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Recovery from Fire in a T-Hangar Two Over from Mine

Ed_Wischmeyer

Well Known Member
On Sunday, a Cessna 182 two hangars over caught fire and was completely consumed, as were several other airplanes. The Grumman Cheetah in the hangar between the Cessna and me had a melted headliner, warped dorsal fin, and other things. Initial reports were that my plane was covered with heavy soot, no obvious damage, but no other details were available.

Yesterday, the FBO called and told me that my plane was out of the hangar, a big relief as it seemed unlikely that power would be on again soon, if ever, to get the bifold door open. They were to tow the plane to another hangar in advance of Hurricane Idalia, which is expected to weaken to a tropical storm before it gets here after crossing Florida. A friend took photos, showing where plastic ceiling light fixtures had dripped onto the plane, including the canopy.

Yesterday, I coordinated with the insurance adjuster, my homeowner’s insurance agent, the FBO, and my friends who volunteered to help me get things out of the hangar. With the plane out of the hangar, I asked the airplane detailing crew to hose off the plane, nothing fancy, but enough that we could see any damage.

The pessimistic, always prepared part of me was thinking of alternative courses of action if the canopy needed replacing, the paint was damaged, or if any sheet metal had been damaged by molten light fixtures,

This afternoon, the insurance adjuster arrived, and I got my first look at the plane. All of the molten light fixture was washed off, but paint was discolored where the drips had been. There was no evidence of same on the canopy, a good sign, but I’ve never been good at examining my own planes, although I’m sharp at examining others’.

The adjuster walked around the plane taking picture, four quarter shots first, then detail shots, just as is taught in accident investigations courses. Then came numerous detail shots, including close examination of the data plate. He took photos of the logbooks over the last four years.

Then I opened the canopy. Yikes! There was soot everywhere. You know, like, everywhere. I knew from flying in rain that the back of the canopy doesn’t seal well, and the soot discovered that for itself. I have a shelf behind the seats of the RV-9A, a tremendously valuable improvement, and objects on the shelf showed that the biggest air leak is directly behind the pilot.

We removed the soot-covered plastic containers from the shelf, the soot-covered oxygen bottle from the shelf, the soot-covered portable electronics from above the instrument panel, the soot -covered headphones, and, can you believe it, the soot-covered tool box from the baggage compartment, next to the soot-covered spare alternator box. You get the idea. What a mess!

Next steps are to get the plane detailed and get all (ha!) the soot out of the plane and the interior, getting it ready for a first inspection by the mechanics. Hopefully it will be airworthy enough for one or two long-since planned trips. If not, there will be painful drives to Florida.

The adjuster says that soot-induced corrosion takes 30 days to show up and recommended a very detailed inspection at that time. Although it’s only been six months since the last [annual] condition inspection, and since the plane will be that much apart already, it seems like a good idea to do the condition inspection early.

Actual damage to my RV-9A was to the fiberglass nav light cover on the left wingtip, which warped, and numerous paint discolorations from the hot plastic of the ceiling light fixtures. Those spots will be rubbed out or touched up, And there was soot all over everything in the hangar, too. Did I mention soot?

It looks like the hangar object soot will resist being blown off, and I will research having the soot removal hired out.

But I’m grateful for support and volunteerism from friends, for all that the RV-9A has enabled me to do, to learn, and to write about, and for the many blessings the Lord has given me to share.
 
Hope it works out

I worked an insurance job on a Cessna Corvalis that had soot damage from a fire a few hangars away.

Insurance totaled the airplane for potential damage from soot in the avionics (G1000 panel).

Be sure to ask the adjuster about that.

In my experience, paint discolored from heat generally won't buff out.

Best of luck with the clean up.
 
If this was my aircraft I'd be very concerned about the amount of heat involved here as well as penetration of soot/smoke into places you can't see well. Enough heat to melt overhead fixtures, enough to seriously damage the metal structure of the hangar, enough to warp fiberglass parts. What kind of parts could be damaged in hidden places? Laird mentioned avionics. Where else might soot be that could affect airworthiness (fuel system, induction system, etc)?

I know you intend to have further mechanical eval but I wonder if a true expert like Vic Syracuse could help you thoroughly evaluate the aircraft?
 
