Man these RVs are awesome, CFI style!

[jcarne]

Well as some of you know I have been working towards my CFI and started last summer with my instrument rating, December was Commercial, and this month I finally took and passed my CFI initial on the first attempt.

Now many people have done this before but I just wanted to say how thankful I am for these RV aircraft because I did every one of those check rides in the RV-7A I built. Thanks to Van's for building such a kick *** airplane! It's always fun to see the DPEs reactions to short field takeoffs vs the Cessnas they usually check ride in.

Hopefully this will motivate some of you to build on, trust me its worth it!

 

[elev666]

Your Setting the bar kinda high !

Congratulations on your CFI endorsement Jeremy ! You are one of the most motivated and motivational posters on this site , i’ve been following your progress because I’m slowly building the same aircraft,, my trouble is I have several other planes & many others distractions that draw me away from what is likely my last RV project !
Keep infecting others with your RV enthusiasm. !

 

[andoman]

Congratulations and well done!!!
If you think the DPE's are astonished by typical RV performance, wait till you show the typical private pilot the expansive envelope of their new RV!

 

[vas4vans]

Congratulations, Jeremy! I'm hopefully heading down the same path - my Commercial checkride is scheduled for next month (in my RV-10), then transition to flying right seat in my plane and then start working on the CFI rating in the next year or so.

Q for you - are you planning to teach only in your RV or become more of a "regular" CFI and teach in the usual Cessna/Piper/Diamond sorts?

Are there any concerns about doing the CFI checkride in your RV and then transitioning to teaching in the usual training airplanes? Essentially, I am wondering if I should do my CFI training in a Diamond (I like them the most out of the training planes) or do it in my RV and then switch to Diamond later....

Cheers.

 

[rocketman1988]

caution

Realize that there are specific rules concerning providing training in an experimental aircraft that you own. Search LODA for experimental aircraft for more info. Yes, they eliminated most of the onerous, ill conceived LODA but there are still LODA requirements for providing training in an aircraft that you own.

If you are considering being an instructor in standard GA aircraft, you would be better served getting your CFI in one of those GA aircraft. For example, if you plan on teaching primarily in a 172, you will need to know how to perform and, more importantly, TEACH in the 172. While the skill set learned in the RV will likely be a benefit, the 172 is obviously handles completely different than the RV.

...and students aren't going to be happy if you are not instructor proficient in the airplane they are training in.

 

[BobTurner]

Q for you - are you planning to teach only in your RV or become more of a "regular" CFI and teach in the usual Cessna/Piper/Diamond sorts?

Are there any concerns about doing the CFI checkride in your RV and then transitioning to teaching in the usual training airplanes? Essentially, I am wondering if I should do my CFI training in a Diamond (I like them the most out of the training planes) or do it in my RV and then switch to Diamond later....

Cheers.

Hi Vas,

I can answer some of your questions.As an EAB owner you should already know that it may not be used for compensation or hire. So he (you, I) cannot instruct in our personal EAB unless it is absolutely free, no compensation of any kind. The FAA will issue a waiver (“LODA”) to this rule, but solely for ‘transition training’. Your other question is a judgement question. The FARs are silent when it comes to make/model experience for CFI’s giving instruction in singles (There is a requirement for instruction in twins). I’ll just share what I have done: I won’t give a checkout, primary or instrument instruction in an airplane in which I have zero time. In fact, since I believe part of the job is pointing out small idiosyncrasies, subtle hints, etc., I really want at least 5 hours in type. But what I have done, is give Flight Reviews, or simulated commercial check rides, or similar, to pilots who were fully qualified to act as PIC, and obtained an agreement with them that they would, in fact, be the PIC for that flight. I doubt this would be worth much in court, but at least it puts the idea into their head that they should expect no flying out of me - I’m just there to observe, and critique, on these flights. I’ll admit, there have been times when I’ve been asked to give checkouts in aircraft where I have zero time, and sometimes it’s tempting. But, so far, I’ve always said no. But CFI’s face similar fine judgement calls all the time. e.g., the local flying club just upgraded the avionics in one of their two 182’s. So now they have one 182 with a 2600 rpm O470-S and conventional avionics, and a second with a 2400 rpm O470-U and a new Garmin glass panel with a 500 series autopilot. Although I have 2000 hrs of 182 time I won’t do checkouts in the plane with the new avionics until I get some instruction on the new autopilot. I think it’s important for cfi’s to really understand the systems before trying to instruct someone else on them. As I said, this is just me. The faa is silent on these questions.

