What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Horizontal vs. Vertical Induction - CONFLICTED

Peter.Fruehling

Well Known Member
Well I'm at a point where I need to make some power plant choices and order my finish kit. I had planned all along to buy a horizontal induction IO-360 (Aerosport Power) based only on the fact that I really like to look of a clean lower cowl vs. the "scoop". HOWEVER, I learned yesterday that there are LOTS of issues that I'll run in to working with horizontal induction vs. vertical induction. I heard "exhaust" and "routing" come up and just wanted to know from the group what you think.

It's one of those things...I really want horizontal induction but am a rookie builder and don't want to get myself in a bad place technically based on my personal opinion regarding aesthetics.

OK tell me how easy H/I was...or what a pain in the arse it was! :rolleyes:

- Peter
 
I didn't do the FI but I did do the Vertical induction with carb and had no issues with fitting anything. I like the snorkel.

Roberta
 
I have an Aerosport IO-360-M1 with the horizontal induction and Precision Airmotive FI. The biggest challange is the induction duct from the the front left baffle floor to the servo. Overall, not a big deal. I kept it to stock as much as possible, didn't have any big issues, and exhaust was not a problem. Anyway, that's my story. I've heard conflicts with exhaust when using the newer cool sumps but that's a different issue.
 
Thanks Jim!

...we'll see what the rest of the troops say but the more I think about it, the more it would bug me long term to alter my build just because I thought something might give me fits short term.

- Peter
 
Horizontal induction is the ONLY way to go. If you go FI, I don't see why ANYONE would go vertical induction. That said, I don't know why anyone goes with a Carb either, so I'm a biased SOB. The work is more, but worth it!
 
Hi Peter,
I have a Superior IO-360 horizontal cold induction using a precision FI and Vetterman exhaust inside a Vans cowl. It really wasn't all that much trouble to install. The Vetterman pipes on mine fit fine. I did have to move the oil drain to a side location due to the aft crossover interfering with the original location and the FAB needed some massaging to get it to fit. I'm happy with the installation. I also needed a different heat muff to make that work with the newer baffle kit that Vans sell. It seems a bit easier to install control cables and brackets by rotating the fuel servo 90 degrees. I've seen this work on my 7 and a buddy's 7a with Precision, and another 7 with Airflow performance.
 
Why is it the only way to go

Horizontal induction is the ONLY way to go. If you go FI, I don't see why ANYONE would go vertical induction. That said, I don't know why anyone goes with a Carb either, so I'm a biased SOB. The work is more, but worth it!

Stephen,

I am trying to learn what I can about this as I too need to make my engine decision. So what is the advantage to the horizontal induction. I do plan on using FI, but I have been told that the engine will cost more to have horizontal induction. Aside from no scoop (which can't make be that much drag), what are the pros and cons of the two induction systems?

Cheers
 
IO_360 induction

Hi there when we co built the 8a we used an io-360 from a mooney 200 hp front induction with snorkel provided by vans plus the vans supplied exhaust vetterman no issues with instillation very tight fit but fit wel. We have finished 25 hr test cylinder head temps on 100f day hanging from the prop 80mph< climb 360f max temp. We worked hard on getting the baffeling seal right. cannot get cylinder head temps above 360f in extended climb I have tried everything during test and temps stay 320 340 max 360. the sloped cowl with no scoop looks good. Paint is next no hurry enjoying flying too much. Met some friends at an airport sat. storms came in we all took off together i followed a mooney 201 into the air passed him very quickly love the rv speed.
cyril:
 
I went vertical induction with Precision Silver Hawk fuel injection. There were not too many issues. I had a friend machine a spacer to move the airbox down 1-1/8" so that it lined up with the snout in the cowl better. (Note: there are conflicting reports about how long the throttle body is relative to a carb. Mahlon Russell at Mattituck insists that the throttle body is an inch shorter than the carb, while Randy Lervold here insists it's the other way around. Whatever, the spacer worked well for me.)

I also had to put a slight blister in the side of the cowl to clear the mixture arm. I would have had to do this without the spacer too, since the throttle body mounts quite a bit to the left of center. This was for an RV-8. It doesn't appear that the cowl blister is required for the side-by-side versions. I used the carb FWF kit from Van's, with a couple of modifications. All control cables, etc worked fine.

Here's why I chose vertical induction. 1. It was $1000 cheaper. 2. I like the snout. 3. Although on a test stand the horizontal, cold air induction makes more power, it's unlikely the effect is as great on an RV. This is because the ram air snout on the RV cowling combined with a very efficient pressure recovery airbox from Van's if quite efficient. Sure horizontal induction is more efficient by itself, but the implementation of it in an RV cowl is not as efficient as the snout and the pressure recovery airbox.

