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Ready to Start, but the primer debate has me anxious

T

TheBoatLife

Member
So that’s where I stand. I received the empennage kit, it’s inventoried, and ready for me to begin. But the primer decision has me anxious.

I’ve read so much about primer and paint that at the moment I feel like it’s overload, and also a decision I should have made before the first part of the kit was even delivered.

I’m starting my build in the basement, just the first parts of the tail, but eventually I will be continuing this build in our single car garage in Connecticut. It’s not ideal but for now it’s what I have available to work with. No insulation, no heat. I feel it’s going to be a challenge to build without a two car heated garage and add to that I really don’t have the space for a paint booth.

I know the minimum required parts to prime are listed in Van’s plans, but i feel like if things were perfect with space and time I’d probably spray primer everything, but it’s not a perfect situation. Any suggestions on how to do more than the minimum but without the paint booth setup?

I feel like I’ve heard the suggestion to just buy the self etching primer rattlecans from the hardware store and just lightly spray the interior edge of parts that have a seam or edge on the exterior.

I know ‘to primer or not’ is an ongoing debate but at the moment I’m just at one of those “what have I gotten myself into” points. And it’s stopping me even right now from going down to the basement and doing Step 1.
 
This is something you're going to have to figure out for yourself, but it it helps, I'll point out that up until I guess sometime in the 90's, The big guys (Cessna/Beech/Piper) either didn't offer internal primer at all, or charged extra for the option. Whether it added any value at all was hugely dependent on where the airplane spent the majority of its life.

I live in the midwest and in addition to the extrusions that require priming because they aren't al-clad I primed the internal mating surfaces. I just used a good self etching rattle can primer.

If I still lived in Arizona I wouldn't have bothered and if I lived in Florida I would have covered every square inch with the best primer I could find.

Something to consider; Analysis paralysis will kill your productivity on a project like this. You've got several options, one of them is probably better that the rest for a given situation, but it's not like any of them are really bad. pick one with the information you have today and move on. Bigger decisions are coming.
 
I wouldn’t let this issue cause you much stress. The truth is you probably don’t need to prime anything other than what Van’s says to prime. Having said that I’m priming everything because I hope to fly my RV-8 for another 40 years or so and I live close to the coast. It’s probably still not necessary for me to prime but I do it just in case.

I’m also building in my basement, in a space that is only about 14’ x 25’. It’s a tight fit with the fuselage taking a lot of space but it’s doable. I built a small open paint booth that is about 4’ by 2’. It doesn’t have an exhaust fan. I have it just so I can hang parts and better control overspray. Before I had this “booth” I just placed the parts on scrap cardboard on my work bench and sprayed in the open.

I use EkoPrime, which is a water based primer. It works well enough and because it’s not toxic, I don’t have to worry about venting to the outside. I just keep overspray to a minimum and use a respirator and shop air filter while I’m spraying. I would stay away from solvent based primers in your situation because they require a proper booth and exhaust. That includes spray can primer. The alternative is that you can use those primers and spray outside.

Good luck with your build. You’ll figure out what works best for you as you go along.
 
I was where you were once. Read all I could find on the subject, talked with some builders, etc. In the end I went with a 2k epoxy primer. Here is my rational. I am going to do all the same prep no matter the paint I use. I am going to do it once, and this is my great big plane building project. The paint I selected is just as safe to use as the rattle cans, and about the same price, maybe cheaper. I got one of the better Harbor Freight HVLP spray guns, and their disposable paint cup system (already had a compressed so why not use it). The 2K primer is supper strong and durable. It just does not come off when handling the parts. I have even had to dimple some holes after priming, and the paint did well. The one caveat to all this, is the drying time. I give it a day or two before working with the parts. That includes painting the opposite side. I use Kirker Enduro primer. All this is not to say other paints will not work. Clearly, some have used no paint on things like the skins, and that worked for them. You just need to decide what you want for your project. If you do go with something like the 2K, batch up your parts. I went beyond the instructions where it states to rivet. I just kept everything clecoed, and continued with the structure. When I got to a logical point, I disassembled, prepped and primed. I also used Alumiprep and Alodine, so maybe I am a little more pedantic then some. Good luck with it, and have fun.
 
I was where you are. I found a great tech advisor and he told me to just spray a very light coat of NAPA 7220 on all parts after wiping them down with acetone. So, that’s what I’ve been doing. You can obsess over things like this, or you can build an airplane. If you try to do both, odds are you’ll be in the majority that never actually finish.