Insurance totaled the airplane for potential damage from soot in the avionics (G1000 panel).

Be sure to ask the adjuster about that.

Thanks for the heads up! Garmin recommends sending the GTN GPS/NAV/COM and the ES transponder into the shop to make sure that whatever soot got in won't cause a problem. The rest of the avionics are apparently sealed and soot-proof.

Yes, it's a flat rate repair ($), but that's their business model, and an inflight electrical emergency could ruin your entire day, as the saying goes. And the insurance should cover this.
 
If this was my aircraft I'd be very concerned about the amount of heat involved here as well as penetration of soot/smoke into places you can't see well. Enough heat to melt overhead fixtures, enough to seriously damage the metal structure of the hangar, enough to warp fiberglass parts. What kind of parts could be damaged in hidden places? Laird mentioned avionics. Where else might soot be that could affect airworthiness (fuel system, induction system, etc)?

Thanks for the heads up, but all of the serious heat damage was in nearby hangars. In my hangar, the heat was up at the ceiling where the light fixtures were. The walls in my hangar were unaffected -- no paint peeling, even. Only the one navlight cover was affected, and it was warped.

Soot, yes, taking that seriously. See previous post. Also, pitot/static/AOA lines will be cleared.
 
At KFLY, where I built my plane, there was a fire at the end hanger (non-airplane related cause), that didn't spread past the end hangers but sadly all of the planes (10 or so) were totaled by the insurance companies. As mentioned above, there is a lot of hidden damage and potential for corrosive gas that penetrates far from the flames. I sorry you are going through all of this, but I think you should be very cautious about anything other than taking an check from your insurance company for the value of your plane.
 
Me too

We had a Navion crash into my T hangar about 4 bays down and it burned. A friend called and I ran strait there and pulled my plane out. There was a lot of smoke but no heat and a little soot on top of the surfaces. I pulled it immediately to the water pump and hosed all the soot off. It all seemed to rinse away.

That was almost three years ago and no corrosion or avionics issues.

Guess I got lucky
 

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Hi Ed,

Good luck with your plane. If the temp exceeded 250F, replace all your elastic stop nuts, aluminum Cherrymax rivets, AN hardware whose cad plating was affected. Also, have the temper of your aluminum airframe tested to insure the temper is still good. Eddy current testing can show temper. I hope everything works out well for you.

Bob
 
Injured

We had a Navion crash into my T hangar about 4 bays down and it burned. A friend called and I ran strait there and pulled my plane out. There was a lot of smoke but no heat and a little soot on top of the surfaces. I pulled it immediately to the water pump and hosed all the soot off. It all seemed to rinse away.

That was almost three years ago and no corrosion or avionics issues.

Guess I got lucky

In case someone is wondering there were no fatalities (4 injured) in this crash. (amazing) I think I have this stat correct.
 
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Hi Ed,

Good luck with your plane. If the temp exceeded 250F, replace all your elastic stop nuts, aluminum Cherrymax rivets, AN hardware whose cad plating was affected. Also, have the temper of your aluminum airframe tested to insure the temper is still good. Eddy current testing can show temper. I hope everything works out well for you.

Bob

The acrylic canopy will begin to soften at just over 200°F so if there is no indication of any change in the canopy, it is a good indicator that the temperature did not get high enough to cause any other material damage to the airplane.
That coupled with the fact that the canopy is near the High Point of the airplane and everything below that would probably be exposed to even lower temperatures.
 
Since Bob mentioned the possibility of airframe heat damage, here's the actual data. This is from MMPDS, the follow-on to MIL-HDBK-5. These are the compendiums of strength data of metals that the FAA, the military, NASA and other entities use for approving new vehicles or products.

Temp vs Time.png

It's pretty clear. Choose an exposure temperature, estimate the time spent at that temperature, and read the expected residual strength on the left.

If it were me and the canopy were okay, I'd know that the rest of the airfrape probably was, too.