Just my opinion, but according to a previous poster I'm an idiot for choosing this setup, so take it for what it's worth. :)
 
FWF dwgs are for Horiz only

As it turned out, I ended up with a vert induction (IO-320 D3G). Then I found that Van's FWF kit drawings, ONLY cover Horiz induction routings because Van's only sells Horiz draft engines. So be aware, that Van's drawings don't have supporting details for Vert draft arrangements. I also found that one of the fuel lines from Van's was too short for my FI Vertical arrangement and had to use a 3rd party hose.

If I were doing it over.... I'd go with Horiz draft
 
Thanks for the info guys! ...and the opinions!

I think it's going to come down to the statement that one of the people here in Minneapolis told me early on in my build: "Build it the way you really want it or you'll kick yourself later."

It does seem like there will be a little extra fit and finish but no catastrophic re-works. So on we go with Horizontal Induction! (Aerosport or course)

- Peter
 
I went vertical induction with Precision Silver Hawk fuel injection. There were not too many issues. I had a friend machine a spacer to move the airbox down 1-1/8" so that it lined up with the snout in the cowl better. (Note: there are conflicting reports about how long the throttle body is relative to a carb. Mahlon Russell at Mattituck insists that the throttle body is an inch shorter than the carb, while Randy Lervold here insists it's the other way around. Whatever, the spacer worked well for me.)
:)
The FI servo is shorter then the 360 carb and longer then the 320 carb. So the length difference of the FI servo, depends on if you are dealing with a 320 or a 360.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
Thanks again guys!

...hey by the way, I just got off the phone with Larry Vetterman and he solidified my decision to go horizontal induction. I know what you're thinking but he was nice to call and spend almost 30 minutes answering questions for me and helping me with the solution. ...will certainly be getting my 4 pipe exhaust from him!


- Peter
 
Stephen,

I am trying to learn what I can about this as I too need to make my engine decision. So what is the advantage to the horizontal induction. I do plan on using FI, but I have been told that the engine will cost more to have horizontal induction. Aside from no scoop (which can't make be that much drag), what are the pros and cons of the two induction systems?

Cheers

I'm kind of a tinker-er so I like that: Ram recover is a touch better when setup with a ram air door (Like Mooney does, or Dan Checkoway's -7).

Just about every Lancair 320/360 driver I know that has converted from vertical to horizontal has picked up at least 3kts. Some much more, but that's because of additional engine work.

I also don't like Van's Horizontal FAB design, I've only had problems with it in the field, I'm sure it could be improved though to make it more... beefy.

To top it off, the airplane is worth a little more to a buyer, and it looks a lot cleaner... although that's pretty much negated if you build a -A.
 
If you really want the scoop(no pun), call Vetterman. I asked the same things to him, he told me that they have two planes identical within their group, horizontal the other vertical. The vertical draft actually draws more map than the horizontal, he said just keep it simple and go vertical. Besides if you want mufflers, you will need to go vertical. There was NO advantage to the horizontal.
 
There was NO advantage to the horizontal.

Correct me if I'm wrong here - but doesn't the horizontal induction allow you to draw cold air to the intake versus hot? Or is this strictly a difference in the sump design that can go either way?

Cold air induction most certainly WILL offer an advantage, from the standpoint of volumetric efficiency.
 
The cold air induction is a good idea, but if I were going to do it I would do it the way Lycoming, Superior, et al want you to do it, which is to bring the air straight in through a filter and into the servo instead of having a snorkle in the cooling ramp. I believe Van does this for aesthetic reasons, but IMHO it pretty much negates the premise of the horizontal intake.

Unless Van has improved the design of the snorkles, they are pretty bad and require lots of work to make them work.

Van's horizontal intake does have one other minor problem, especially on the taildraggers -- they will fill up with water in the rain when parked. Just ask the emergency aircraft repair folks at OSH.

Build whatever you want -- don't let the folks around here try to sway you with comments like "I would NEVER build use a vertical sump", while providing absolutely no supporting facts one way or the other.

I sort of like the scoop. :) Wouldn't change anything on my plane.
 
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong. You are drawing air through the scoop on the bottom of the cowl from vans(vertical draft) right into the carb or fi unit. Hence cold induction. call Vetterman and get his take. You don't have to take my word for it.
 
I have seen 4 posts where folks are confusing horizontal vs vertical induction.
Snorkel vs scoop. FABS vs intakes.
Please be careful using these words. They are not interchangeable. Your confusing people.:confused:


Best,
 
I have seen 4 posts where folks are confusing horizontal vs vertical induction.
Snorkel vs scoop. FABS vs intakes.
Please be careful using these words. They are not interchangeable. Your confusing people.:confused:


Best,

Obviously, some people are confused. How about some education, versus criticism?
 
