Building on a semi enclosed patio?

[inktomi]

Hi -

I have an RV-10 on order (quickbuild kits). I’m trying to figure out the best place to build it. I don’t have room in my garage, but I do have a large (equivalent to maybe a 2.5 car garage) back patio that’s enclosed on three sides. Would working semi outdoors be reasonable? I could for sure drape plastic over parts to keep them from getting dusty, and they would be protected from rain and sun. I live in Los Angeles, so average humidity is relatively low. I do worry about potential for corrosion etc. I live about 20 miles from the coast.

Due to the space and generally wanting a helpful eye while getting started I signed up with Synergy in Oregon to build the empennage kit. So I won’t need to build that here at home.

With quickbuild kits, and having the empennage kit complete, is there much to do before getting to a stage where a hanger makes more sense? I’ve got an airport maybe 20 minutes from me - but I’d love to do as much as I can at home so that I can spend more time on the project.

Sorry for so many questions!

 

[BobTurner]

You can get very close to finished with that kind of space. Need hangar/airport for wing attachment.
Compressors and air gun riveting are loud. Do you have close neighbors?
Spray painting in LA is most likely not an option.

 

[Mike S]

Welcome to VAF

Matt, welcome aboard the good ship VAF

 

[inktomi]

Thanks! I’ve been lurking and learning lots.

I don’t intend on painting my plane myself. I’m going to have it done professionally, or at least by someone who’s done it before and has a proper paint booth after the 40 hour flight testing.

 

[rv6n6r]

RVs have been built in lots of unusual places, sounds like yet another!
I think most will agree, having your project at home makes it easier to make regular progress. But you don't want to be hampered by concerns about when and how much you will be bothering the neighbors.
Bob is right about the compressor, maybe you can put it inside (say, a closet) and plumb the hose to where you're working. But there's also rivet guns, die grinders, etc., that is, plenty of noise which may be a deal breaker depending on your neighborhood. Get your neighbors on board e.g. "Hey come over and let me show you this project - and hm there will be some noise, be sure to let me know if it's a problem."

 

[inktomi]

It would be trivially easy to have the compressor inside the garage and use it in the patio. I’ll have to ask around about noise. I doubt it’ll be an issue but I don’t want to be THAT neighbor.

 

[Mike6A]

Patio

We did it with a 6a in Hermosa Beach, took 3 years to build. Most work was done during the day so many neighbors were surprised to see it come out. What airport are you looking at. I am n El monte with my 6a but there is a 10 and a 14 being built.

 

[inktomi]

I’m hoping to also base out of El Monte. It would be nice to meet up there and see the projects and your plane some day.

 

[wirejock]

Space

I heard of a RV10 built in a shipping container.
Best advise would be to enclose the fourth side with a door or something to keep environmental conditions stable yet allow for it to be opened when desired. Nights get pretty humid.

 

[Mike6A]

Sent a pm for meeting at emt

 

[Kyle Boatright]

It would be trivially easy to have the compressor inside the garage and use it in the patio. I’ll have to ask around about noise. I doubt it’ll be an issue but I don’t want to be THAT neighbor.

The strategy that worked for me in a neighborhood with small lots was to speak directly to my neighbors, explain what I was doing, and make it absolutely clear that I'd do whatever I could to minimize the noise (and painting fumes - I painted the airplane in my garage). BUT, if they ever had a problem with the noise or the smell, I told them to please come directly to me and let me know and I'd take care of it.

None of 'em ever complained.

 

[PhatRV]

Hi -

I have an RV-10 on order (quickbuild kits). I’m trying to figure out the best place to build it. I don’t have room in my garage, but I do have a large (equivalent to maybe a 2.5 car garage) back patio that’s enclosed on three sides. Would working semi outdoors be reasonable? I could for sure drape plastic over parts to keep them from getting dusty, and they would be protected from rain and sun. I live in Los Angeles, so average humidity is relatively low. I do worry about potential for corrosion etc. I live about 20 miles from the coast.

Due to the space and generally wanting a helpful eye while getting started I signed up with Synergy in Oregon to build the empennage kit. So I won’t need to build that here at home.

With quickbuild kits, and having the empennage kit complete, is there much to do before getting to a stage where a hanger makes more sense? I’ve got an airport maybe 20 minutes from me - but I’d love to do as much as I can at home so that I can spend more time on the project.

Sorry for so many questions!

I spent almost 3 months painting my RV8 in the backyard. If you purchase the compressor that is 30 gallons or larger, it doesn't kick on very often. With the general dry weather in SoCal, if you continue making progress, corrosion won't be a problem. It's a problem if you don't work on your project for years. With regard to painting, using today's new HVLP gun doesn't produce a lot of overspray. You can spray everything in the backyard and your neighbor won't notice it.

