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FAA reverses policy on counting homebuilt hours towards certificates
- Thread starter Mike Meehan
- Start date
bruceh
Well Known Member
Hooray! It's about time they recognized the "education" component of homebuilding an EAB airplane.
As someone who just finished up 2.5 years of full time night school getting my Part 147 Airframe and Powerplant credentials, let me just say that building an RV will get you probably at most 10-20% of the knowledge you'll need to have to actually get the A&P rating.
Here is just a portion of the material I had to study.
As someone who just finished up 2.5 years of full time night school getting my Part 147 Airframe and Powerplant credentials, let me just say that building an RV will get you probably at most 10-20% of the knowledge you'll need to have to actually get the A&P rating.
Here is just a portion of the material I had to study.
If I'm understanding this correctly, we will be able to use building time toward getting our A&P license? How does the time spent home building get factored into the 30(?) month time requirements for the A&P since it's not full time? Does it need to be supervised by an A&P?
Based on what I did 30-years ago, I agree. (I may have said 15 to 20% but that falls in your spread.)
Hooray! It's about time they recognized the "education" component of homebuilding an EAB airplane.
As someone who just finished up 2.5 years of full time night school getting my Part 147 Airframe and Powerplant credentials, let me just say that building an RV will get you probably at most 10-20% of the knowledge you'll need to have to actually get the A&P rating.
Here is just a portion of the material I had to study.
rmarshall234
Well Known Member
Hooray! It's about time they recognized the "education" component of homebuilding an EAB airplane.
As someone who just finished up 2.5 years of full time night school getting my Part 147 Airframe and Powerplant credentials, let me just say that building an RV will get you probably at most 10-20% of the knowledge you'll need to have to actually get the A&P rating.
Here is just a portion of the material I had to study.
That is funny, Bruce. Yep, went to the same school - Miramar College, right? Haven’t seen that pile of books in awhile though, good laughs!
RV8JD
Well Known Member
Hooray! It's about time they recognized the "education" component of homebuilding an EAB airplane.
As someone who just finished up 2.5 years of full time night school getting my Part 147 Airframe and Powerplant credentials, let me just say that building an RV will get you probably at most 10-20% of the knowledge you'll need to have to actually get the A&P rating.
Here is just a portion of the material I had to study.
The ACS catalog?
If anyone has tips on how to properly record or receive "credit" for this, please post. I am not actively seeking an A&P cert at this very moment, but if that changes in the near future, it would be good for me to have proper documentation for my current build efforts that may apply retroactively.
I had been working on airplanes (experimental and certified - under the supervision of A&P’s) for about 45 years when I applied for my A&P, and my stack of commendation was not unlike that stack of books in the pictures about….OK, I’m exaggerating….but I had a pretty complete portfolio including build logs for E-AB’s, documented assists on routine maintenance and repairs on certified planes, and long write-ups describing what I had done over the years. Most importantly, I had letters from my former A&P (and IA) mentors that attested to the hours as well. Log everything that you do - what they want to see is a total number of hours as well as well-rounded experience. At least that is what my FSDO Inspector wanted.
Then it’s a simple (hah!) matter of studying for the writtens and prepping for the Oral and Practical…..
bruceh
Well Known Member
The ACS catalog?
Yes, actually it was a part of our "reference" material for Miramar College. Lots of good information in the catalog on types of AN hardware, materials, wood, and costs for estimating overhauls and repairs.
RV8JD
Well Known Member
That's what I figured, but it does look a little funny sitting along with the other study materials.
rmarshall234
Well Known Member
It’s not often that the FAA corrects itself and makes things easier for all of us, so I would encourage anyone who can, to take advantage of this and get your A&P. It’s a great thing to have and the “ mechanic shortage “ is for real.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
I keep asking when we will see a similar "correction" by Transport Canada.
Given their forward thinking (not!) and proactive approach to regulation (not!) I'm not holding my breath for any good news from Transport Canada. I hope to see Transport at Oshkosh and will raise this matter with them.
Given their forward thinking (not!) and proactive approach to regulation (not!) I'm not holding my breath for any good news from Transport Canada. I hope to see Transport at Oshkosh and will raise this matter with them.
Untainted123
Well Known Member
I wouldn't mind having something along the lines of an A&P, but for hobbyists, this seems daunting.
My reasonable proposal is for the FAA to rewrite the MX aspect of the regs to mimic the Student -> PPL -> CPL -> CFI (or ATP) style of certification.
I have no interest in turbines, pressurized, etc, but would like the ability to work on my own plane (private version of A&P), others (CPL equivalent), and maybe if I get into the industry, teach or IA (CFI or ATP equivalent). Some things could be covered by endorsements, or additional testing/"check rides" ("check wrenches"?).
