeoff and landing method taught by Van’s instructors is best for my intended use/mission. (Stable IFR cross country aircraft) Let me state up front that I am not questioning the professionalism, skill, knowledge, or experience of the instructors.

My questions:
1. With the excellent climb rate of the RV-14 for a VFR takeoff is 10+ degrees of pitch safer than lowering the nose a bit to have better forward visibility?
2. Is a continuous 30-degree bank turn from departure to crosswind-downwind so that the pattern is very tight and the end of the wing appears to touch the runway on downwind the best pattern size? At a controlled field, or with other aircraft in the mosquito size pattern seems to me to create separation problems and confuse controllers and other pilots.
3. When abeam the numbers on downwind is pitching for 75kts the best speed at this point in the pattern? Would say 80-90 not be better?
4. When 45 degrees from the numbers at 75kts initiating a 30 degree bank turn, is this not a bit steep in a slow flight configured aircraft?
5. When on the base/final 30 degree bank turn why a 1000+ fpm descent to the numbers? Would not a longer downwind, wider pattern, 20 degree military style turn rather than 30 degree military style turn, and a 300-500 fpm rate of descent to a landing past the numbers not be safer and result in many more “greased” landings?

I would appreciate any and all input from RV-14 owners.

 

[Bavafa]

First off, congratulations as you seem to be getting ready for the first flight and the beginning of phase I flight testing which is very exciting.
To answer your question, if your primary concern is for the first few flights then I agree that the pattern for that might need to be somewhat different and modified. But for a general pattern, mine adheres close to what you have described.
My take off always simulates a soft field takeoff (without any flaps) and the nose wheel off the ground ASAP. I climb at around 1000-1200 fpm and every min or so lower the nose to look up front. If I am doing pattern work, my turn to downwind is as soon as practical which means well before I get to the pattern altitude unless there is any other traffic in the pattern to allow for spacing.
My landing consists of a short pattern with the aim of if I lose the engine, I want to be able to make it to the runway. With that in mind, I pull to idle a beam of the numbers and aim for about 80k with one notch of flap. By the time I am at 80, it is just about the time to turn base, which puts me just about 45 degrees from the end of the runway. As I turn base, I aim for 75k and another notch of flap. As I turn final, my aim is 70k and all flaps with 65k over the fence. On the touch down, the nose gear stays up as long as it is possible. As the pitch and roll angles are, I can't tell you as I am not looking at those degrees but I suspect they are at 30 degree or maybe even tighter.
Having described this, I honestly look at the airspeed very few times during take off and landing as you eventually learn to read the plane and know the speed by the feel of it, at least I encourage you to do so.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[jbDC9]

Oh man, so many numbers…

A question; what’s your flying background? I don’t mean to sound condescending or snarky, but all those questions reflect a student pilot cookbook style of flying, robotic and by the numbers. That’s not to say that certain numbers (speeds/altitudes) aren’t important, but at some point, you gotta just feel it and fly it.

I’m not a high time -14 driver, just a few hours in one, but have 2200+ total RV time… dare I say that the RV-14 flies like an airplane, honest with no really bad habits. If you’ve been through Van’s transition training, just fly it like you’ve been doing and don’t overthink it; you’ll do fine.

 

[mturnerb]

I did transition training with Mike Seager and followed his advice/methods pretty much to the letter. It always worked well.

At my home airport there were times the tower controllers wanted more speed approaching the airport to work me in with other pattern traffic. Mike's training and the numbers / settings he used worked just fine when it came time to slow down entering the pattern, or on final depending on how the controllers worked me in. FWIW I found the speeds on my "as built" 14A to be almost exactly the same with same power settings as with the factory airplane.

 

[M McGraw]

Disagree

I loathe entering opinion threads, but choose to make an exception for safety. I do not intend to be disagreeable; however, I disagree with Mr. Bixby. I’ve not totaled a logbook in a few years, but I’m no student pilot. While I don’t use exactly the same numbers as Bavafa, my approach is similar. I use AOA, but always crosscheck with airspeed in every phase. Numbers are important for consistency. For every phase of flight I have a reference for airspeed, AOA, pitch, flaps setting and finally power. When an instrument fails or the sound is unusual it is safe to have another source of reference.