Dave
 
Here's the preliminary aircraft status (I'm waiting till I can get in to the hangar to check on personal property before I drive out to the airport again to check the plane more closely)

* Given that the canopy is apparently not showing any obvious distortion, the plane as a whole probably did not get all that hot
* Melted plastic from fluorescent light fixtures dripped on the plane, including the canopy. Given the lack of obvious distortion on the canopy, it seems unlikely that any sheet metal was heated significantly.
* The plexiglass cover on the left nav light was warped, and I don't recall if the one on the other side was, but I doubt it. The left wingtip was closest to the hangar wall shared with the Grumman Cheetah that suffered heat damage enough to melt the headliner and probably the canopy. My guess is that the nav light cover was subject to radiant heat. That same wall had a leaf blower on it, but I don't know what damage the leaf blower sustained.

The "plan" at this point is to have a safety of flight inspection in a few weeks, when the shop can get around to it. This will involve:
* Pulling the cowling to look for soot in the engine, including through the oil door
* Removing any possible soot from pitot, AOA, static lines
* Sending avionics to Garmin for removal of any soot in the cooling vents. This is awaiting insurance company approval
* Overall external inspection

The big inspection will be 30 days after the fire, to see if any soot started corrosion. Such corrosion would cause the insurance company to total the airplane. If the plane passes the soot inspection, an annual will be performed because the plane will already be apart and the airframe inspected.

We will see...
 
Ed, The canopy remaining intact and undamaged is great news! Good luck with the soot. Hopefully, there will be no corrosion from that. Good luck. Bob
 
Ed, this is a serious bummer man. Out of curiosity and to see if there is anything a guy should watch out for, do you know what started the fire with the 182? Mine lives in a T-hangar with a 172 next to me.
 
Ed, this is a serious bummer man. Out of curiosity and to see if there is anything a guy should watch out for, do you know what started the fire with the 182? Mine lives in a T-hangar with a 172 next to me.

The unofficial word is that the initiation was that material under the wing caught fire, not the plane itself.

The insurance investigator was adamant that planes should have corrosion proofing.
 
Sorry to hear this. All the best. It reminds me of a fire about 25 years ago. A guy working a fiberglass boat in his hanger caused a fire, and toasted a brand new just finished RV6 in hanger next to the fire. Further away was a friends L4 (Military J3). It was covered in soot.

As far as heat damage to aluminum metal, continuity test and hardness test will show if it was heat damaged. As far as finishes good outcome I hope.
 
For what it’s worth…

Those covers are not very heat resistant. My old-school non-LED wingtip strobe basically melted one over time.

* The plexiglass cover on the left nav light was warped, and I don't recall if the one on the other side was, but I doubt it. The left wingtip was closest to the hangar wall shared with the Grumman Cheetah that suffered heat damage enough to melt the headliner and probably the canopy. My guess is that the nav light cover was subject to radiant heat.
 
Whose insurance covers what in this case? Is the hangar occupant where the fire started held responsible for the damage to other planes?
 
Those covers are not very heat resistant. My old-school non-LED wingtip strobe basically melted one over time.

I would agree, that vinyl is not the same Tg as the plexiglass canopy. ~150F vs 300F+ from general specs I can find.

There must have been a significant temperature gradient for the fixtures to melt.

This thread sure has me thinking more deeply about my own safety actions in the hangar and at home. I do have metal cans to collect all solvent affected towels - and keep a lid on it. But it is grease and oil that is more likely to generate an exotherm/autoignition event and a hot hangar gets closer to the limits. We complain that some airports don't allow construction in hangars and maybe should use this to look within and review our personal practices.

Ed, just sick about your situation, it could happen to us too.
 
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Whose insurance covers what in this case? Is the hangar occupant where the fire started held responsible for the damage to other planes?

Fortunately for us we don't have to worry about that. We file our claim with our own insurance agency - and they will go subrogate it downstream after the fact.
 
The corrosion of soot as a cause to total a plane is so heartbreaking because it all looks fine from the outside. I wonder how long it would take for it to be an actual safety of flight concern. This is a rare event thank goodness. I also wander how much soot gets in the joints between pieces.

It seems to me that it would be a very slow process and some amount of inspection work could mitigate the risk.

And I’ll add to the primer lists: if it is all primed is the corrosion failure risk well mitigated? I’ve no idea if your interior is primed or not.
 