 

[BobTurner]

...and students aren't going to be happy if you are not instructor proficient in the airplane they are training in.

Or, if they don’t know what is required. Many moons ago, because of a particularly strange series of events, I found myself flying to San Jose to get a review, and, hopefully sign-off, for my commercial ticket. The first thing the cfi did, after noting the time (so we were ‘on the clock’, I was paying him), was to pull out the PTS and start reading it, so he could figure out what we needed to do. Shoot, I thought he should have already known that, and I wasn’t happy about paying him to read the book. Later, he insisted on shooting a few approaches, even over my objection that they were not required for that license. This is not how you make a good impression on your ‘students’.

 

[jcarne]

Congratulations, Jeremy! I'm hopefully heading down the same path - my Commercial checkride is scheduled for next month (in my RV-10), then transition to flying right seat in my plane and then start working on the CFI rating in the next year or so.

Q for you - are you planning to teach only in your RV or become more of a "regular" CFI and teach in the usual Cessna/Piper/Diamond sorts?

Are there any concerns about doing the CFI checkride in your RV and then transitioning to teaching in the usual training airplanes? Essentially, I am wondering if I should do my CFI training in a Diamond (I like them the most out of the training planes) or do it in my RV and then switch to Diamond later....

Cheers.

Vas, the two Bobs gave pretty good responses. To directly respond though, no I don't intend to teach in my RV primarily because of the LODA requirement and insurance. I will be teaching for a local club in Cherokees and a buddies 172 (I have previous experience with both). I do agree though, don't blindly get into a new aircraft with no time and expect to be on your A game. Spend a few hours in a new aircraft, learn it, then start teaching. If someone really wants to use me for their aircraft then some familiarity flights/training will be on their dime.

However, I slightly disagree with Rocketman on which aircraft to get your CFI in. The RV will force you to be more on top of your game while flying by yourself and while watching a fellow friend/CFI/student do some flying while you teach. (mainly the sensitivity and speed) Also, let's be honest here people, a modern day checkride has some amount of lets call it "gamesmenship" factor and what ever aircraft you are most comfortable in and more likely to hit the standards in is the best aircraft for the job. For example, if I'm teaching a student how to properly fly an approach, hitting my spot within 100' is of minimal concern; not on a checkride though.

Point being, use the aircraft on the checkride you are most comfortable in. After all it may be a $1400 dollar endeavor like it was for me...

Some added tips. 1. Make your own lesson plans, it really helps ingrain things in your mind, but expect this to take SERIOUS time! Prepping for the CFI ride is 80% ground work 2. You will feel almost like you forgot how to fly that first time or two in the right seat. That feeling fades quickly though. Now I'm comfortable and I don't even want to go back to the left seat (gotta get that CFII now) haha

 

[rockwoodrv9]

Jereme,
I did my private check ride in my 9A. It took some work to find someone to do it in my plane but it worked out great. Congratulations - you will be on a heavy soon!

 

[rocketman1988]

I think...

Vas, the two Bobs gave pretty good responses. To directly respond though, no I don't intend to teach in my RV primarily because of the LODA requirement and insurance. I will be teaching for a local club in Cherokees and a buddies 172 (I have previous experience with both). I do agree though, don't blindly get into a new aircraft with no time and expect to be on your A game. Spend a few hours in a new aircraft, learn it, then start teaching. If someone really wants to use me for their aircraft then some familiarity flights/training will be on their dime.

