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New (October 2013) LED wingtip landings light discovered

You will probably have to wait a while to get them if you want to play with them. Mouser says they will get 40 in April and they are 9 week lead time.

Also noticed from the specs they run at 70 volts. So to use them in an airplane you will need a power supply.

Did some quick math on the Trustfire light. It looks like they are only driving the LEDs at 1.5 amps which is half their max rating.
From the measurements, at 13.8 volts they draw 1.25 amps
that is 17.25 watts going in.
these drivers have about 90% efficiency
so that means 15.525 W delivered to the LEDs.
the XMLs have a forward voltage of 3.3v , so they are in series give us 9.9v
that means they are getting 1.5 amps
They probably are under driving them because of the heat.
 
Some more info I gathered on the Trustfire lights form the flashlight forums:

There are two models out there with apparently different drivers. (there are also the clones)

http://www.manafont.com/product_inf...emory-led-flashlight-3x18650-p-7443?rp=522815

http://www.manafont.com/product_inf...modes-led-flashlight-2x18650-p-7354?rp=522815

I never trust the specs they list with the stuff that comes form China.
It says the real Trustfire is rated at 12.6v, but i have run it at 14 v and it seems to be ok.

Here is the driver that is in the "real" Trustfire. Found what it was because a guy dissected his and posted pics. then someone else found it listed.
http://www.manafont.com/product_inf...t6-cree-circuit-board-driver-p-7973?rp=522815

Also, I found out the LEDs are wired in parallel, not in series.
This makes sense why the light will turn on at around 3.1 volts in.

I also ran another test on the "real" Trustfire and my clone. using a power supply I ramped up the voltage from 2.5v to 14v and measured the current and the Lumens with a meter.
The real Trustfire comes on at 3.1v, and gets to full brightness at 3.7.
My clone comes on at 2.3v and the current ramps up much faster, so they definitely have different drivers in them.

So I have concluded that if you plan to use one of these lights in an airplane with 13.8 bus voltage, you need to test the driver to make sure you have one that is compatible. the one in my clone is not. In mine after I go above 10v the current starts rapidly increasing.

I will put my data into a spreadsheet tonight and post it.
 
I have little test equipment to test the one that I got but here the little info I can provide.

It is a Trustfire 11000LM (not sure if it is a clone or an actual Trustfire). I hooked it up to the car battery and the airplane battery, it worked without any issues. I also ran it with the ship power while flying and my typical buss voltage is about 14.1v, again no issues.

While on the ground, I hooked it up to an amp meter and it would start just around 3A and slowly go down to about 2.86 or so. I can not explain why the amp reading goes down as my voltage does not change much but three or four time testing yielded the same result.
 
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If we do the math on those numbers, it looks like they are driving the LEDs with almost the same current as the small Trustfire

14.1v x 3a = 42W going in
with 90% efficiency on the driver that gives 38 W to the LEDs.
My guess is they have 3 strings of 3 LEDs in parallel, so that would mean
each LED string is getting 1.36 amps. A little less than the small Trustfire.
So basically this monster should have about 3 times the output of the 3 LED light. However, it will also produce more heat so you have to watch that.

Would love to see a photo of it in action.
 
tikicarver said:
If we do the math on those numbers, it looks like they are driving the LEDs with almost the same current as the small Trustfire

14.1v x 3a = 42W going in
with 90% efficiency on the driver that gives 38 W to the LEDs.
My guess is they have 3 strings of 3 LEDs in parallel, so that would mean
each LED string is getting 1.36 amps. A little less than the small Trustfire.
So basically this monster should have about 3 times the output of the 3 LED light. However, it will also produce more heat so you have to watch that.

Would love to see a photo of it in action.
Click to expand...

In terms of brightness, the only thing I have to compare it with is my existing 35W Xenon lights and they just don?t compare, much brighter. The good news is that I don?t believe heat would be an issue. I had them on probably at most for 5 minutes duration since I did not want to run my battery down but it was hardly noticeable to touch, if at all. I was also very pleased to see no noise issue at least one that I could detect. My Xenon puts out some noise and that is with the string of ferrite that I have put on them. I have ordered a second one and am hoping to be of the same thing. I will post pictures when I have them, including installation.
 
Bavafa said:
...I have ordered a second one and am hoping to be of the same thing. I will post pictures when I have them, including installation.
Click to expand...

From the pictures available, it looks like these are essentially a scaled up version of the 3 CREE versions. If this is the case, then mounting via the lens cap ring and power connections through a cut down body will be easy.