Cold air induction

I had an interesting conversation with Alan Barrett regarding cold air induction at their shop last week, my point being cold air induction may not be all it is cracked up to be with the exhaust pipes running right by it. Evidently intake air flowing through the Lycoming sump is subjected to some rather high temperatures at that point in the oil system and the cold air sump is much cooler notwithstanding the exhaust pipes. Bottom line is the cold air sump should provide slightly more HP simply because the air is more dense and will accomodate a greater fuel burn and HP.

I talked to Van the man at OSH about the induction situation with the Superior horizontal cold air plenum and he offered that a straight intake just below the spinner might work quite well. I tend to agree and will scope the situation out after the engine arrives. Maybe a filter system drawing internal cowl air and a direct ram bypassing the filter when inflight. I think AFP sells just such a valve device. The FM200 servo will accomodate a 3.25" duct system.

dd
 
They are all vertical

The air has to turn the corner and go vertical at some point. Either before or after the butterfly valve.
 
If you really want the scoop(no pun), call Vetterman. I asked the same things to him, he told me that they have two planes identical within their group, horizontal the other vertical. The vertical draft actually draws more map than the horizontal, he said just keep it simple and go vertical. Besides if you want mufflers, you will need to go vertical. There was NO advantage to the horizontal.

I am curious as to how the intake is plumbed to these planes. If the vertical induction plane has a lower cowl scoop, and the horizontal intake has a draggy snorkle, then equal manifold pressures make sense to me.

If the manifold pressures are the same, and the intake temperature is lower on the horizontal induction, then that engine makes a little more power.

I suspect that horizontal with the lower cowl intake makes the the best power. The guys at superior air say about 7 HP at cruise.

Hans
 
Hey I'll be honest: I POST HERE BECAUSE I'M CONFUSED in hopes of learning a thing or two from those of you that have been through what I'm going through and made the choices I'm working on now. As I said before, I'm a rookie builder and I've met some pretty smart people here.

That said, I recognize that on occasion I'll get the definitive "only way to go" advise from a builder that hasn't finished his tail kit yet but the vast majority of reply's I get here and in other threads is VERY useful so I appreciate your participation!

Based on what I've read from all of you and my conversation with Larry Vetterman today, it's horizontal induction with the standard James cowl for me. ...and that's based solely on what she will look like when I open the hangar door! I'll deal with the additional time on the build and if I gain or loose 1 knot or 10 CHT degrees so be it.

- Peter

PS - I FULLY respect those that like the look of the scoop under the cowl! In fact, it seems most prefer that. I fly one today on an RV-6 (see my avatar) and it's purely personal preference for me to go the other way.
 
Last edited:
Horizontal induction with IO sump

Peter - This is another way to get horizontal induction, AND the benefit of an IO sump. To want to pursue a modification of this magnitude, there has to be a nice list of advantages. Here's what we saw:

1) Light weight installation: O360 top end with IO sump is a nice weight saver (vs the IO cylinders)
2) Frontal induction possible - get rid of the external "snoot".
3) Separate induction air and oil compartments - cooler induction temps.
4) Simple throttle and mixture cable runs.
5) Shorter "squattier" engine vertical profiile. Better cowl clearances.

And the hurdles we'd have to jump:

1) Design & fab throttle body adapter.
2) Design & fab intake tube adapters.
3) Custom exhaust needed.
4) Design & fab intake "S" duct.
5) Find 4 IO360C intake tubes.
6) Modify sump we got for frontal servo mount.

Nomenclature, FWIW: I believe this would be called "horizontal induction" because the fuel servo is fitted horizontally onto the sump. Its the orientation of the servo (or carb) that determines what you call it. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this...

This did turn out to be a chore in terms of fabrication and involved lots of think time. I wouldn't recommend taking something like this on unless you're pretty experienced and have a well equipped shop. But here it is anyway...

........................................

We took an O360 to start, and removed the sump. Got a sump off an IO360, and machined it for a frontal servo location. This required fabbing up a special jig to hold the sump on the mill table, but the actual machining was easy since the casting was already set up for that possibility. The IO sump will bolt right up to the standard "O" case.