We own a lot of student housing apartments in different states so I am used to dealing with fire and smoke damage. If it were an apartment fire I would not be as concerned with hidden corrosion. Just guessing on a hangar fire, I would think most of the smoke was from oil and other lubricants and petroleum products?

I am about the same age as Ed. As long as the airplane and equipment checked out and I could clean it to get the smell out, I think I would hope the insurance company totaled the plane. I would buy it back at a much lower price and have cheap flying the rest of my flying days. I wouldnt worry as much about the airframe corrosion since it would most likely last longer than I will be flying anyway.

It may be worth taking your time and see if it starts and how it runs. Good luck Ed. If you were closer I would let you fly my plane when you wanted!!
 
God forbid, but if the aircraft is totalled I wonder if Vans might be interested in it, do a long term study of the effects of soot corrosion on the airframe?

Just trying to make lemonade.....
 
Fortunately for us we don't have to worry about that. We file our claim with our own insurance agency - and they will go subrogate it downstream after the fact.

Not sure it’s fortunately ?? So a hangar 2 doors down creates a fire and it is fortunate that we have to make a claim and now for the next 3 years + we can’t get insurance even though we were not at fault? What about the million dollar liability we all carry? Is this accurate information?

Buying you airframe back might sound ok but you will fly it with no insurance (can you even get liability) and have zero ability to sell it when you are done flying a questionable (and smelly) airframe.
 
Not sure it’s fortunately ?? So a hangar 2 doors down creates a fire and it is fortunate that we have to make a claim and now for the next 3 years + we can’t get insurance even though we were not at fault? What about the million dollar liability we all carry? Is this accurate information?

Buying you airframe back might sound ok but you will fly it with no insurance (can you even get liability) and have zero ability to sell it when you are done flying a questionable (and smelly) airframe.

Clarification: I can't get insurance from any OTHER company, but I can still get it through the same company.

Thought I wrote that...
 
Ed I too am curious why the other owners insurance isn't covering this. Unless of course he had none...
 
Not sure it’s fortunately ?? So a hangar 2 doors down creates a fire and it is fortunate that we have to make a claim and now for the next 3 years + we can’t get insurance even though we were not at fault? What about the million dollar liability we all carry? Is this accurate information?

Buying you airframe back might sound ok but you will fly it with no insurance (can you even get liability) and have zero ability to sell it when you are done flying a questionable (and smelly) airframe.

Fortunate? Yes, I do consider it fortunate that if this happened to me, I would not have to chase umpteen different entities to find one to cover my airplane. The fire was a bad thing, no doubt - but your question was about who covers it for the airplane owner. That answer is YOUR INSURANCE carrier. If someone else is ultimately at fault, THEY will go chase them down and settle with them so you don't have to - but your claim with them will be cleaned up for you long before that is settled and you don't have to worry about that. So yes, I do consider myself fortunate in that aspect.

As for what happens to the airplane afterward, that's a whole different story.
 
Ed I too am curious why the other owners insurance isn't covering this. Unless of course he had none...

I NEVER WROTE THAT!!!!

What I wrote is that after I file a claim for a totaled airplane, NO OTHER CARRIER will write ME a policy for three years. I'll still get coverage with my original carrier for future aircraft.
 
I NEVER WROTE THAT!!!!

What I wrote is that after I file a claim for a totaled airplane, NO OTHER CARRIER will write ME a policy for three years. I'll still get coverage with my original carrier for future aircraft.

Whoa, sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm very confused now. If you file a claim through HIS insurance it still dings you in the eyes of your insurance? I'm trying to understand here. I'm still unclear on whose insurance this would process through. It also doesn't make sense to me that if it went through his that you would still take a hit but insurance will be insurance. Sorry if I'm not understanding.
 
Would the other guy’s insurance cover the loss if the hangar fire didn’t start in, or because of, his aircraft?
 