Also, I noticed there is a 11000LM Ultrafire in addition to your unit. They appear to be similar in appearance and price. Wonder if the quality differs?
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Mehrdad - do you have a link to the Trustfire you've purchased? Not sure I've seen any with 11,000LM advertised.
Click to expand...

Yes, I bought them from e-bay and they ship them from US (CA). The second flashlight is taking longer to be shipped, not sure what is the hold up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrustFire-C...9975742?pt=US_Flashlights&hash=item58a841543e


I had been hoping to get them by this weekend so I can mount them as I have alreayd made the mounts for them. But I doubt I will be getting them by the weekend so we will have to wait for my full report :cool:
 
Bavafa said:
Yes, I bought them from e-bay and they ship them from US (CA). The second flashlight is taking longer to be shipped, not sure what is the hold up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrustFire-C...9975742?pt=US_Flashlights&hash=item58a841543e


I had been hoping to get them by this weekend so I can mount them as I have alreayd made the mounts for them. But I doubt I will be getting them by the weekend so we will have to wait for my full report :cool:
Click to expand...

Wow, what a price. I thought the 9 XML LEDs cost more than that! I assume this is an imported clone of the trustfire?
 
Your WELCOME BILL!!!!! Going to buy another two pack!

Glad you like them! Spread the word AFTER you buy what you need!

Ron in Oregon
 
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I will make a trip to Costco tomorrow to see if my local store has them? I am sure they will be very handy both at home and in the hanger.
 
ITS A MUST HAVE FLASHLIGHT! COSTCO 500 Lumens by DURACELL! TWO PACK! ON SALE $20! "C" SIX DURACELL batteries included.

Ron in Oregon
 
Bavafa said:
Yes, I bought them from e-bay and they ship them from US (CA). The second flashlight is taking longer to be shipped, not sure what is the hold up.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TrustFire-C...9975742?pt=US_Flashlights&hash=item58a841543e


I had been hoping to get them by this weekend so I can mount them as I have alreayd made the mounts for them. But I doubt I will be getting them by the weekend so we will have to wait for my full report :cool:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update, Mehrdad. You've found these lights are "RF quiet"?
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Thanks for the update, Mehrdad. You've found these lights are "RF quiet"?
Click to expand...

The second one that I had ordered finally got shipped and scheduled to arrive on Tuesday. I sent a note to the seller requesting to send exact unit as the first one, and hoping to get the same since I found it to be noise free in the plane. Even my halogen lights were creating a bit of noise in the radio but this flash light was virtually undetectable from any noise. I have all my mounts ready and should be just install them on Wed.
 
Bavafa said:
The second one that I had ordered finally got shipped and scheduled to arrive on Tuesday. I sent a note to the seller requesting to send exact unit as the first one, and hoping to get the same since I found it to be noise free in the plane. Even my halogen lights were creating a bit of noise in the radio but this flash light was virtually undetectable from any noise. I have all my mounts ready and should be just install them on Wed.
Click to expand...

Can u post pictures of your mount? I assume you are putting in duckworks plate?
 
Toobuilder said:
According to the specs, the OD on the lens is 78mm (about 3")... Is this about right?
Click to expand...

Yes, they are just a bit larger than 3" about 3.11" and I could not detect any RF in any range of the radio. Again, it was not installed permanently and I am planning on installing them in the wingtips by mid next week when the second one arrives.

I will post pictures when I get them installed and will report back about the RF or any other issues that I may run into.
 
I received my second 11000LM Trustfire on Saturday and installed it. The second one looked identical to the first one but was creating some RF noise on the ground. I have found if either positive or negative leads are not firmly connected, it make some noise. Proceeded with the final installation and put a bunch of twist on the +/- lead. I did a few short flights to test them. On the ground and within 3-4K AGL, I cannot detect any noise at all but when I was higher up (10K AGL) there was definitely lots of noise in the radio. I could see my rx on the 430 go on that corresponded to the noise so I am wondering if the auto squelch on the 430 is more sensitive that picks up the noise. It was also effecting VOR receive.

Any idea as why the noise is detectable higher up.

Good news is that the landing lights will primarily be used closer to the ground, bad news is that there is plenty of noise put out by these lights.

I have pix of the light and installation if anyone is interested, let me know and I will e-mail them out.
 
Are you using a ferrite, cap, or any other type of noise trap beyond the twisted power leads?

You should post your pics here.