IO360 sump w/frontal induction
engineoilsump06.jpg

Mounts right up to the O360 case
engineoilsump07.jpg


Now things get a bit harder... We then had to design and machine a special adapter plate to mate the fuel servo to the stud pattern on the sump. The plate fits the stud pattern on the sump and the RSA5 fuel servo body fits onto it:

Adapter plate for RSA5 servo
throttlebodyadapter05.jpg


The next hat trick here is to find a way to get intake pipes to work between an "O" top end and "IO" sump. Turns out (thanks to Larry V's vast knowledge) that the IO360C engine uses intake pipes that are real close. We only had to design and machine 1/4" spacers for the pipes where they met the cylinders. But the IO360C intake pipes are getting to be very hard to find. Larry did the exhaust for us, which was non trivial even for him since a standard RV8 exhaust won't work with this combo of parts.

1/4" intake tube adapters
intaketubeadapters05.jpg

intaketubeadapters06.jpg


The final piece of the puzzle was to fab up a duct routing intake air from the air filter to the throttle body. We modified a K&N filter, and placed it in front of the left jug, mounted flat. Then we made a fiberglass duct to take the intake air to the throttle body. This was very time consuming, since I wanted a duct that had a near linear reduction in cross section, while making the "S" turn down to the throttle body. It also had to clear the cowl and starter in the process with room for movement. We call this part the "intake duct".

Fiberglass intake duct
inductionsystem03.jpg

K&N filter location
inductionsystem06.jpg


Our goal with this installation was to achieve a clean look to the cowl (no external inlet), keep the engine profile as short as possible in the vertical, keep weight down, and clean everything up to the max extent possible.

This shot of the underside shows the results pretty well
engineunderside06.jpg


You can check out all of the pictures on our Picasa Photo Album.

Good luck on your project! :D
 
Last edited:
Bill that is simply amazing!!! ...but alas, a fair bit beyond my abilities. What a SUPER mod and I'm sure others will benefit from the pics!

- Peter
 
Not at all beyond you abilities! A couple keys:

1. Find a good machine shop

2. Think each problem through

3. Spend the necessary time to devote enough attention to the details of the installation

4. Redefine what your abilities are once you see what you've created!!!
 
Info from Superior

Regarding the colder air intake and increased resultant power .... at OSH last year I talked to the Superior guys quite awhile about their horiz draft sump. (It was an easier discussion there cuz we could hold the two different sumps in our hand). They pointed out immediately that their horiz induction sump did not preheat the intake air with hot oil as does the standard Lyco sump, and resulted in more power. When I asked if they had data that showed how MUCH more power, they produced a test sheet ! It showed ... my memory is not perfect on this .. either 3 additional HP at full power, or 3 add'l knots at full power S&L flight. Either way, it convinced me (that's ME) it was not worth $1000 for the sump alone, and a guesstimated $1500 in total parts ...and a lot more fabrication effort as was documented well above.

Terry
 
horizontal vs. vertical

Not at all beyond you abilities! A couple keys:

1. Find a good machine shop

2. Think each problem through

3. Spend the necessary time to devote enough attention to the details of the installation

4. Redefine what your abilities are once you see what you've created!!!
You forgot the first step:

0. Grab a handful of cash

:)

David-Aviator said:
Go to

http://www.superiorairparts.com/pieceParts_Sumps.asp

This site shows the horizontal cold air intake and if you click on the window below the image, it will show you the standard vertical intake.
Thanks David - that clarifies things a lot!

Bill - really nice looking installation!
 
Let's get some basic issues on the table - I believe all these statements are correct, I'm sure y'all will chime in if they're not :),

Reasons for horizontal intakes: the engine makes more power, a flat bottomed cowl can be used that looks way better (IMHO!), easier to install the injector body.

Reasons against horizontal intakes: more expensive, perhaps have to make your own throttle & mixture cable brackets, may have to use 4 pipe exhaust

Reasons for vertical intake: cheaper, uses 'regular' Vetterman exhaust.

Reasons against vertical intake: The engine makes less power, [because the injector body is a different length to both the O-320 & O-360 carb] have to use a (real ugly) O-360 cowl scoop on an O-320 airplane, have to make a spacer between injector body & engine (both engines) to get the FAB to line up with the inlet hole in the cowl, need an alternate mixture rotation injector body.

Other issues, if you decide to use an Airflow Performance injection system it is difficult to fit a FAB on a vertical induction set up. It is less difficult with a horizontal intake set up - but not as easy as with a Precision (Silver Hawk) injector. If a non-Lyc sump is used custom throttle & mixture cable brackets will probably be required. There are a couple of 'after-market' induction set ups - see Sky Dynamics website.

I have spent way too much time looking to why engines with horizontal intakes make more power than those with vertical intakes. Its a fact that they do, but there's not much data to suggest why. I am reasonably sure that it is not because the intake air does not travel through a hot sump - the air just doesn't spend sufficient time passing through the sump to heat up appreciably. Rather I think it is because of a much smoother routing. The air coming into a vertical induction sump hits a flat plate before dividing off into the intake tubes. A horizontal sump divides the inlet air off in a much more gentle way, so inlet loses are lower, and so the inlet pressure at the inlet valve is greater. I think the Superior horizontal sump is better in this regard to the Lyc version.