There was once a moonless night on a VFR approach into Bermuda with a blinding lighthouse in the distance. The best clue I had to look inside was wind noise. My co-pilot said “this feels just like the simulator”. The instruments told the rest of the story. Pitch attitude, AOA, bank, and airspeed all contribute to the big picture of looking out the window.

 

[PhatRV]

Congratulation on your upcoming first flight.

I am at the similar stage as you are. Have you considered using a additional pilot program for your first flight? I am definitely using this program since it is allowed for all RVs.

 

[Brian Perry]

I did my transition training with Mike Seager. He taught me the same procedures you outline above. I followed his training to the letter for my first few flights and I would suggest you do the same. The first few flights in any aircraft that is new to you is not the time to experiment with new procedures.

Now that I have about 300 hours in the RV, I still pretty much adhere to what he taught me, it just works well. I was accused by a local CFI during a flight review of flying an "aggressive" pattern. I tend to fly my downwind close to the runway and use about 30 degrees of bank. This bank angle is entirely safe in an RV-14 as you are still >20 knots above stall speed at 75 kts. My "aggressive" pattern is likely also a remnant of my F-16 days and the single engine mentality. I like to stay close in the pattern in case of an engine failure. I have flown my RV-14A all over the USA, Canada and the Bahamas and have never been accused of confusing anyone with a tight pattern.

As for IFR flying, I still take of and climb at Vy to pattern altitude. I then settle into a cruise climb at about 110-120 kts. If there is no one in front of me on the approach, I fly approaches at 90 kts with 1 notch of flaps from the FAF then add the second notch of flaps and slow to 75 when the runway is in sight or ~1 mile final (which ever is later). I can always slow down anywhere on the approach if needed by ATC.

 

[lr172]

While I don’t use exactly the same numbers as Bavafa, my approach is the similar. I use AOA, but always crosscheck with airspeed in every phase. Numbers are important for consistency. For every phase of flight I have a reference for airspeed, AOA, pitch, flaps setting and finally power. When an instrument fails or the sound is unusual it is safe to have another source of reference.

+1

I am not a fan of just flying by the seat of your pants. There is a reason this statement is not considered a compliment by most safety experts. IMHO you should be monitoring either airspeed or AOA on base & final. It is just too easy to get distracted or be thrown off by outside factors. I once did a pattern in some serious wind shear. Forecast was 60 kts @ 1000'; surface was 10 kts. On base to final, I observed my airspeed rapidly oscillating between 80-110 MPH. Have no idea if this was actual or byproduct of the shear. That would not be a good day to lack the discipline of airspeed monitoring. It took me 3 attempts to get down below 500' with what I deemed a safe airspeed.

Yes, you should be able to feel the airplane and intuitively know exactly where it is in the envelope and an admirable goal to achieve. But relying solely upon that allows for all sorts of bad things to pop up, not the least of which is a distraction. Let's also remember that not all of us have Bob Hoover type intuition. You may be just as good as he was, but I am confident that not all of us are and therefore not really good advice for the masses. The alarming quantity of base to final stalls, kind of proves that point. It also reinforces the fact that large bank angles increase stall speed even though the plane FEELS LIKE it is well above stall speed.

 

[lr172]

I

Now that I have about 300 hours in the RV, I still pretty much adhere to what he taught me, it just works well. I was accused by a local CFI during a flight review of flying an "aggressive" pattern. I tend to fly my downwind close to the runway and use about 30 degrees of bank. This bank angle is entirely safe in an RV-14 as you are still >20 knots above stall speed at 75 kts. My "aggressive" pattern is likely also a remnant of my F-16 days and the single engine mentality. I like to stay close in the pattern in case of an engine failure. I have flown my RV-14A all over the USA, Canada and the Bahamas and have never been accused of confusing anyone with a tight pattern.
.

I do the same and get the same hot rod complaints. I just laugh as they then applaud the student who does a 3 mile final, clogging up the pattern and putting themselves at risk of an engine failure. I feel kind of bad for these students, as it conditions them for that type of pattern and can only imagine the outcome when they have to land with a dead engine 500 hours down the road.

