Monkworkz 2023 Oshkosh Presentation

[monkworkz]

Greetings,

Many thanks to everyone who attended my Oshkosh presentation today reliable amateur built electrical systems, it was a pleasure and honor to have you attend.

Here is a link to the slides.

Please view them in presentation mode because there are a few slides that change as you click through.

Eventually I'll do a video running through the slides.

Thanks!

Bill

 

[Freemasm]

Interesting. You utilized a schematic that I posted here as an example of a "problem" in your presentation. Maybe your associated lecture offered additional insight but your statements needs to be accompanied by your assumptions. Some people like/take comfort in the ability to isolate systems/buses. If the intention is for safe flight could continue with either main bus inop and no pilot action required, what do you propose for isolation in the event there is an issue; having the pilot remember which devices are dioded/bussed together and pulling associated fuses/breakers until the issue is under control?

So with your philosophy, why wouldn't you diode every source to every bus?

Some personally want to limit diode dependency in electrical architecture in cases where they can be reasonably avoided. That is a preference. Of course, I don't expect anyone to disagree with you but posting something as a problem without knowing all boundary conditions, mission intent, etc. is less than responsible, IMO.

 

[RV6_flyer]

Cannot ever get everyone to agree on everything. There will always be someone that thinks they have a "better way."

Bill:
I was great to meet you after more than 10-years knowing you. Your presentation showed me that we think alike and have the same people we respect that know more than we do.

Was glad to be able to provide assistance to you over a decade ago.

 

[dmattmul]

Hopefully you where there ?

Interesting. You utilized a schematic that I posted here as an example of a "problem" in your presentation. Maybe your associated lecture offered additional insight but your statements needs to be accompanied by your assumptions. Some people like/take comfort in the ability to isolate systems/buses. If the intention is for safe flight could continue with either main bus inop and no pilot action required, what do you propose for isolation in the event there is an issue; having the pilot remember which devices are dioded/bussed together and pulling associated fuses/breakers until the issue is under control?

So with your philosophy, why wouldn't you diode every source to every bus?

Some personally want to limit diode dependency in electrical architecture in cases where they can be reasonably avoided. That is a preference. Of course, I don't expect anyone to disagree with you but posting something as a problem without knowing all boundary conditions, mission intent, etc. is less than responsible, IMO.

I’m assuming you were there to listen to the positives and negatives of each diagram? There are of course always SPOF’s and you need to evaluate these one by one as was presented in the discussions.

 

[Thermos]

Hey Bill -

Fellow EE here, I think your presentation is excellent! I couldn't bring myself to buy mil spec switches for my RV-7, but for the RV-15?

Cheers,

Dave

 

[DanH]

Good to meet you Bill.

I don't expect anyone to disagree with you but posting something as a problem without knowing all boundary conditions, mission intent, etc. is less than responsible, IMO.

Might want to wait for the video and hear the verbal presentation.

 

[rv6ejguy]

Been in the business of supplying EFI for airplanes for over 25 years where a good electrical system and backup is paramount. I can tell you from experience that no two people will want/ use the same electrical layout. This is like primer wars- lots of different opinions.

I've talked to Bill at Monkworkz and find him a pretty savvy guy in this field. Certainly worth listening to what he has to say.

As in many fields, it's often better to listen to the people who have been doing something for years as their daily job rather than someone looking in from the outside with limited real world experience and exposure in said field. Theory isn't the same as experience.

KISS is a valid concept in electrical system design. The parts you don't have can't fail and the more components you have can increase the chances of failure as well as possibly muddy understanding and quick reaction in an emergency situation.

 

[monkworkz]

The Voice over matters...

Hi,

This certainly is a primer wars type discussion. Plenty of room for opinion.

For the schematic where I replaced the relays with diodes this is an example of a place where diodes can make your life easier, less moving parts, less stuff to wire, less stuff to think through when you have a problem both in flight and on the ground. All of this stuff needs to be thought through thoroughly. You still need to look at how much current will flow through them and if you can get rid of that much heat, and the use cases you have. If you really want to be able to isolate buses then have at it but there is the downside of the complexity you're adding.

It will be a little while but I'll get a video out with the voice over, and I'll be here to catch the slings and arrows all over again!

Bill

 

[Freemasm]

Been in the business of supplying EFI for airplanes for over 25 years where a good electrical system and backup is paramount. I can tell you from experience that no two people will want/ use the same electrical layout. This is like primer wars- lots of different opinions.

I've talked to Bill at Monkworkz and find him a pretty savvy guy in this field. Certainly worth listening to what he has to say.

As in many fields, it's often better to listen to the people who have been doing something for years as their daily job rather than someone looking in from the outside with limited real world experience and exposure in said field. Theory isn't the same as experience.

KISS is a valid concept in electrical system design. The parts you don't have can't fail and the more components you have can increase the chances of failure as well as possibly muddy understanding and quick reaction in an emergency situation.

I'll guess that's a jab at me. I've actually designed a lot of redundant, dual redundant, fail-safe, fail-op systems including the mechanical, electrical, and control logic in my day. These have many millions of hours of operation in the world. There is a reason that the control logic are secondary to the mechanical safeing for critical systems. The nuclear NAVY is a great example of such. I fully understand KISS but the concept doesn't always lend itself in entirety If so, does that mean we should only be flying behind mags and mechanical FI or carbs?

Should similar diodes be incorporated in this SDS methodology regardless of the years/hours of validation; a replacement to the existing isolation or an addition?

I'll state again that labeling something as a problem without the aforementioned background is not correct.

 

[rv6ejguy]

I'll guess that's a jab at me. I've actually designed a lot of redundant, dual redundant, fail-safe, fail-op systems including the mechanical, electrical, and control logic in my day. These have many millions of hours of operation in the world. There is a reason that the control logic are secondary to the mechanical safeing for critical systems. The nuclear NAVY is a great example of such. I fully understand KISS but the concept doesn't always lend itself in entirety If so, does that mean we should only be flying behind mags and mechanical FI or carbs?

Should similar diodes be incorporated in this SDS methodology regardless of the years/hours of validation; a replacement to the existing isolation or an addition?

I'll state again that labeling something as a problem without the aforementioned background is not correct.

No jab at you. Take a rest. Just what I've observed over many years and thousands of customers. Seen several people who thought they had a better idea than truly experienced folks, only to later end up in a field somewhere because of their "better idea"...

As Bill said, carefully consider everything. I agree with that.