As an aside, I washed the Rocket last night and had to go fly to "dry it off". On initial taxi, the lights broke squelch on the radio, but by the time I completed my runup they were quiet again. Don't know what the deal is there.
 
please email photos

Bavafa said:
I received my second 11000LM Trustfire on Saturday and installed it. The second one looked identical to the first one but was creating some RF noise on the ground. I have found if either positive or negative leads are not firmly connected, it make some noise. Proceeded with the final installation and put a bunch of twist on the +/- lead. I did a few short flights to test them. On the ground and within 3-4K AGL, I cannot detect any noise at all but when I was higher up (10K AGL) there was definitely lots of noise in the radio. I could see my rx on the 430 go on that corresponded to the noise so I am wondering if the auto squelch on the 430 is more sensitive that picks up the noise. It was also effecting VOR receive.

Any idea as why the noise is detectable higher up.

Good news is that the landing lights will primarily be used closer to the ground, bad news is that there is plenty of noise put out by these lights.

I have pix of the light and installation if anyone is interested, let me know and I will e-mail them out.
Click to expand...

Please email to [email protected]
 
Toobuilder said:
Are you using a ferrite, cap, or any other type of noise trap beyond the twisted power leads?

You should post your pics here.

As an aside, I washed the Rocket last night and had to go fly to "dry it off". On initial taxi, the lights broke squelch on the radio, but by the time I completed my runup they were quiet again. Don't know what the deal is there.
Click to expand...

I played with a few ferrite that I had at hand and since there was no noise on the ground, I did not know the effect of them. I have put a couple of on each side just for the heck of it.

Here are some pix that I had from my iphone.

as a reference, this is what I am changing it from

DSC_6141 by bavafa1, on Flickr

This is what you see on the inside of these lights

LL2 by bavafa1, on Flickr

So, I took the middle connection out and drilled a hole in the middle of it for a #6 screw for my positive lead.

photo by bavafa1, on Flickr

The second one looked to have the spring connection cut too short and I could detect some buzzing noise on the ground. I added a bit of spring to it to make sure a solid connection on this part.

LL4 by bavafa1, on Flickr

This is how I am mounting it, simple and the same as pervious light which has three longer #8 screw with a spring in between the bracket and the back of the wingtip. The screw/spring is not showing here and the bracket is mounted in between the head and the battery holding piece which has been shortent.

LL3 by bavafa1, on Flickr

Here it is mounted and it is somewhat adjustable with those three screws.


LL6 by bavafa1, on Flickr
 
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Don Patterson said:
Mehrdad,

Thanks for sharing your project with everyone. Are you using ship power to run these lights?

Don
Click to expand...

Correct, my buss voltage is at 14.1v.

I am going to run another test flight tonight to see if I can gather more data and see what AGL altitude I see the effect of it in my radio or nav.
 
Did you get a chance to do another flight test? How was the noise?
I Ordered some ferrites to play with, want to see what they do to the noise on the bus while w watching the signal on a scope.
Also getting a better quality driver to see if it has the same problem.
 
Thanks for the update.

I have both sides running and am happy with their output and the multi mode functions. The new side picks up some noise however, and that's proving to be a problem. It looks like it is just one unit, but I have even swapped it out with a spare and the noise continues. It's weird, I can run 3 lamps in silence, but as soon as I add that 4th, it goes haywire. Using a handheld radio confirms that the noise is coming from the unit itself, rather than throwing it into the wiring.
 
Im afraid you will be chasing noise with these and may never get enough bandaids to ever correct the problem. The reason your getting the noise can be found here in my FAQ on LED lights.
 
Kahuna said:
Im afraid you will be chasing noise with these and may never get enough bandaids to ever correct the problem. The reason your getting the noise can be found here in my FAQ on LED lights.
Click to expand...

The statements about RF noise and LEDs is actually not entirely correct. It is possible to design switching supplies that don't emit RFI. It is however not a simple task, and it does require that the design be carefully implemented such that RF noise is not created in the switching circuit, as it is true that suppression once you have a noise source is difficult and inconsistent. The key is to create a switcher that does not have RF frequency resonances in the switch-mode loop, and that requires a combination of careful layout of the circuit, and selection of components in the design. AeroLEDs initially ran into some RF issues with some of our nav/strobe products, but we have worked through the design and have identified the root cause of the issue, and have identified and implemented design changes to solve the problem. We have made an investment in RF test equipment that allows us to measure emissions, and that gave us the tools we needed to engineer the products that we make to be free of RF noise.

The advantage of a linear regulator is that is is not prone to RF noise, but the disadvantage is that it is is not as power efficient as a switcher, and has a limited voltage range of operation so you have to have voltage specific part numbers.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
Kahuna said:
Im afraid you will be chasing noise with these and may never get enough bandaids to ever correct the problem...
Click to expand...