However, I slightly disagree with Rocketman on which aircraft to get your CFI in. The RV will force you to be more on top of your game while flying by yourself and while watching a fellow friend/CFI/student do some flying while you teach. (mainly the sensitivity and speed) Also, let's be honest here people, a modern day checkride has some amount of lets call it "gamesmenship" factor and what ever aircraft you are most comfortable in and more likely to hit the standards in is the best aircraft for the job. For example, if I'm teaching a student how to properly fly an approach, hitting my spot within 100' is of minimal concern; not on a checkride though.

Point being, use the aircraft on the checkride you are most comfortable in. After all it may be a $1400 dollar endeavor like it was for me...

Some added tips. 1. Make your own lesson plans, it really helps ingrain things in your mind, but expect this to take SERIOUS time! Prepping for the CFI ride is 80% ground work 2. You will feel almost like you forgot how to fly that first time or two in the right seat. That feeling fades quickly though. Now I'm comfortable and I don't even want to go back to the left seat (gotta get that CFII now) haha

I think we might be on different pages; If you are going for the CFI for yourself, most certainly take it in the plane you are most comfortable with. If you are going to be actively instructing in a GA airplane, you need to be instructor proficient and comfortable in that GA airplane, else you will be doing you students a great and expensive disservice...

 

[BobTurner]

…..For example, if I'm teaching a student how to properly fly an approach, hitting my spot within 100' is of minimal concern; not on a checkride though.

Point being, use the aircraft on the checkride you are most comfortable in. After all it may be a $1400 dollar endeavor like it was for me...

haha

Amazing how times change. I did my initial cfi in 1989 - right after the faa started requiring that all new cfi applicants had to go to the fsdo for their initial cfi checkride. The oral took all morning, 4 or 5 hours, and many applicants failed it. Also, the fsdo went over the aircraft logbooks with a fine tooth comb, and would call A&Ps if they found something they didn’t like! But once past that, the actual afternoon flight was relatively easy. Of course it had to be in a retractable back then, so I had a rented airplane - not the airplane I was most experienced in, by a long shot. But the fsdo examiner got in, said, ‘I assume you can fly, so don’t bust the class B airspace and you’ll do fine.’ He seemed more concerned that I could talk and fly at the same time, and, rather than perfect flying, could explain every little mistake I made and how I was correcting it. I think it was the easiest checkride I ever had. And, of course, it was also free!

 

[jcarne]

Amazing how times change. I did my initial cfi in 1989 - right after the faa started requiring that all new cfi applicants had to go to the fsdo for their initial cfi checkride. The oral took all morning, 4 or 5 hours, and many applicants failed it. Also, the fsdo went over the aircraft logbooks with a fine tooth comb, and would call A&Ps if they found something they didn’t like! But once past that, the actual afternoon flight was relatively easy. Of course it had to be in a retractable back then, so I had a rented airplane - not the airplane I was most experienced in, by a long shot. But the fsdo examiner got in, said, ‘I assume you can fly, so don’t bust the class B airspace and you’ll do fine.’ He seemed more concerned that I could talk and fly at the same time, and, rather than perfect flying, could explain every little mistake I made and how I was correcting it. I think it was the easiest checkride I ever had. And, of course, it was also free!

I heard a similar story from a friend of mine, he said 1 out of 8 walked out of the FSDO with a pass the day he did his first attempt. Seems people back then were often failed for not having obscure things memorized.

Maybe you know the answer to this Bob but I heard that at some point not too long ago they outsourced all of the CFI stuff to DPEs. The DPEs do seem to take the CFI initial in particular pretty serious though (for good reason). My oral was about 4 hours and the flight was right around 2; pretty typical from others accounts too. The flying was in fact pretty easy and my examiner did a surprising amount of the flying to test teaching (which makes sense). On the debrief he said everything was above average compared to others, especially the FOI stuff. I guess he could tell I was a teacher for a living. haha Sure was nice not having to pay another $175 for that FOI knowledge test.

 

[BobTurner]

I heard a similar story from a friend of mine, he said 1 out of 8 walked out of the FSDO with a pass the day he did his first attempt. Seems people back then were often failed for not having obscure things memorized.