Pete
 
The answer is SIMPLE! ha ha

Well I'm at a point where I need to make some power plant choices and order my finish kit. I had planned all along to buy a horizontal induction IO-360 (Aerosport Power) based only on the fact that I really like to look of a clean lower cowl vs. the "scoop". HOWEVER, I learned yesterday that there are LOTS of issues that I'll run in to working with horizontal induction vs. vertical induction. I heard "exhaust" and "routing" come up and just wanted to know from the group what you think.

It's one of those things...I really want horizontal induction but am a rookie builder and don't want to get myself in a bad place technically based on my personal opinion regarding aesthetics.

OK tell me how easy H/I was...or what a pain in the arse it was! :rolleyes:

- Peter
Vertical, period end of story.......ha ha. Was that short enough.

Look vertical is just as good and is cheaper to purchase.

There is no doubt the no scoop Vans cowl is cool looking, no doubt, and Van's initial flight test and development estimated that it was good for about 2 or three MPH. So its good looking and practical, with some caveats.

Vans Horz FAB (flat filter in left cowl cooling inlet) can give approx +0.10 in-hg more MAP than the already good recovery from the Vert FAB at top speed. This info is again from Van the Man himself, estimate. So another plus for Horz Induction but not much.

All air that goes into the engine has to take a 90 degree turn. Whether that turn happens in the air-box first (Vertical induction) or later in the plenum (Horz induction), turn it must.

If you have the money and aesthetics are critical to you, HORZ is better because you don't lose anything for fashion. you just don't gain a lot. You have to decide if the cost premium is worth it.

Obviously this is moot for Carb users. So the conflicts is only for FI.

If you go with a stock cowl than there is not much heartache. If you go with a Sam James Cowl, short version to work with a stock Hartzell, their fwd induction air-box and scoop is a pain or does not work at all.

If you go with Sam James and fwd horz induction, you really need their long cowl to make room for the induction. The down side is you now need a Hartzell with a longer hub which is more expensive. If going fixed prop its not a big deal because you use an extension anyway. A longer extension on a fixed prop is not a big deal. My point is the Horz induction adds some complication and a cascade of compromises if you go with a Sam James cowl. The SJ cowl is good for about 5 mph even with a belly scoop for vertical induction.

The best advice I suggest is WORK IT ALL OUT, Prop, induction, cowl. Make sure they all work together and compatible. There is the easy way, vans cowl and airboxes, which work together. The Vans Vert/Horz FAB are not that much difference in work to install. If you built the plane you can install either airbox.

If going with a Sam James cowl, there can be more hassle and work (greif) with a short cowl and horz induction to make it work. If you go with the longer cowl to make the induction work, a standard hub Hartzell c/s prop will not work.
 
Last edited:
Vertical, period end of story.......ha ha.

Geo, I liked that answer but I have a question.

Looking at the snorkel thing that takes the air from the left inlet directs it down to the inlet seems like a good way to lose some power.

Wouldn't it be better to go with the horizontal induction AND use the lower cowl for the carburetor?
(Of course you would have to take a deduction for looks.)

With this set up, I wonder if you would gain some MP, maybe 1/2" or so from the ram effect.

Thoughts?
 
Good Question - lets go to the dead sea scrolls

Geo, I liked that answer but I have a question.

Looking at the snorkel thing that takes the air from the left inlet directs it down to the inlet seems like a good way to lose some power. (yep but it does not)

Wouldn't it be better to go with the horizontal induction AND use the lower cowl for the carburetor?
(Of course you would have to take a deduction for looks.)

With this set up, I wonder if you would gain some MP, maybe 1/2" or so from the ram effect. (1/2" of what relative to what)

Thoughts?
How do the French say "Contraire Mon frair" (Bart Simpson says it as well).

From a gut intuitive glance you would think Van's Horz FAB, with that long snorkel and 90 deg turn, would be less efficent, but it is not. It is a tad better then the Vert FAB, only a 1/10 or two MAP (in-hg). That gain is worth a HP or two, which gives a fraction of a MPH increase in speed. No big deal. The no scoop drag reduction is the real gain. The point is the Horz FAB is NOT bad and would be hard to improve upon significantly.