...Except that I can get 3 out of 4 to run dead silent...

If they were all screaming, I might be more discouraged.
 
Dean_aeroleds said:
The statements about RF noise and LEDs is actually not entirely correct. It is possible to design switching supplies that don't emit RFI. It is however not a simple task, and it does require that the design be carefully implemented such that RF noise is not created in the switching circuit, as it is true that suppression once you have a noise source is difficult and inconsistent.
Click to expand...

What Dean said. I design circuits all the time with switchers that have to pass DO-160G Sec 22 cat H and P, and/or MIL-STD-461 RE102-external radiated emissions (and CE). Not that hard, but someone designing for a handheld consumer flashlight is not going to pay a lot of attention to emissions in their design.
 
Based upon my experiments with a handheld radio, it appears that my "problem child" light is throwing RFI out into the world, rather than through the wiring. Since the body of the light is aluminum and grounded to the airframe, then the only escape path is through the lens aperture.... I guess its worth a shot to place a conductive screen (faraday cage) across the lens and ground it to the airframe. Anyone see a problem with this approach?
 
Toobuilder said:
Based upon my experiments with a handheld radio, it appears that my "problem child" light is throwing RFI out into the world, rather than through the wiring. Since the body of the light is aluminum and grounded to the airframe, then the only escape path is through the lens aperture.... I guess its worth a shot to place a conductive screen (faraday cage) across the lens and ground it to the airframe. Anyone see a problem with this approach?
Click to expand...

I would be very interested in your result and how you make that.

In my experiment with these lights (I have two Trustfire 11000LM) one is dead silent and one puts out a bit of noise. Over the last few days, I ran a shielded wire for the positive side and another wire to my ground buss instead of using the airframe. I had been hoping this will make it all the better but unfortunately no change. I have looked at the guts of these lights and they are the same, not sure why one is noisy but the other one is not.

Keep us posted on your results.
 
Mehrdad - one of the more common methods of shielding display surfaces is by coating the glass with a thin layer of indium-tin-oxide (ITO). This provides a conductive surface which, if deposited thinly, has very little effect on transmissivity of the glass at light frequencies.

With respect to where the RF energy is being squirted out of the lights, unless you seal the open battery end of the light, one can rest assured that gaping hole will likewise be a large source of emissions. Keep in mind there are two categories of emissions, conducted (as in conducted along the wires) and radiated (as in squirting from the unit into free space). We are without doubt seeing both types with these lights.

The best fix would be to install a machined end cap on the battery compartment, and that end cap would contain a coaxial filter capacitor for the input power lead. Inside the battery compartment an LC network would be used as additional filtering. Granted, filtering isn't as effective as making the initial switching power supply quiet by design, but filtering is the only real option available on these wee beasts.
 
Canadian_JOY said:
Mehrdad - one of the more common methods of shielding display surfaces is by coating the glass with a thin layer of indium-tin-oxide (ITO). This provides a conductive surface which, if deposited thinly, has very little effect on transmissivity of the glass at light frequencies.

With respect to where the RF energy is being squirted out of the lights, unless you seal the open battery end of the light, one can rest assured that gaping hole will likewise be a large source of emissions. Keep in mind there are two categories of emissions, conducted (as in conducted along the wires) and radiated (as in squirting from the unit into free space). We are without doubt seeing both types with these lights.

The best fix would be to install a machined end cap on the battery compartment, and that end cap would contain a coaxial filter capacitor for the input power lead. Inside the battery compartment an LC network would be used as additional filtering. Granted, filtering isn't as effective as making the initial switching power supply quiet by design, but filtering is the only real option available on these wee beasts.
Click to expand...

Canadian_JOY,
Thanks for the info. After reading your post, I started looking at transparent ITO film/glass and learned a bit more about it. I am planning on testing this by covering the front and back portion of the light with some aluminum wraps to see if it has any effect on the noise. If that proves successful, then I will try the ITO on the lens.
The back side (battery side) of my light is open and that would be an easy fix which I will try it in the next couple of days and will report back.
 
standing by

Mehrdad

just waiting to here how you do and then I may purchase a couple of these lights. Please keep us advised on your noise smack-down.
 
As I understand a Faraday cage (not much), we really only need to seal the enclosure at the frequency we're using. So yes, there is likely RF spewing out the back of the battery tube, but if we seal it off "enough" to stop the RF from escaping, we're good.

...As I type this, I see it's probably a lot easier to block our radio transmissions from getting in than keeping the noise from getting out. The size of the aperature (holes in the screen) are pretty big to effectively contain radio transmissions, but the wavelength of the noise may be a lot smaller... May end up with something really small like the screen used in the door of a microwave oven.
 