Maybe you know the answer to this Bob but I heard that at some point not too long ago they outsourced all of the CFI stuff to DPEs. The DPEs do seem to take the CFI initial in particular pretty serious though (for good reason). My oral was about 4 hours and the flight was right around 2; pretty typical from others accounts too. The flying was in fact pretty easy and my examiner did a surprising amount of the flying to test teaching (which makes sense). On the debrief he said everything was above average compared to others, especially the FOI stuff. I guess he could tell I was a teacher for a living. haha Sure was nice not having to pay another $175 for that FOI knowledge test.

Yes, the oral pass rate was low. I’m pretty sure (but not positive) that I caught my oral examiner in a mistake (he had a deadpan face, hard to read). He asked me what were the safety and lifesaving equipment requirements if beyond gliding distance to land. I looked at him, asked ‘you mean in a small piston powered airplane, not for hire, operating under part 91? He said yes. I looked right at him, and said, ‘There are none’. He got a little animated, and said ‘look up part 91.xyz and read it.’ I found it, and read aloud ‘beyond gliding distance to shore, …three pyrotechnic flares and life vests for each occupant’. ‘Well?’, he asked. ‘Gee’, I said, turning back to the title of that chapter, ‘large and turbojet airplanes’. ‘I thought this only applied to large and turbojet airplanes.’ He hesitated, blinked, then asked, ‘What is a large airplane? And a turbo jet airplane?’ I answered, and we moved on. But I think the questions got easier after that. I also remember that the correct answer to every FOI question was ‘motivation’!
History: At some point, around 1987 or so, someone at the FAA decided that there were too many ill-prepared students failing flight tests, and the reason must be that there are too many bad cfi’s that were being passed by the DPEs. So the fix was to require all new cfi applicants to go to the fsdo for their checkrides. But pretty soon the wait times for the fsdo got long (1988 standard of ‘long’ was a few weeks) so after a while the tests went back to the DPEs. But not every DPE. He/she had to have some sort of special authorization to give initial cfi check rides. I think that’s still the case, today.

 

[jcarne]

Yes, the oral pass rate was low. I’m pretty sure (but not positive) that I caught my oral examiner in a mistake (he had a deadpan face, hard to read). He asked me what were the safety and lifesaving equipment requirements if beyond gliding distance to land. I looked at him, asked ‘you mean in a small piston powered airplane, not for hire, operating under part 91? He said yes. I looked right at him, and said, ‘There are none’. He got a little animated, and said ‘look up part 91.xyz and read it.’ I found it, and read aloud ‘beyond gliding distance to shore, …three pyrotechnic flares and life vests for each occupant’. ‘Well?’, he asked. ‘Gee’, I said, turning back to the title of that chapter, ‘large and turbojet airplanes’. ‘I thought this only applied to large and turbojet airplanes.’ He hesitated, blinked, then asked, ‘What is a large airplane? And a turbo jet airplane?’ I answered, and we moved on. But I think the questions got easier after that. I also remember that the correct answer to every FOI question was ‘motivation’!
History: At some point, around 1987 or so, someone at the FAA decided that there were too many ill-prepared students failing flight tests, and the reason must be that there are too many bad cfi’s that were being passed by the DPEs. So the fix was to require all new cfi applicants to go to the fsdo for their checkrides. But pretty soon the wait times for the fsdo got long (1988 standard of ‘long’ was a few weeks) so after a while the tests went back to the DPEs. But not every DPE. He/she had to have some sort of special authorization to give initial cfi check rides. I think that’s still the case, today.

Awesome story Bob, I love hearing about the history of things like that.

You are also still correct, only certain DPEs are approved for CFI work and even fewer for CFI initials. My old DPE told me about going to the FSDO he worked out of, requested to do CFI rides and they told him no, we have enough in the department. Their version of enough is 3. Haha. The gent I just took my ride with is the only one listed on FAA website for CFI initial in the entire state of Wyoming. Low population state but still blows my mind.