As for your shop area, I ran into a guy with a beautiful RV 6 at a southern Mn airport once. He told me he built it in a one bedroom apartment in the Minneapolis area. I thought he was FOS until he showed me pictures. Use what you have. These builds take a long time. Odds are, where you start you’re build will not be where you finish it.
 
Don't let this issue stop you from building! If you don't have the space for a paint booth and your space isn't heated, I wouldn't prime the parts. It will take you a while to prep all the parts for an assembly (vertical stabilizer or whatever) so just start prepping the parts while you continue to think about this priming issue. That way you'll make progress building while continuing to think about priming.

After months of thinking about it I decided to prime (with Akzo) even though I live in a dry climate. But, I have a 16'x8' paint booth and I'm building in a heated hangar. I've got a good system down for priming now and it only adds one day per assembly but it was a stressful ordeal initially. Not priming would make the build more enjoyable.
 
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A few observations:

The 1957 C-172 that I owned until 2017 showed little to no corrosion. Midwest aircraft, hard life, 60 years old.

Priming will increase your build time substantially. I decided to prime with P60G2 and it increased my time by roughly 25%. Using other processes or epoxy would likely take more time. When I build my next RV, I will likely NOT prime.

Obviously, cost will increase both in time and dollars.

RVs are typically babied, ie washed and waxed while spending most of their life in a hangar.

Do you want to build an aircraft that will last for 100 years or 150 years?

In the end, the choice is yours; the only wrong decision is no decision.
 
MAr-Hyde is a good rattle can self etch primer. I acid etched and alodined my parts (in a tub) so they basically got got coated twice. Then sprayed them with the Mar-Hyde. It was a good system, garage friendly and very little clean up.
I would guess that the airplanes I've done that with will be around in 50 years and I won't! So.......
 
Thank you all for your replies, I’ve definitely got a case of “Analysis Paralysis” at the moment. In addition to the great technical knowledge I’ve found on this forum it’s great to have some of the other support from experienced builders too.
 
TheBoatLife said:
Thank you all for your replies, I’ve definitely got a case of “Analysis Paralysis” at the moment. In addition to the great technical knowledge I’ve found on this forum it’s great to have some of the other support from experienced builders too.
Click to expand...
I started my Van's journey in 1990 with an RV-6. Yes I primed even with a couple different color primers. Bad Idea. I have two RV-6 now and if I built again I would not prime except the required parts.
WHY is the real question.
Thousand of spam cans are still flying and have no big problems.
Start pounding rivets
My luck varies Fixit
 
What I know; some primer is better than no primer. But I use rattle can primer rarely and only on assemblies that are going together (as in once together the rattle can primer is sandwiched between parts). If you are going to prime use a real primer.

A paint booth is not needed for priming, just do it outside. The problem to manage is getting decent weather to prime. I found that just fabricating parts and making “priming piles” was the way to keep building while waiting on these now much fewer but bigger priming sessions.

Carl
 
I’ll play devils advocate. If you don’t have a reasonable logistical plan for the complete build you probably shouldn’t start.
 
I started in 1992 (how is THAT possible?) and was in the old-style 1940's single car garage. You could almost touch both walls with outstretched arms! I got through the canoe stage in that garage before moving to my hangar.

I think the people you might want to talk to, being from CT, are the local mechanics in your area, as many as you can get talking. Ask them what they see when they unscrew/pop off those inspection covers to peek inside the wings etc. My years working as a mechanic, having done many pre-buy inspections on airplanes from salty, humid climates (which is anywhere east of the Rocky Mountains, at least the HUMID part!) and seeing a number of airplanes with the clusters of "snow flakes" of corrosion convinced me I needed to prime everything! (I can still see one C-182 from Florida! :oops: :oops: :oops:) On the internal parts, it doesn't take much: almost a light 'dusting'; enough to just cover the aluminum. The printing on the aluminum still shows through on mine. Some people just prime where the aluminum parts mate up; ie, where there are rivets. It's your choice, of course. I used a paint gun from somewhere (no Harbor Freight in those days) that I still have and use, run off my old compressor. I used Dupont VeriPrime, a two part epoxy that might not even be available. There are a lot of choices there as well.

My paint booth? The garage and the Great Outdoor Paint Booth. You have to choose your days. I painted the entire Cub in a small hangar with no exhaust fan! I did have some painting experience but there are plenty of UTube videos on what to do, not to mention some pretty good.......what were those called?.......oh, yeah: BOOKS!