 

[sailvi767]

Those students are hitting the airlines and can’t fly anything close to a proper pattern. Most will go out past the outer marker before turning back in. Burns a lot of gas!

 

[JDA_BTR]

I haven’t seen mention of flap limits in this thread. It is entirely possible to takeoff and get going really fast quick at pattern altitude. My 14 gets over 100 kts super fast and takes really reduced settings or pitch to get under 100 kts to drop the flaps if I’m coming in hot. The landing distance is so short that in a lot of places only part of the runway is used even with a long roll. So the pattern method will vary a lot by preference and personal enjoyment factors. If you are in the pattern and lose the engine I’d think it possible to land on the runway without much difficulty in most circumstances wherever in the pattern you are.

If I’m planning to stay in the pattern I get off the deck and instead of 25/25 might do 21/23 at sea level. Adjust this for the airport altitude; I fly at a lot of diff altitudes from CO to Louisiana.

 

[lr172]

Those students are hitting the airlines and can’t fly anything close to a proper pattern. Most will go out past the outer marker before turning back in. Burns a lot of gas!

Always wondered what becomes of them once they get to the majors. I get the sense they don't appreciate it any more than I do.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

It's an excellent idea to have a stable baseline for your traffic patterns. That baseline, however, should be just that, a baseline that's adjusted for all of those variables that we see as GA pilots. It should not be the one and only way you know how to fly a pattern.

But your comfort zone should be much bigger than your baseline. That's the foundation of the presentation I gave in the AOPA tent at Oshkosh, two years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C2xfFNb1sQ

Here's the open invitation to all comers: come fly with me in my RV-9A, or whatever you bring, or both, and explore the Expanded Envelope Exercises®. Flight instruction and use of the RV-9A are free, but the cost of the ground instruction is that you buy lunch.

 

[FitzRX7]

Here's the open invitation to all comers: come fly with me in my RV-9A, or whatever you bring, or both, and explore the Expanded Envelope Exercises®. Flight instruction and use of the RV-9A are free, but the cost of the ground instruction is that you buy lunch.

Holy cow, what an offer! Also I think your YouTube is a great watch for a pilot of any experience level.

Know the numbers, but know the feel too. Keep learning every day!

Fitz

 

[U2drvr]

I'm in Savannah!

Here's the open invitation to all comers: come fly with me in my RV-9A, or whatever you bring, or both, and explore the Expanded Envelope Exercises®. Flight instruction and use of the RV-9A are free, but the cost of the ground instruction is that you buy lunch.

I just landed in KSAV a few hours ago (WN3157) and wish I could take you up on that, but sadly it's a work trip and I have to fly back to the west coast in the afternoon (WN3313). I love it here and will have to fly my RV-14 out someday (once I finish it!)

Brian Peck
https://u2drvr.smugmug.com
https://eaabuilderslog.org/?s=u2drvr

 

[BobTurner]

But your comfort zone should be much bigger than your baseline.

+1. Exactly the words I was looking for.
Note to Brian: If you ever fly ifr out west, think things thru before cruise climbing above 1000’ agl. Some departure procedures require pretty high climb gradients.

 

[grumman41]

Mike has laid out a pretty good “template” for you. I’ve noticed that some inexperienced pilots get confused and think they to follow a template regardless of traffic, wind, terrain, ATC, etc.
I’ve entered the pattern in a Falcon 2000 to find several GA planes planes MUCH farther out, sometimes so far out (downwind or base)I can’t see them.

You’re doing the right thing by asking, I’ve been told procedures by major flight training facilities and found out many years later that it wasn’t best practice.
I’ve learned a lot here and will continue, wealth of knowledge lurking!

 

[PandaCub]

After four years in my RV-14A, I have a few standard practices based on initial transition training and real-world experience. I put these out there for comment as much as anything else, and please know that my ways may not be the best for other RV-14As and experience levels. Any & all input welcome:

• 
  After run-up and just before taxing onto the runway, I put in 10º of flaps.

• As I make the turn onto the runway for takeoff, I switch on the fuel boost pump.