Try and visit other builders in your area and ask a lot of question when you meet them. I wished I did that early in my build. We don't mind the questions because we want to share our experiences, plus we want to talk the crazy people who build airplanes too.

 

[DanH]

With quickbuild kits, and having the empennage kit complete, is there much to do before getting to a stage where a hanger makes more sense?

Yes, there is lots to do. But before you start, seriously consider enclosing the fourth side of your patio. You'll want to work in the morning, late at night, when it's raining, windy, cold, hot, etc. Steel tools rust, documents wrinkle, and the RV-10's high composites content makes climate control a really big deal.

I’ve got an airport maybe 20 minutes from me -

Keep the project at home as long as possible. The two great slowdowns for airplane projects are (1) running out of money and (2) moving to the airport, not necessarily in that order. Commuting back and forth to work on the airplane isn't bad if you're otherwise retired and can treat it like a full time job. If your life includes employment, and/or kids, and/or a spouse who requires attention, steady progress requires 30 minutes here and two hours there.

I built most of my first one between 9 and midnight.

 

[Mel]

Yes, there is lots to do. But before you start, seriously consider enclosing the fourth side of your patio. You'll want to work in the morning, late at night, when it's raining, windy, cold, hot, etc. Steel tools rust, documents wrinkle, and the RV-10's high composites content makes climate control a really big deal.
Keep the project at home as long as possible. The two great slowdowns for airplane projects are (1) running out of money and (2) moving to the airport, not necessarily in that order. Commuting back and forth to work on the airplane isn't bad if you're otherwise retired and can treat it like a full time job. If your life includes employment, and/or kids, and/or a spouse who requires attention, steady progress requires 30 minutes here and two hours there.
I built most of my first one between 9 and midnight.

All spouses require attention. Otherwise they become Ex-Spouses; usually with a sizable portion of your assets.

 

[Roadjunkie1]

Building spaces and other issues......

RVs have been built in lots of unusual places, sounds like yet another!

To me, that sounds like SCADS of room! I got through my "canoe" stage on SuzieQ in a single car garage! Oh, to have had the room you will have!

I think most will agree, having your project at home makes it easier to make regular progress.

Starting at home is definitely advantageous. You can just go out there after dinner and work on something. This project will be "one thing at a time" until you have a flying airplane. Not that you can't have several projects going but when you finish one, that will be one you will have behind you. Again, there will be days you go out, sit and stare at things, turn the lights off and go back in the house. Other days it will suddenly be 2am and you will have no idea how it got so late!

Bob is right about the compressor, maybe you can put it inside (say, a closet) and plumb the hose to where you're working.

When you go get your compressor, ask if you can hear it run. Some are obnoxiously loud, especially the "oiless" ones. Others just sit over there and hummmmmm.

But there's also rivet guns, die grinders, etc., that is, plenty of noise which may be a deal breaker depending on your neighborhood. Get your neighbors on board e.g. "Hey come over and let me show you this project - and hm there will be some noise, be sure to let me know if it's a problem."

Hey: let me show you what a bucking bar is and how it's used!

I worked initally in a closely-packed older neighborhood and had NO complaints at all. Most visitors were curious and amazed that an AIRPLANE could be built in a GARAGE??? That was actually part of the fun! I had frequent visitors as the word spread to see if they had been lied to. Wait: the guy at 1123 is building an AIRPLANE?? That is what the nose is.....? Na..... I might have to go see that.....

Painting: you will be painting the interior of components (especially where you live) to avoid internal corrosion. I believe the current recommendation is still to put a thin layer of primer on all internal surfaces. The HVLP systems work great with minimal overspray, as previously stated. There may be some local regulations (city, county, state) regarding paints. You do live in California, after all! Sometimes it may be better to beg for forgiveness.....not sure what that means....

Congratulations! This will be one of the most amazing things you have ever done and you will finish with one of the best aircraft on the planet! Maybe THE BEST 4 seater! You have also joined a community that is second-to-none as far as support and encouragement. I wish this was around when I was building but the telephone had not been invented yet.....

Spousal units: Seem to come in three types: 1) All in! Great for rivet help (show her how to use the rivet gun so she does not have to buck.....!!) 2) Mildly interested and pretty aware of what she will have access to when you are done. MAY help riveting, may not. 3) That's your area out there, honey.

Have FUN! Otherwise, what's the purpose?

 

[Snowflake]

When you go get your compressor, ask if you can hear it run. Some are obnoxiously loud, especially the "oiless" ones. Others just sit over there and hummmmmm.

If you want quiet, you don't want oil-less, that's for sure.

Google "quiet compressor enclosure" and see what others have done to make compressors quiet. The noise can be almost completely mitigated with a simple plywood enclosure, the appropriate lining, and pad isolators for it to sit on. The noise of the riveting itself is the noise you need to worry about with the neighbours.