DON'T take my word for it. Go and find the back issue of the RVator with a lengthy detailed article written by Richard Vangrunsven about the development of the Horz Air-box. I don't think Van was certain the Horz Air-box would work at first, but he built and tested it. It works. The cost of a horz plenum on a 160/180 HP angle valve is not trivial from what I recall. If buying a new engine you have the option. If going 200HP angle valve they are all Horz induction. It comes down to personal preference, financial, overall configuration and goals.

++++++++++++

Why does Van's Horz air-box work so well?

First look at Van's vertical FAB. It slows air (trumpet shape diffuser), air goes past the filter at lower speed & higher pressure, than enters the Carb/FI with a smooth 360 degree flow. Brilliant and not that different than my 1969 Chevy stock snorkel air cleaner housing sitting on the carb.

For the Horz air-box, Van was clever to used the recovery of the exisiting cowl inlet as a scoop. He knew there was good pressure recovery in the first 6"-8" of the cowl, a "WALL" of pressure across the cowl inlet, where the air stagnates. It turns out to be an excellent place for pressure recovery. Often you see oil coolers in this location on some planes. Why not use the cowl inlet for double duty, engine cooling and induction.

One side advantage the HORZ FAB has over the VERT FAB is no leaks. That is hard to seal the Vert FAB and cowl with soft soft seals and relative movement.

Once the air high pressure air goes through the flat K&N filter, it has a large volume box to feed the engine smoothly with out turbulence, a nice diffuser (like a horn) from large to small. YES there's loss with a longer induction. Yes the 90 deg turn at the bottom is not ideal, but some of that is compensated for with nice smooth curved surfaces.

Engine induction flow pulses, start and stop as valves open and close. The long diffuser acts as an air reservoir (eg, hydraulic accumulator). The engine does not suck like a jet, continuously. The air has inertia that ripples back from the intakes ports as the valve closes. You want POS pressure and VOLUME behind the intake valve as it opens. This is where "tuned" induction and tuned exhaust come in, to control these pulses. The air box is an extension of the "tuned intake" which is really an extension of the "tuned exhaust". You want pressure and VOLUME in your air box if you have room.

++++++++++++

Van's Horz air-box has NO scoop, so it wins the min external drag competition. This is the MAIN benefit of the Van HORZ FAB design is no scoop, plus it looks cool. I just don't think its worth +$1000 to buy the Horz engine induction. I could be wrong about the price premium. If its a IO360 (200HP) Horz induction is standard. If you have a angle valve (horz induction) there is no option from Van. We are talking about 1 or 2 mph more speed with the so scoop. So even if you lost a 1/10 in-hg MAP it would be a plus. As you point out exhaust 4-into-1 is easier with Horz induction.

I went Vertical because I have a carb, but I also wanted a SHORT cowl allowing me to use a standard Hartzell hub prop. I also wanted a Sam James style of cowl (modified stock cowl). So any one of these factors pointed to vertical induction. I will gain at least 6 mph with my SJ style cowl (modified stock), making up for the "ugly" scoop.


++++++++++++

At 175 mph (TAS) cruise you have about (1 ) inch-hg pressure, if you recover 100% of all dynamic pressure. Sadly there aren't many things 100% efficient, including RV scoops and air-boxes. As you know slowing air increase pressure, ie Bernoulli. It takes some room to do that, ideally a gradual change in area to avoid turbulence.

There's about 0.50 in-hg internal engine loss from FI throttle body to the intake valve. If MAP us equal to ambient pressure you need at least 0.50" recovery. Most RV's have a MAP of 0.00 to +0.30 inch-hg relative to ambient pressure. That means total efficiency of the scoop/air-box is around 50% to 75%, which is very good. You're going to have a hard time doing significantly better with the physical limitations.

Higher MAP gains for some RV's are because they're much faster; they have more speed & dynamic pressure to work with. When comparing "RAM RISE" you have to know TAS & density altitude. 210 mph TAS is +1.50 in-hg, another 0.50 in-hg over 175 mph. The angle valve 360 Lyc (200HP) has less internal induction loss I assume. A 220 mph RV-8 with a 200 HP lyc will have more MAP regardless of airbox.

Look at Cessna and Piper performance charts. You're lucky to have minus 1 in-hg MAP in cruise, in part due to lower airspeed, less pressure to recover and a terrible air-box and poor filter location. Cessna plasters the air-filter on the nose bowl. The air hits it at high speed; the filter is like a brick to the air, bouncing off, with little or no pressure recovery.

Notice both of Van's FAB have pressure recovery (slowing air) before the filter. It's not so obvious with the Horz FAB but trust me, the engine cowl inlet is a scoop with good pressure recovery. This is where the Horz FAB filter is.

A note about filters. The K&N AIR FILTER have very little loss, about 0.05 in-hg at rated flow and CLEAN AIR FILTER. Clean your filter often. Running no filter is not recommended for daily flying in my opinion. Actually air filters straighten out the flow and can be better than no air filter.