I would guess most of us really just want the equivalent of the repairman's certificate, but in EAB, there is no path to obtaining that (unlike LSA where you can attend the class). Making that transferable (via whatever means) would probably cover most of our use cases. Similar to the discussion happening around MOSAIC, there is lots of room for improvement and efficiency gains in the MX area of the FAR's. IMO, this will become more acute as original builders age out and leave behind 2nd and 3rd hand airplanes, all funneling to the smaller and smaller supply of A&P/IA's.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Paul, your experience is definitely the exception and not the rule. While I suppose the hours will help someone, IMO kit builders, especially RV builders, should understand that the knowledge acquired from building is just the tip of the iceberg of what’s required to get the cert. kit building only exposes you to a small portion of both the airframe and power plant skill sets. YMMV…….
pa38112
Well Known Member
I think this is good news, with some pros. and some cons. I personally don’t think building a Zenith is enough experience to work on a complex plane or a Fabric plane, and I don’t think building a Cub is enough experience to work on a RV. I agree the time should count, but it should not be your entire time.
I also think it makes more sense to add a category that gives someone specific authority to inspect or do A&P work. – If you build an RV7 and can pass a knowledge and skill test specific to that type, you should be able to perform A&P work on them. Likewise, if you purchase an experiment that you maintain, you should be able to pass a knowledge and skills test that lets you inspect that plane.
I also think it makes more sense to add a category that gives someone specific authority to inspect or do A&P work. – If you build an RV7 and can pass a knowledge and skill test specific to that type, you should be able to perform A&P work on them. Likewise, if you purchase an experiment that you maintain, you should be able to pass a knowledge and skills test that lets you inspect that plane.
Hooray! It's about time they recognized the "education" component of homebuilding an EAB airplane.
As someone who just finished up 2.5 years of full time night school getting my Part 147 Airframe and Powerplant credentials, let me just say that building an RV will get you probably at most 10-20% of the knowledge you'll need to have to actually get the A&P rating.
Here is just a portion of the material I had to study.
Yup… Me too
sahrens
Well Known Member
Slow change
When I took the A&P course I attempted to get credit for my RV-7 build to no avail. I am glad they will included the time / some of the time toward the requirements. But there are a lot of different builds on the market, will each manufacture model be given different hour levels? What if the kit is a quick build? How will they determine all that into a equitable process?
I can't image the FAA changing the O&P evaluation in any manner? Too many customization issues to address. If that is the case you will still need to pass the same exam and take the same O&P evaluation.
My build experience definitely gave me a leg up on sheet metal work. But not very much at all for the power plant portion, especially the turbine area.
When I took the A&P course I attempted to get credit for my RV-7 build to no avail. I am glad they will included the time / some of the time toward the requirements. But there are a lot of different builds on the market, will each manufacture model be given different hour levels? What if the kit is a quick build? How will they determine all that into a equitable process?
I can't image the FAA changing the O&P evaluation in any manner? Too many customization issues to address. If that is the case you will still need to pass the same exam and take the same O&P evaluation.
My build experience definitely gave me a leg up on sheet metal work. But not very much at all for the power plant portion, especially the turbine area.
fl-mike
Well Known Member
Log your hours. I have four plane's worth, plus I log maintenance hours.
Yes, you will have plenty of gaps to fill for overall knowledge, but you will have credit towards the practical experience aspect. I've been studying the King A&P course for a few years now (as a sleep aid on business trips!), plus I plan to get additional classroom training.
I've already reached out to the FSDO for an appointment for the 8610-2.
Yes, you will have plenty of gaps to fill for overall knowledge, but you will have credit towards the practical experience aspect. I've been studying the King A&P course for a few years now (as a sleep aid on business trips!), plus I plan to get additional classroom training.
I've already reached out to the FSDO for an appointment for the 8610-2.
For an EAB, everything I changed to all caps is legal now, no authorization required, with the sole exception of the annual condition inspection.
Rallylancer122
Well Known Member
My experience was similar to Paul's. The best advice is to get with the FSDO inspector and see what he/she wants. In my case I had a letter from an old timer A&P attesting that I had done what I said I did. The FSDO inspector then asked me to write basically a detailed resume summarizing my experience. After that he asked around the FSDO and came up with a name of someone I worked with, called him, and fished for info. Satisfied, he came up and interviewed me. Only then did I get the sign off.
Little did I know that was the easy part. I still had to take the tests! There are 3 writtens: general, airframe, and powerplant. The general is 60-70 questions and the other 2 are 100 each. I downloaded the question banks, studied for 3 weeks, and took them in 1 shot. My brain was melted after that.
The oral/practical takes anywhere from 1-3 days. Mine was 1 and a half. It's very hands on. I actually riveted parts, devised a repair, did multiple inspections, blended a prop, etc...