Just as a data point on Monday night I landed at a controlled airport to drop a passenger off in pitch black overcast conditions. The tower reported me in sight at 10 miles and at no point did I pick up any noise or had any issue communicating with the tower. I don't know how picky you guys are being about noise but the RV-6 I fly gets more hash on the radio from the FAA-certified strobes and neither case causes a problem. I get a slight amount of noise from the four drop-in flashlight LEDs, only noticeable with the squelch wide open on the radio. My passenger was quite impressed with the amount of light we had.
 
Toobuilder said:
As I understand a Faraday cage (not much), we really only need to seal the enclosure at the frequency we're using. So yes, there is likely RF spewing out the back of the battery tube, but if we seal it off "enough" to stop the RF from escaping, we're good.

...As I type this, I see it's probably a lot easier to block our radio transmissions from getting in than keeping the noise from getting out. The size of the aperature (holes in the screen) are pretty big to effectively contain radio transmissions, but the wavelength of the noise may be a lot smaller... May end up with something really small like the screen used in the door of a microwave oven.
Click to expand...

I made a quick trip to the airport and sealed both the back and the front (lens) portion with no effect on the noise that I am picking up on my radio.
Again, one of my light has proven to be dead silent and one puts out a bit of noise. The next test is to swap their location or confirm to see if both together would make the noise or just one that is faulty.

As for a reference, the amount of noise on the ground is very minimal. My last two flights did not pick up any noise till I was about 6k AGL. I will be making another test flight to see if anything has changed since I messed with them again.
 
rocketbob said:
...I don't know how picky you guys are being about noise but the RV-6 I fly gets more hash on the radio from the FAA-certified strobes and neither case causes a problem...
Click to expand...

My alternator makes noise with increasing load. It's reasonable, if slightly annoying. Three of my lights do not add to this noise floor at all, but one breaks squelch loudly and shows the "Rx" light on the radio with every flash. It is beyond annoying - it's completely unacceptable.

There MUST be a fix for this, even if it means buying a few more lights to get a "good one" to complete the set.
 
Toobuilder said:
There MUST be a fix for this, even if it means buying a few more lights to get a "good one" to complete the set.
Click to expand...
I may be headed in the same direction if/when I can confirm it is the actual light and not the combination of the two of them together. I have a 50/50 shot at getting a good one at this point.

Also, I do realize that I am getting a bit obsessive with this "noise" as my noise level is bare minimum.
 
Just a brief update: I flew the airplane in full night conditions last night and can report that the Trustfire flashlights are better than any aircraft landing light I've ever flown behind. They really light up the numbers on short final, and I didn't quite realize how much untill I tried one landing with the "SOS" function going and found the effect very distracting.

Even the guy in the tower was impressed - and I never told him they were flashlights.
 
Michael,
I am also happy to report that mine now are as quite as if they are not turned on. I discovered a bit of noise that I was hearing was from my music input. I have had a few flights so far and had my lights on at different condition/altitude and I cannot detect any noise at all. The only down side to this, is that I cannot verify which function (SOS or steady on) are on.

I yet to do any night landing with them but during the day, they are very visible.
 
I have the big, wrap around "Hot Tip" lenses and the glow they provide is plenty of indication concerning the mode. I can even see the flash during the day if I look carefully enough.

Glad to hear you got yours to behave... I still have one problem child, but have not done a thing to try correct it lately.
 
Great!

Bavafa said:
Michael,
I am also happy to report that mine now are as quite as if they are not turned on. I discovered a bit of noise that I was hearing was from my music input. I have had a few flights so far and had my lights on at different condition/altitude and I cannot detect any noise at all. The only down side to this, is that I cannot verify which function (SOS or steady on) are on.

I yet to do any night landing with them but during the day, they are very visible.
Click to expand...

What did you do to eliminate the noise??
 
BillFear said:
What did you do to eliminate the noise??
Click to expand...

I ran a new shielded wire for the power and used the old/existing wire for my ground to my ground buss.

I also taped (aluminum tape) the end of the light where it was a bit open and not within aluminum housing. I honestly don?t think this had any effect but it would not harm any and was little work anyway.

I have now confirmed (multiple flight) that it has no side effect on my VOR reception or any noise on the headset. Prior to this change, my VOR would get effected as I got farther away from the VOR and in higher altitude my squelch would break-in causing statics/unwelcome noise from my radio.

Now I just need to figure out a way to differentiate between different modes while flying or pay attention not to flip the on/off switch fast to change the mode ;)
 
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