On the issue of submitting a claim to the OTHER insurance co., I spent some time over the years in the the insurance/reinsurance claim space. So to help clarify, here's are few key points;
  • You have the option to pursue a claim against a 3rd party (in this case the owner of the 182) but it can present challenges and the time required to resolve will be a large multiple of the time required to have YOUR insurance co. handle the claim
  • Should you choose to make a claim against the 3rd party, you will be alleging negligence in order to recover your damages. You (or your attorney) will have to investigate, gather the facts, assess damages and advance a theory of liability against the 3rd party.
  • In order to recover, ideally you would prevail on each of 4 elements of negligence: 1) Duty owed (don't create or maintain a hazardous condition in your hanger 2) Duty breached (hypothetical:the 3rd party left oil soaked debris in hanger and also left a space heater on full to run overnight which caused ignition and subsequent fire). 3) Proximate Cause: The alleged negligence was the root cause of damages, (i.e., the fire was caused by the negligence vs. some other action such as a short circuit at the hanger circuit breaker) and 4) Damages (My aircraft paint is shot due to heat, soot, falling structure, etc. The cost of repair is $XX,XXX)
As (or after) you do the above, the insurance company for the 3rd Party will conduct their own investigation to independently access the potential liability of their policy holder. If they don't agree that you have met the burden of proof on the 4 elements of negligence, they may choose to deny the claim. Your next step (assuming you don't want to quit at this point) would be to retain an attorney and file suit. This is when the real fun begins.

Be sure to ask your attorney if they will be willing to take the case for less than 33% of the total you MIGHT eventually recover. Also don't forget to ask your attorney who will pay for the required litigation expenses (including Court Costs, Expert Witness Fees, etc.)

As you can imagine, the time and energy to pursue a liability claim against a 3rd party might cause you to choose to take the simpler route of submitting the claim to YOUR insurer, in which case YOUR insurance co. settles with you according to the policy terms. Following that, YOUR insurance co. attempts recovery funds they paid against the 3rd party or their insurer ("subrogation"). Bottom line: Working the claim through YOUR insurance co. can save you huge amounts of time and aggravation.
 
Just out of curiousity, who told you that you can't get insurance anywhere else?

The third party investigator who has hired by the insurance company that insured my plane and, coincidentally, the plane in the next hangar. He's been doing claims adjustments for 42 years, and knows just a whole heap about airplanes.

Reasonable question!
 
The third party investigator who has hired by the insurance company that insured my plane and, coincidentally, the plane in the next hangar. He's been doing claims adjustments for 42 years, and knows just a whole heap about airplanes.

Reasonable question!

Why don't you ask someone in a better position to answer the question, like your insurance broker (or even *an* insurance broker if you don't have one). Or better yet, your insurance company itself.

In short, he's an investigator, not an insurance sales agent. I don't ask my lawyer's legal secretary for legal advice, for example, even though I'm sure she "knows just a whole heap about the law".
 
The third party investigator who has hired by the insurance company that insured my plane and, coincidentally, the plane in the next hangar. He's been doing claims adjustments for 42 years, and knows just a whole heap about airplanes.

Reasonable question!

Ed, you are in a somewhat similar position I was back in February of this year. My -4 was sprayed with a corrosive ABC fire extinguisher by a troubled individual that broke into the airport and hangar. The plane was totaled even after I spent 15+ hours of cleaning every nook and cranny of it. Insurance pretty much immediately totaled it once they got pics of the type of fire extinguisher and the plane pre and post cleaning.

My incident was different as it was criminal in nature and there was zero chance of it being an accident. It involved going to court and other fun items, but the insurance process is the same as far as your involvement would be.

My insurance broker also told me the same thing about being insured again after an incident. They cut me a check. I was then paid for the storage of the plane until it was picked up after being sold at salvage auction. The only folks that would write me a policy were the ones who I were with previously. I found a better equipped plane across the country only a couple months later. It's now insured at higher amount (to match current market) than my first. I expected a more expensive premium but I was pleasantly surprised that a higher hull value on another -4 ended up being a cheaper premium after a non moving incident that totaled my other plane. Same underwriters.

If you have any questions about the process I went through, feel free to DM me. I tried to find a way to keep it but insurance did not want to deal with any possible corrosion.
 
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Back out at the plane this afternoon with the adjuster and his new assistant so that she could see what was going on... She comes from an airplane family that runs a salvage yard, and the adjuster has known her for 30 years or so, the majority of life.

A few new findings... the outside air temperature probe is corroded, as is the pitot/AOA probe. There is a 2.25" prop extension that may or may not be corroded, couldn't tell. There was some soot in the cabin air intakes that might have contributed to the total mess that is the cockpit. Bottom line is that generating a repair estimate will be a big job, as lots of little parts can add up quickly.