How do you slow air down? You need ROOM and a "diffuser", a classic BELL MOUTH shape, going from small to large with a nice gradual curved surface. The mouth of a carb / FI is not large, so you than need to transition back down to the mouth of the Carb or FI. Designing a good air box is not easy.
 
Last edited:
Not True, Get Your Facts Straight

Let's get some basic issues on the table - I believe all these statements are correct, I'm sure y'all will chime in if they're not :),

Reasons for horizontal intakes: the engine makes more power, a flat bottomed cowl can be used that looks way better (IMHO!), easier to install the injector body.

Reasons against horizontal intakes: more expensive, perhaps have to make your own throttle & mixture cable brackets, may have to use 4 pipe exhaust

Reasons for vertical intake: cheaper, uses 'regular' Vetterman exhaust.

Reasons against vertical intake: The engine makes less power, [because the injector body is a different length to both the O-320 & O-360 carb] have to use a (real ugly) O-360 cowl scoop on an O-320 airplane, have to make a spacer between injector body & engine (both engines) to get the FAB to line up with the inlet hole in the cowl, need an alternate mixture rotation injector body.

Other issues, if you decide to use an Airflow Performance injection system it is difficult to fit a FAB on a vertical induction set up. It is less difficult with a horizontal intake set up - but not as easy as with a Precision (Silver Hawk) injector. If a non-Lyc sump is used custom throttle & mixture cable brackets will probably be required. There are a couple of 'after-market' induction set ups - see Sky Dynamics website.

I have spent way too much time looking to why engines with horizontal intakes make more power than those with vertical intakes. Its a fact that they do, but there's not much data to suggest why. I am reasonably sure that it is not because the intake air does not travel through a hot sump - the air just doesn't spend sufficient time passing through the sump to heat up appreciably. Rather I think it is because of a much smoother routing. The air coming into a vertical induction sump hits a flat plate before dividing off into the intake tubes. A horizontal sump divides the inlet air off in a much more gentle way, so inlet loses are lower, and so the inlet pressure at the inlet valve is greater. I think the Superior horizontal sump is better in this regard to the Lyc version.

Pete


"Other issues, if you decide to use an Airflow Performance injection system it is difficult to fit a FAB on a vertical induction set up. It is less difficult with a horizontal intake set up - but not as easy as with a Precision (Silver Hawk) injector."

This statement is incorrect. The Airflow Performance fuel injection kit (P/N 8000014) for a vertical sump 360 is fits in EXACTLY the same space as the MA4-5 carburetor. The kit comes with the sump adapter, throttle cable and mixture control cable brackets and the air box adapter to fit to Van's filtered air box. There is no modifications, spacers, or other parts needed to make this system fit in the aircraft. RV's with nose gear will require a modification of the mixture control cable bracket to clear the nose gear/motor mount structure.


Don
 
Hey Don - do you think you could do us all a favor and cram some more zeros into your part numbers?

(Humor, humor - no crankiness allowed....:rolleyes:)
 
Great Thread, Is there a thread about Air filters and who does/does not need them??

I am planning a SJ cowl with IO360 Horz induction. Not clear why I would need a inlet filter. I know it sounds like a strange question. Try not to flame too hard.

- Ron O.
 
Don is exactly correct.
His vert intake exactly fits the vans FAB to scoop cowl just fine.
I know cause I have fit several.
 
Vertical, period end of story.......ha ha. Was that short enough.

Look vertical is just as good and is cheaper to purchase.

There is no doubt the no scoop Vans cowl is cool looking, no doubt, and Van's initial flight test and development estimated that it was good for about 2 or three MPH. So its good looking and practical, with some caveats.

Vans Horz FAB (flat filter in left cowl cooling inlet) can give approx +0.10 in-hg more MAP than the already good recovery from the Vert FAB at top speed. This info is again from Van the Man himself, estimate. So another plus for Horz Induction but not much.

All air that goes into the engine has to take a 90 degree turn. Whether that turn happens in the air-box first (Vertical induction) or later in the plenum (Horz induction), turn it must.

If you have the money and aesthetics are critical to you, HORZ is better because you don't lose anything for fashion. you just don't gain a lot. You have to decide if the cost premium is worth it.

Obviously this is moot for Carb users. So the conflicts is only for FI.

If you go with a stock cowl than there is not much heartache. If you go with a Sam James Cowl, short version to work with a stock Hartzell, their fwd induction air-box and scoop is a pain or does not work at all.