• I rotate at 60 KIAS, retract flaps at 70 KIAS, and fly level about 50 ft over the runway until 90 KIAS, then climb @ 90 KIAS at whatever rate of climb that gives me (usually > 1000 fpm).

• 
  I’ve set up the Garmin to alert at 800’ AGL, which is my personal minimum for an “impossible turn” back to the runway (an engine failure any lower has me looking straight ahead).

• 
  The RV-14A is such a high performer that I generally reach pattern altitude before turning downwind.

• 
  At pattern altitude I reduce throttle, turn off the boost pump, and shoot for 90 KIAS on the downwind leg, keeping the runway in sight just off my wingtip.

• 
  Abeam the numbers I turn on the boost pump, cut throttle, and put in 10º of flaps.

• 
  On base leg I shoot for 80 KIAS.

• 
  70 KIAS on final (75 in gusty winds), then full flaps when the runway is assured.

A too-fast final approach has me floating down the runway quite a bit, so I’ve been known to sideslip it in if my approach was sloppy (e.g. above 80 KIAS).

I use 90, 80, and 70 KIAS on downwind, base, and final because they’re easy to remember - but again, your mileage may vary, along with uncertainties like traffic, winds, and runway length.

 

[Mel]

After four years in my RV-14A, I have a few standard practices based on initial transition training and real-world experience. I put these out there for comment as much as anything else, and please know that my ways may not be the best for other RV-14As and experience levels. Any & all input welcome:

• 
  After run-up and just before taxing onto the runway, I put in 10º of flaps.

• As I make the turn onto the runway for takeoff, I switch on the fuel boost pump.

• I rotate at 60 KIAS, retract flaps at 70 KIAS, and fly level about 50 ft over the runway until 90 KIAS, then climb @ 90 KIAS at whatever rate of climb that gives me (usually > 1000 fpm).

• 
  I’ve set up the Garmin to alert at 800’ AGL, which is my personal minimum for an “impossible turn” back to the runway (an engine failure any lower has me looking straight ahead).

• 
  The RV-14A is such a high performer that I generally reach pattern altitude before turning downwind.

• 
  At pattern altitude I reduce throttle, turn off the boost pump, and shoot for 90 KIAS on the downwind leg, keeping the runway in sight just off my wingtip.

• 
  Abeam the numbers I turn on the boost pump, cut throttle, and put in 10º of flaps.

• 
  On base leg I shoot for 80 KIAS.

• 
  70 KIAS on final (75 in gusty winds), then full flaps when the runway is assured.

A too-fast final approach has me floating down the runway quite a bit, so I’ve been know to sideslip it in if my approach was sloppy (e.g. above 80 KIAS).

I use 90, 80, and 70 KIAS on downwind, base, and final because they’re easy to remember - but again, your mileage may vary, along with uncertainties like traffic, winds, and runway length.

I might suggest flaps 15° instead of 10°. 15° is pretty much optimum L/D for RVs. 10° doesn't really buy you much.

 

[Ed_Wischmeyer]

Abeam the numbers I turn on the boost pump, cut throttle, and put in 10º of flaps.

It’s common to turn on the pump for takeoff and landing, but I think that it should be on any time you’re at low altitude. The pump fits well on takeoff and landing checklists, but those are not the primary reason, IMHO. (Omit the H from IMHO if you like….

 

[Bsquared]

200 hours in my 14A and I continue to use the Mike Seager method. However, I am based at a Class D field in Southern California with a lot of student traffic and a couple of dozen active RVs. The guys in the tower use the RVs like chess pieces…. Give me 20 knots, slow it up for spacing, exit Charlie if able (we always can). It honestly makes you a bit proud to be part of that group.

 

[Mel]

200 hours in my 14A and I continue to use the Mike Seager method. However, I am based at a Class D field in Southern California with a lot of student traffic and a couple of dozen active RVs. The guys in the tower use the RVs like chess pieces…. Give me 20 knots, slow it up for spacing, exit Charlie if able (we always can). It honestly makes you a bit proud to be part of that group.

Same here. At KTKI, often if I'm on downwind abeam the numbers and there is a long final, tower will ask if I can expedite landing from there. Of course the answer is always "Yes". Tower will "Cleared to land, Expedite immediately."
I'm on the ground and off the runway before the final traffic gets there.
When they are familiar with the capabilities of the airplane and the pilot, it works out well for everybody.