If three sides are already enclosed, it wouldn't take much more to enclose the fourth side and fill the walls with sound-deadening insulation. Do that, and I bet none of your neighbours would even hear you.

 

[inktomi]

Thank you for all the comments! I did buy an oiled compressor after hearing about how loud the oiless compressors were - expecting something super loud I'm happy to say even with it running in the garage and standing next to it, it's not too loud. An electric saw is louder.

I wish I could enclose the patio. This patio is.. lets say less than permitted and was here when I bought the house. Due to how it's built, it would be a major job to actually enclose it. I could perhaps get some do-it-yourself clip on patio plastic to keep things more enclosed though, and happy to hear if anyone else has any ideas as well.

I'm already expecting that I'll have to open up one of the walls to get the plane out of the patio after building it.. but I've wanted to change the location of a window there anyway.

Are hangars, I was thinking a T hanger, really that much more climate controlled? All the ones I've been in have been basically open to the world - sure, they close up, but there's no climate control. It'll get hot and cold in them too?

 

[Mel]

Compressors......

Typically oilless compressors are VERY LOUD. There are exceptions; California Air Tools have some very quiet oilless compressors.

For oiled type compressors, the 2-stage are much quieter than single stage.

 

[Mikeyb]

[/QUOTE]
Are hangars, I was thinking a T hanger, really that much more climate controlled? All the ones I've been in have been basically open to the world - sure, they close up, but there's no climate control. It'll get hot and cold in them too.


I have a south facing hanger at Corona. The daily temperature variation exceeds 50F. When the temperature goes above and below the dew point anything steel rusts right here in sunny so cal.

A T-hanger is the worst working environment I have ever experienced. Depending on your age and the airport you might end up peeing in a bottle. Just when you get in a groove and are making progress somebody wanders over to see what you are doing. I’m with DanH on this. Anything you can do to work at home is in everyone’s best interest.

Data in pic from April.

 

[cvairwerks]

You could use vinyl strip door curtains to close off the open wall. Same stuff you see being used in warehouse and drive in freezer and cooler doors.
A 300' spool of 8" wide, .080" thick, clear, will run you about $400. That will close in about 18' of wall, using a 2" overlap.

 

[N427EF]

I did much the same.

As far as the space you have described, it seems quite ideal especially in the LA area, provided you can keep the hoodlums away from your property.
I also have a semi open carport about the size you describe and for the purpose of building I temporarily enclosed it with clear plastic sheets. Here I would not skimp, build a fairly robust 2x frame structure to keep the plastic from flopping around. It does not have to be engineered, just solid enough to keep the plastic in place for a couple of years while you build your 10.
You mentioned having it painted professionally and that will save you the trouble of having to build a filter and fresh air supply system plus keeping the neighbors happier. Compressor noise is one thing but dimpling and riveting is quite annoying to neighbors who don't know what you are doing. As mentioned, best to inform them and let them know you won't make noise after 8pm or whatever.
As far as finishing, I built the entire plane at home including paint. After transporting the various assemblies to the airport, it took less than 2 months of assembly to get the -10 to flying condition and ready for DAR inspection.
While the airport is a fun place with friends and interesting airplanes and projects, it is also a place where you almost always get interrupted by well meaning "helpers". My advice to you, do as much as you can at home, ask someone to come and look at it from time to time and be one of those airport
visitors who will inspect other builders projects and learn from their experience.
I am not affiliated with California air tools but they make the quietest compressor on the market. Put a timer on that noisemaker so it won't come on at midnight.

 

[inktomi]

You could use vinyl strip door curtains to close off the open wall. Same stuff you see being used in warehouse and drive in freezer and cooler doors.
A 300' spool of 8" wide, .080" thick, clear, will run you about $400. That will close in about 18' of wall, using a 2" overlap.

This is a great idea! The plastic stripping would be super easy to install along the pre-existing structure as well which is great.

I'm also not opposed to making a little frame from 2x4s and stapling thick plastic sheet to it as well. Nothing permanent, but hopefully good enough for 2 or 3 years. This would let me get a little AC or de-humidification going as well..

 

[bobnoffs]

park the cars outside. i think 20 miles from the ocean there is going to be a lot of micrescopic particles of salt floating around and they are going to end up on your work area. you are way more likely to end up with a conflict with your neighbors about something than if you are in the garage. theft is going to be an issue unless the area is secure. if i was going to do this under the canopy i would make insulated walls for the noise factor and make it lockable and secure as your garage.

 

[bobnoffs]

i was just thinking about the last move we made. i needed an interim place for stg. it was easy to contract with someone and use their 2 car garage. maybe you could work something out with someone that has unused secure space near you.