Congratulations on starting your project! Go out and do a little or a lot of something every day. There will be days you will go out, look for a few minutes, and turn around and go back in the house!

Keep us up-to-date!
 

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I was intimidated by EVERYTHING. I've never worked with much of anything, but my family always has.

I chose the Akzo stuff. It's expensive. It stinks. It has some precautions required. It's also resilient, fantastic stuff. I had read people wearing darn near full body armor and exhaust fans in purpose built fortresses. All intimidating.

NOTHING I've done (we're working on wings) is nearly as hard as what has been memorialized here. I've not gotten to the tanks, but I have done a bit with proseal. But look at Rick Gatti's proseal post and move on.

Just start. Lesser people than those here have been successful. So can you.

Also, PM sent.

Mike
 
Two things to consider. If you're going with a Quickbuild Fuse it will come primed, and my thinking was that it would look weird to have a primed fuse and unprimed tail section. Secondly, you're going to prime the fuse eventually and paint the interior. I think it would be easier to prime parts as you go instead of trying to clean it up enough to prime and finish paint assembled. I used SEM self-etching rattle cans. Definitely not as effective as spraygun wash or two-part primers, but I'm happy with the results.
 
Don't over think it. How the aircraft is kept is much more important than wether its primed. But here in the UK we have to prime everything.
 
There’s a reason this is in the never-ending debate section. Those who primed will insist that you MUST prime. Those who didn;t prime will say don’t bother. I’ve primed and I have not primed, partly depending on what I started with (Quick Built primed, Quick built unprimed, slow build unprimed…..). Pick one and start - build the airplane you want, not the one others want you to build…..
 
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I don't see this thread as debating the merits of prime vs no prime. The OP will be building in his basement. No paint booth, no ventilation. Not a good place to be painting even if you wanted to. Once he moves to the single car garage he could set up a teeny-tiny paint booth and get some ventilation but the space is unheated. Again, not an ideal place to be painting but way better than the basement.

If he wants to prime, I would do the priming in the garage even if he's building in the basement. The primer may not set up properly if it's too cold but at least he can get some ventilation. This is especially important if he wants to prime with something like Akzo. I look like I'm cleaning up nuclear waste when I get suited up to prime with Akzo.
 
bertschb said:
I don't see this thread as debating the merits of prime vs no prime. The OP will be building in his basement. No paint booth, no ventilation. Not a good place to be painting even if you wanted to. Once he moves to the single car garage he could set up a teeny-tiny paint booth and get some ventilation but the space is unheated. Again, not an ideal place to be painting but way better than the basement.

If he wants to prime, I would do the priming in the garage even if he's building in the basement. The primer may not set up properly if it's too cold but at least he can get some ventilation. This is especially important if he wants to prime with something like Akzo. I look like I'm cleaning up nuclear waste when I get suited up to prime with Akzo.
Click to expand...
Agreed. This is why I’d recommend EkoPrime if he wants to prime and has to prime in his basement. I wouldn’t spray Akzo or similar primers inside my home unless I had a professional quality spray booth.
 
to add; to "vlittle" post #20, of his ""My contribution:"".........after me speed reading the pdf, skip to page 94, for good ideas, and then go and read WHOLE pdf...



YMMV....good day /rick
 
This is a case of building the airplane you have the facilities for. Doing everything with epoxy primer is simply not going to be possible, but don't let it stop you from building.

With the ventilation problems, do as little priming as possible. Only what's needed. One doesn't want their basement, then the rest of the house filled with carcinogenic paint fumes.

In the warm weather, use the garage to prime and paint the cockpit.
 
Here's my thread on this topic. I'm really happy we made these selections.

Primer report: SEM self-etching primer

Hi team RV, As a new builder, one of the scariest decisions we make is our solution to the "primer wars". I want to report my results for our approach, which TLDR; turned out great. Lets assume you have decided to prime. You are now confronted with the following challenges: What equipment...
vansairforce.net vansairforce.net
 
TheBoatLife said:
So that’s where I stand. I received the empennage kit, it’s inventoried, and ready for me to begin. But the primer decision has me anxious.

I’ve read so much about primer and paint that at the moment I feel like it’s overload, and also a decision I should have made before the first part of the kit was even delivered.

I’m starting my build in the basement, just the first parts of the tail, but eventually I will be continuing this build in our single car garage in Connecticut. It’s not ideal but for now it’s what I have available to work with. No insulation, no heat. I feel it’s going to be a challenge to build without a two car heated garage and add to that I really don’t have the space for a paint booth.