 

[U2drvr]

Note to Brian: If you ever fly ifr out west, think things thru before cruise climbing above 1000’ agl. Some departure procedures require pretty high climb gradients.

I live in Washington State, so I'm familiar

 

[BobTurner]

I live in Washington State, so I'm familiar

Sorry, I meant the other Brian!

 

[sailvi767]

Always wondered what becomes of them once they get to the majors. I get the sense they don't appreciate it any more than I do.

Flying into an African airport where we normally got a visual. Set up nicely in a 757 at 180 knots, flaps 5 abeam the runway. Tower clears us to land. When we reach 3 miles tower says, “Delta, I clear you to land, did you not hear”? Copilot says not comfortable yet. At 6 miles tower says, “Delta, are you lost”? Copilot turns based at 8 miles.
As a new hire we were required to fly a visual pattern in a 727 intercepting final at 500 feet. If you were not comfortable you went back to the schoolhouse.

 

[lr172]

Flying into an African airport where we normally got a visual. Set up nicely in a 757 at 180 knots, flaps 5 abeam the runway. Tower clears us to land. When we reach 3 miles tower says, “Delta, I clear you to land, did you not hear”? Copilot says not comfortable yet. At 6 miles tower says, “Delta, are you lost”? Copilot turns based at 8 miles.
As a new hire we were required to fly a visual pattern in a 727 intercepting final at 500 feet. If you were not comfortable you went back to the schoolhouse.

That's both funny and scarry at the same time. I think about some of the heroics seen in notable airliine emergency situations and can't help but be concerned that the guy in your story would not end up doing as well. Hopefully there are systems in place that keep guys like that from moving to the left seat.

 

[ChiefPilot]

That's both funny and scarry at the same time. I think about some of the heroics seen in notable airliine emergency situations and can't help but be concerned that the guy in your story would not end up doing as well. Hopefully there are systems in place that keep guys like that from moving to the left seat.

I wonder what the accident rate of countries where such is common vs that of countries where a stabilized approach at 1000’ is required? That would tell the tale…

 

[n82rb]

just general food for thought, and i commend the OP for trying to cover every base before a first flight. you can never be truly prepared for a first flight.

a couple of points that i think need to be addressed here. having a base line and flying a stable approach is good idea. however, the trend has been to fly longer finals,wider patterns and higher speeds. not a good method as far as im concerned. a good pilot should be comfortable at all areas of the envelope. ( as a side note, this is what phase 1 is for, to find those corners of the envelope. not just get hours to go to phase 2. but that another thread).

now, for a first flight im going to fly a bit faster because the accuracy of the pitot/static system has not been verified. note, i said a bit faster, not a bunch faster. this is where the advantages of good fly by the seat of your pants methods are an advantage. you really need to be able to feel what the airplane is telling you, especially on a first flight, you may not have any airspeed indication. for climb out i alwas use a steep climb (watching cyl temps of course) altitude is your friend when the fan quits, and that should alwas be a big concern on a first flight. flying a bit wider pattern will give you a bit more time in the pattern to get the feeling of what is going on, however, that must be balanced by the ability to get it on the runway or suitable area in the event of an engine failure.

as a final thought, as much as everyone whats to do that first flight, if you are not totally comfortable flying towards the corners of the flight envelop give serious thought to having someone with more experience in type and first flights do the first flight for you. im very concerned with the tends in first flights I see because, for the most part, RV's fly great out of the box and most the time the first flight is a cake walk. but i have seen a trend of people not taking the first flight serious enough.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

 

[RV8iator]

Exactly the same

But different, every time. Being new to an airplane it’s most wise to learn it’s numbers. Once comfortable, it’s most wise to know how to handle your airplane in all the situations you WILL run into in the pattern because of pilots who aren’t comfortable in their airplanes.

You will be forced into bomber patterns, long finals, short finals gusty crosswinds go arounds, maybe even a dead stick. Be alert and be ready.

Sound trite, but no approach is ever the exactly the same as the last.