Smokey, the RV-9A, goes into the shop end of this week or early next week for a repair estimate. The insurance company will come back with a plan two weeks or so after that.

I'll post this separately, but if anybody knows of RV-9 wings and tail surfaces for sale, those might be cheaper to buy than disassembling and re-riveting those parts on Smokey. Or maybe the fuselage, too, preferably a slider.
 
Personally, I would have already told them to stop screwing around and cut me a check and to get that thing out of the hangar. It’s totaled and they need to get over it. I have seen much less damage to airplanes where the adjuster never even bothers to come look at it before declaring it a total loss.

What company underwrites your policy? We need to know who to avoid.
 
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Personally, I would have already told them to stop screwing around and cut me a check and to get that thing out of the hangar. It’s totaled and they need to get over it. I have seen much less damage to airplanes where the adjuster never even bothers to come look at it before declaring it a total loss.

What company underwrites your policy? We need to know who to avoid.

Well, it's my airplane, not yours, and I'm glad that the insurance folks are taking steps to realistically and completely assess the situation. I like the plane and would have a hard time replacing it after all the things I've done to get things the way I like them. And replacing it would take time, too, and I wouldn't be flying in the meantime.

It would be nice if the shop could drop everything else and put my plane at the head of the line for a repair estimate, but that's not realistic. And giving the insurance company a week or two after the repair estimate to make an offer is reasonable as well.

I'm not happy that the fire occurred -- nobody is -- but all parties involved are dealing with it like adults, cooperating, empathizing with each other, and cutting each other slack as needed. And despite the circumstances, we're enjoying each others' company.
 
Well, it's my airplane, not yours, and I'm glad that the insurance folks are taking steps to realistically and completely assess the situation. I like the plane and would have a hard time replacing it after all the things I've done to get things the way I like them. And replacing it would take time, too, and I wouldn't be flying in the meantime.

It would be nice if the shop could drop everything else and put my plane at the head of the line for a repair estimate, but that's not realistic. And giving the insurance company a week or two after the repair estimate to make an offer is reasonable as well.

I'm not happy that the fire occurred -- nobody is -- but all parties involved are dealing with it like adults, cooperating, empathizing with each other, and cutting each other slack as needed. And despite the circumstances, we're enjoying each others' company.

Have fun with that! Apparently you think the insurance underwriter’s people are your friends. Economics will inform you that they are not. If you trust them, you will lose. Best of luck!
 
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Subrogate the problem

Fortunately for us we don't have to worry about that. We file our claim with our own insurance agency - and they will go subrogate it downstream after the fact.

Just go “subrogate” the issue and all will be fine !! I know I would be sleeping well. (Been there done that with an insurance claim on my car, after 2 years still don’t have a clue of the outcome, USAA)
 
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I would love to hear from an insurance broker or rep on what logic is employed in declining to quote someone who suffered a loss that was in no way his fault.
 
While not as dogmatic as Brantel, I get suspicious when an adjuster and a salvage person are close friend and work together on claims. I know of 2 instances where an adjuster and salvage yard made it a practice to work together to take advantage of insurance airframe storage. And even more conflicting for the salvage company to get an inside buddy deal on buying the salvage at a bargain price. While not common and not legal or ethical I have see it twice in my 40 plus years of aircraft ownership, including one pair of back scratchers I knew locally.
 
While not as dogmatic as Brantel, I get suspicious when an adjuster and a salvage person are close friend and work together on claims. I know of 2 instances where an adjuster and salvage yard made it a practice to work together to take advantage of insurance airframe storage. And even more conflicting for the salvage company to get an inside buddy deal on buying the salvage at a bargain price. While not common and not legal or ethical I have see it twice in my 40 plus years of aircraft ownership, including one pair of back scratchers I knew locally.

How can you measure the amount of trust to put in your insurance adjuster/insurance company/sales person/potential business partner

Use the "Trust Quotient". Solve for T.

T = C+I+R
SI

Where T = Trust; C = Credibility; I = Integrity; R= Reliability; SI = Self Interest (locate the SI denominator under C+R+I)
 
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