I know the minimum required parts to prime are listed in Van’s plans, but i feel like if things were perfect with space and time I’d probably spray primer everything, but it’s not a perfect situation. Any suggestions on how to do more than the minimum but without the paint booth setup?

I feel like I’ve heard the suggestion to just buy the self etching primer rattlecans from the hardware store and just lightly spray the interior edge of parts that have a seam or edge on the exterior.

I know ‘to primer or not’ is an ongoing debate but at the moment I’m just at one of those “what have I gotten myself into” points. And it’s stopping me even right now from going down to the basement and doing Step 1.
Click to expand...
Hey, this primer topic is really like politics. But let me give you this to think about, regardless of all pros and cons: Why would all "professional builds" prime parts if there wasn't a reason behind it? I don't know any commercial aircraft is built bare metal. And BTW, no commercial operations use rattlecans.
 
I'm not saying I don't prime, but primer adds weight, some more than others. The lighter the RV the better it will fly
 
bmellis11 said:
I wouldn’t let this issue cause you much stress. The truth is you probably don’t need to prime anything other than what Van’s says to prime. Having said that I’m priming everything because I hope to fly my RV-8 for another 40 years or so and I live close to the coast. It’s probably still not necessary for me to prime but I do it just in case.

I’m also building in my basement, in a space that is only about 14’ x 25’. It’s a tight fit with the fuselage taking a lot of space but it’s doable. I built a small open paint booth that is about 4’ by 2’. It doesn’t have an exhaust fan. I have it just so I can hang parts and better control overspray. Before I had this “booth” I just placed the parts on scrap cardboard on my work bench and sprayed in the open.

I use EkoPrime, which is a water based primer. It works well enough and because it’s not toxic, I don’t have to worry about venting to the outside. I just keep overspray to a minimum and use a respirator and shop air filter while I’m spraying. I would stay away from solvent based primers in your situation because they require a proper booth and exhaust. That includes spray can primer. The alternative is that you can use those primers and spray outside.

Good luck with your build. You’ll figure out what works best for you as you go along.
Click to expand...
I second the Ekoprime from Stewart’s Systems. I really like its ease of use and has excellent corrosion protection. I now roll the interiors of the flat skins with a foam roller and getting excellent results.
 
The good news is that I’ve started, and once again thanks to everyone that offered up some advice. I think a few of you saw clearer than me that perhaps my hesitation was more the building space I have rather than if I wanted to prime or not. I do have to “build the plane I have the facilities for” and while it’s not perfect I know people before me have had less ideal spaces and finished the job.
 
You are right to think very seriously about what your corrosion protection system is going to be at this early stage of your build.

In your restricted workshop space I would suggest the non-toxic Stewart Systems products over rattle-can etch primer for minimal fumes, and you could probably use brush or roller to avoid filling your basement with overspray. You can buy Alodine pens which are excellent for treating joints and small to medium sized parts before priming.

As for prime or not-to-prime – if your aircraft is going to be operated in a coastal or humid climate, corrosion will become an issue. Yes the plane could still outlast you if you do nothing, but you may be chasing and fixing corrosion at each annual. If you live in a dry, inland climate then sure, consider building without any corrosion protection. Either way, after the plane is completed and exterior painted you could consider having the interior spaces fogged with corrosion proofing compounds such as Ardrox or ACF-50.
 
Hey man, I started and am still building in my basement. I have measured and planned for a way to get the components out of the single door when the time comes. Check my build log if you want to see how far I’ve gotten. I sure hope you are on a hangar waiting list so you can keep your bird safe when it’s done and you can move there when you get one to continue the build. It does take a bit of planning at my current spot in the build like delaying certain things that are suppose to be done now, ie. attaching the steps, top skins, riveting the baggage floors, setting wing incidence, etc. Overall I think having it in the basement has helped me maintain constant progress in the build because it’s only a few feet away.
As for the priming and being in the basement , I chose to only prime what is necessary and the items I felt absolutely needed to be. I used SEM EZ-COAT with great success and from what I’ve been told is a better option than just a ”primer” . Its rattle can and is quite resistant to scratches and such. I sure hope a hangar comes available soon so I can get this thing in the air. At this point, there’s a good chance the canopy, wheels/gear and engine mount will be installed In the basement, they can all be unbolted to move it.
Build on brother.
 
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