I'm a commercial instrument multiengine fixed wing and rotorcraft pilot, as well as an A&P and an IA. Hooray for me I got lots of acronyms on my license, but the point is I've taken a lot of tests. The A&P was hands down the hardest rating I've gotten. Keep in mind, this is basically the equivalent of an ATP in terms of training and privilege. I encourage everyone to go out and work towards your A&P. It is immensely handy, and quite honestly a ton of fun. But do not underestimate how difficult it is to get.
n82rb
Well Known Member
as others have stated, it will help, but there is still a lot of things that it will not cover. first, the A&P is two separate ratings. you need 1600hrs each or a total of 3000 for both. if you bought an engine and hung it on your aircraft you will get 0 hours toward the powerplant rating.
i have had mine for over 20 years, and it was a lot easier then to get approval for work credit then. now everything has to be documented as to time and areas covered.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
i have had mine for over 20 years, and it was a lot easier then to get approval for work credit then. now everything has to be documented as to time and areas covered.
bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
rmarshall234
Well Known Member
I think the important point is that the faa has realized there is a shortage of mechanics and now making it easier to get your ticket. “You don’t need to see the whole staircase, take the first step”
A&P
I am an ATP rated, multi-engine pilot with multiple type ratings. I flew in the Air Force and was an instructor. I am also a A&P. By far, the A&P was the most difficult rating to get. I spent two years, full-time, in school to get these ratings. As others have said, don't underestimate the difficulty of the tests involved and the sheer breadth of material that you have to know to pass the tests. It ain't just a paperwork exercise.
I am an ATP rated, multi-engine pilot with multiple type ratings. I flew in the Air Force and was an instructor. I am also a A&P. By far, the A&P was the most difficult rating to get. I spent two years, full-time, in school to get these ratings. As others have said, don't underestimate the difficulty of the tests involved and the sheer breadth of material that you have to know to pass the tests. It ain't just a paperwork exercise.
YEP...........
Mechanic certificate with Airframe & Powerplant ratings was a bit more difficult in yesteryears!
As of Monday 7/31/2023, my certificate will be 50 years old!
Interesting fact. I was based at Seagoville Airport and A&P school was at Blue Mound airport. Twice a week I flew directly over the construction of a new airport between Dallas & Ft.Worth. The identifier for that new airport became KDFW. I have stacks of pictures.
Mechanic certificate with Airframe & Powerplant ratings was a bit more difficult in yesteryears!
As of Monday 7/31/2023, my certificate will be 50 years old!
Interesting fact. I was based at Seagoville Airport and A&P school was at Blue Mound airport. Twice a week I flew directly over the construction of a new airport between Dallas & Ft.Worth. The identifier for that new airport became KDFW. I have stacks of pictures.
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sahrens
Well Known Member
O&P has changed
In previous years the O&P was up to the DME. That person could ask questions and decide what tasks the applicant would demonstrate. So a wise applicant would mark sure they were very knowledgeable about the areas deemed important to that DME.
About 2017 the testing changed. The DME logins into the FAA website, enters the applicant’s information and downloads the oral questions and practical tasks. Those are the only questions the DME can ask and the only tasks the applicant must demonstrate.
So you really have to prepare for anything, including turbine questions and tasks.
In previous years the O&P was up to the DME. That person could ask questions and decide what tasks the applicant would demonstrate. So a wise applicant would mark sure they were very knowledgeable about the areas deemed important to that DME.
About 2017 the testing changed. The DME logins into the FAA website, enters the applicant’s information and downloads the oral questions and practical tasks. Those are the only questions the DME can ask and the only tasks the applicant must demonstrate.
So you really have to prepare for anything, including turbine questions and tasks.
At 1600 hours you’re not going to have enough. That’s only 40 weeks ~ 9 months of work.
It’s 18 months each or if work was performed on both airframe and power plant simultaneously 30 months. It is assumed these hours are accomplished during 40 hour weeks. 3120 hours separately or 5200 for both.
40 hours/week required outlined here https://www.faa.gov/mechanics/become/faq
Every FSDO is different, mine used Part 147 appendix b,c,d which contains subjects for general, airframe, powerplant to evaluate my OJT. The inspector understood that I probably had no fabric experience, or piston experience with military ojt.
He was looking to see that in all my years that I had done more than 50% of the tasks taught in a Part 147 school. That was used as his basis to substantiate that I had done multiple types of work within the required months. I brought transcripts that showed I had taken algebra, physics, electrical, etc to cover my experience for general. OJT binder was used for airframe and powerplant topics.
My hours were assumed to be 40/week because I was active duty.
You could document a ton of hours airframe but you’re going to come up very short on powerplant building an RV. There aren’t thousands of hours to be had in the build. I doubt any inspector would give a blessing on 5200 (~30 months)hours of building that included hanging and engine and give you the Powerplant. At best you might eek out the Airframe.
