Van's Air Force
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8 with a c/s
- Thread starter Rv6mike
- Start date
johntwilcox
Member
“Has trouble flying with me”. In what way? Can’t keep up? Can’t fly slow enough?
this will certainly create added work load on the 8 pilot as you transition through phases of flight. What you are adjusting to with the c/s he would have to do with throttle adjustments. That is expected.
If he can’t keep up that may be related but a different issue to resolve. The 8 should be able to match cruise speed unless the prop is heavily climb tuned
this will certainly create added work load on the 8 pilot as you transition through phases of flight. What you are adjusting to with the c/s he would have to do with throttle adjustments. That is expected.
If he can’t keep up that may be related but a different issue to resolve. The 8 should be able to match cruise speed unless the prop is heavily climb tuned
In formation flying, the ”fixed pitch vs constant speed” performance mismatch is well known. The CS prop airplane will have more instantaneous throttle response in both acceleration and (especially) deceleration. Get the two aircraft line abreast co-speed, then chop both throttles to idle. The fixed pitch aircraft will spit out forward, not having the airbrake-like effectiveness of the FP prop. The CS prop gives the pilot more precise and instantaneous control for station-keeping and airspeed control in rejoins.
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He should NOT have trouble flying with you.
Either you are changing power as lead too aggressively OR he is not anticipating enough on turns, rejoins etc.
it CAN be done.
The basis for my comments is "back in the day ..." when I did my formation "check-ride" with Stu McCurdy, I had an 160 HP O-320 with a Fixed Pitch Ed Sterba wood prop. Everyone else in the flight had at least 180HP and constant speed props.
Now, the PROBLEM is that with the fixed pitch prop (and less HP), even with the smoothest of leads, you have to LEARN how much anticipation of putting power in and taking it out is required. If your lead is not sensitive to that, then it might be near impossible to stay in position. Lead HAS to be smooth AND consistent.
Later I switched to a Hartzell constant speed prop and flew with Team RV/Team AeroDynamix. At that time I was the only guy with 160 HP! So Mike Stewart had to design the airshow around the LEAST amount of HP available to each segment. As lead, he had 260 HP (!!!!!) but he led guys in "Alpha" who had "only" 180 HP.
Try this:
As lead set a MAXIMUM straight and level speed of say 140kts. (Maybe even try 130 kts to get the feel for what am saying). Go out and do some turns with him on your wing. In the beginning announce that you are about to "turn to the right" or "turn to the left". After a few of these, he will get the FEEL for how much anticipation HIS setup requires. He WILL have to "jam the throttle forward" and wait for some "spool up" time and then be prepared to take it out before he thinks followed by a repeat to find the sweet spot.
It may be frustrating in the beginning, but he will get there and be an even BETTER formation pilot than he currently is.
It CAN be and HAS BEEN done. If I can do it, I am sure that he (the two of you) can.
Well said!
James is absolutely correct, and I wish I had completed my response with his point. In FFI we fly a lot of pilots with fixed pitch props, and for pre-sortie academic-style briefs we talk about the need to anticipate, when to anticipate, etc. As flight leads we back off our maneuvering speed to about 120-130 KIAS. The radio call announcing the turn helps.
"And one more thing ..."
IF you decide to practice section take-offs and landings, as lead, you MUST learn how much to EASE in the power during takeoff and EASE out the power on landing. Otherwise you will shoot ahead and he will have a hard time catching up on the takeoff and he will blow by you on the landing. In my opinion, practicing flying two planes with these combinations makes for a better lead and a better wingman because it forces more awareness.
Ralph Inkster
Well Known Member
Flying formation with my fixed pitch was always a constant effort of anticipation. My throttle cable always got a real good workout.
Flying formation with a constant speed prop and carb gives the throttle shaft and bushing a real workout also. Mine have been replaced three times over the years.
Wing needs to ask for an inch if having a hard time keeping up. (power reduction). I have seen many leads fly faster than the wing with the little engine and or fixed pitch requiring wing guy needing full power to just maintain position.
The "Black Jack Squadron" used 140 MPH maneuvering speed. FFI wanted to use 135 KIAS like Falcon Flight did in their maneuvering routine but the wing guy with little engine and or fixed pitch prop could easily fall behind and not be able to catch up. FFI adopted "130 KIAS or as brief" as their standard so that the guys doing a maneuver route could pick a higher speed / power setting that gave them enough smash to get the pitch and bank angles they required. The little engine guys with less power and or fixed pitch props could use a lower speed / power setting so that they could keep up.
Flight LEAD needs to be aware what the other airplanes in their flight can do AND adjust their speed for the weakest in the flight. Too many flight leads fly with 180 HP or more and constant speed prop guys all the time so they forget to slow down for the 160 HP and fixed pitch guys.
I fly formation with an RV-6 guy here and he has a 150hp 320 with a fixed pitch prop. He does quite well but we slow things a bit in consideration of the power differences. I just have to remain predictable, be smooth and ease into turns especially if he’s on the up wing as #3 or 4. We also slow our turning rejoins down to about 125 kts and that seems to work better. Most of our guys are big motors and C/S props and even though he’s a little power limited in the RV-6 he does really nice rejoins. He is exploring engine/prop options but if we just give him some power consideration he makes it look easy.
skylor
Well Known Member
You haven't really given much information about what he has trouble with. What phase of flight give him problems? What speeds are you using for the flight? What maneuvers? You say he's an "experienced formation guy" but what kind of experience? Has he done a lot of FFI formation in RV's or is his experience elsewhere? As others have stated, there are lots of carded FFI pilots that regularly fly fixed pitch aircraft with higher powered constant speed aircraft with no issues.
Also, be cautious when someone tells you they're experienced formation pilots. I once flew in a formation flight with a so-called "experienced" formation pilot that had navy flying experience and was a former Air Combat USA instructor and we found out during the flight that he thought a 4 -ship rejoin was a "free for all" to rejoin on lead...
Skylor
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Many years ago I flew a fixed pitch RV-4 to a clinic...sold it and bot c/s RV-8 the next week...workload on fixed pitch is infinitely more. like night and day. Flew 20 years on Team Rv and others with that fabulous C/S prop.
N804RV
Well Known Member
I fly formation with an -8 that has C/S sometimes. My little Sonerai has a 52" wood prop. I usually fly lead and has no problem staying on my wing. He has to throttle back quite a bit keep from out running me. He loves it though because every time we go somewhere he exclaims its the best fuel economy ever!
Roadjunkie1
Well Known Member
Words to fear. If you don't know the person (and sometimes even if you DO!), those words to me are an instant red flag. Eyes wide open. Let them take lead and see what they do and be prepared for ANYthing. I have a friend who is a well-known aerial photographer (you have seen her work in Kitplanes) who is VERY leery of anyone who says 'oh, I'm experienced with formation flying.' Needless to say, formation flying is a major part of air-to-air photography and she has seen the gamut. She had a recent two plane formation shoot that got VERY interesting! Brief the flight (sometimes you can tell just by that) and fly the brief.