If you go with Sam James and fwd horz induction, you really need their long cowl to make room for the induction. The down side is you now need a Hartzell with a longer hub which is more expensive. If going fixed prop its not a big deal because you use an extension anyway. A longer extension on a fixed prop is not a big deal. My point is the Horz induction adds some complication and a cascade of compromises if you go with a Sam James cowl. The SJ cowl is good for about 5 mph even with a belly scoop for vertical induction.

The best advice I suggest is WORK IT ALL OUT, Prop, induction, cowl. Make sure they all work together and compatible. There is the easy way, vans cowl and airboxes, which work together. The Vans Vert/Horz FAB are not that much difference in work to install. If you built the plane you can install either airbox.

If going with a Sam James cowl, there can be more hassle and work (greif) with a short cowl and horz induction to make it work. If you go with the longer cowl to make the induction work, a standard hub Hartzell c/s prop will not work.
You about covered it, George, except cold air induction. What's your take on it?
 
The Difference

I know I'm confused!

Are there any diagrams of the difference between horizontal and vertical induction?

Mickey,
First check out the link provided below to Vans web site. Nice drawing of both types of induction. See

https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/engine_id_form.pdf

I have enclosed some photos to show the difference. The first three show the sump used for horizontal induction, with a forward facing servo Like those used on the angle valve 200HP IO-360-Axx series and the 180HP parallel valve IO-360-M1B which Vans sells. The sumps on these engines hold the oil in the upper chamber and have a plenum in the lower section. The intake air passes through this lower chamber.

IO-360HorizontalSumpfrontview_zps889f8c39.jpg


Note the smooth holes where the intake tubes go in. This style of horizontal induction uses intake tubes which use large O-rings to seal the tube to the intake plenum. This is a common area for air intake between the servo and the intake tubes. This Plenum [common area] does not exist on the vertical induction sumps.

IO-360HorizontalSumpsideview_zpse6693d2f.jpg


Top view of the horizontal induction sump.

IO-360HorizontalSumptopview_zps43d4182d.jpg


The vertical induction sumps, used on both carburetor and fuel injected engines will be shown below, once I locate appropriate photos on my hard drive.
Note that you can see the intake tubes are cast into the vertical induction sumps. Note that the air has to make a severe (tight) 90 degree turn from vertical to horizontal. This is less than ideal for good induction. This sudden 90 degree turn also causes some of the fuel to come out of suspension with the air on carburetor engines. This design flaw is partially responsible for not being able to run lean of peak with a carburetor. Superior modified their vertical sumps in an attempt to alleviate this problem.
Also note that these tubes will be completely surrounded by hot oil. The oil will increase the temperature of the air in those tubes, thus making it less dense. Less dense means less oxygen. That's a BAD thing.
The intake tubes which mate into the vertical sump on the right are of unequal length. If you want a smooth idle and maximum power, this is also a BAD thing.
It is not readily apparent in the drawing of the horizontal sump on the left, but there is a wall which separates the hot oil from the intake plenum (fancy word which means a chamber). This wall, or floor, keeps the oil away from the intake air. It's not a perfect design, as the floor itself will transfer some heat into the plenum.
Superior, ECI and Sky Dynamics created true "cold sump" designs. The plenum on their designs has no contact with the hot oil section.
Look for the letter A, surrounded by a black circle on the horizontal induction sump on the left. Note that the floor of the area with oil in it rises slightly, just below that letter A. The floor is not flat there, because they needed to neck down the air intake area of the lower sump (with cool air in it) there. That area is just behind where the FI servo mounts onto the front face of the sump. The front face is unseen in this drawing.


VerticalInductionSumpbottomview2_zps56f22a33.jpg


I've lost the photo I had of what the inside of a vertical induction sump looks like. I'm attaching the drawing below to replace it.

Lycoming%20O-320%20Vertical%20Induction%20Sump%20Carb%20amp%20Intake%20Tubes_zpsj6hmbu8n.jpg


This second image shows a horizontal plenum style sump. The area I have marked in red is the location of the floor which divides the area of the sump which contains hot oil, from the plenum area, which is part of the induction system.

Horizontal%20Induction%20Sump%20showing%20dividing%20line%20between%20oil%20sump%20and%20air%20induction%20plenum_zpsgv5apgph.jpg


The original images have been deleted from my account somehow. Perhaps I offended Lycoming and they had the images removed?? Still looking for them on my hard drive. I'll put them back up when I find them. In the mean time. Here is a photo of this style of sump. Ignore the red circle. This photo was originally taken to show where the sump had been damaged.

IO-360Sumparea_zps556b936c.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

All horizontal FI Lycoming engines which use a plenum, also have equal length intake tubes. The external portion of these tubes may not APPEAR equal in length. To make them equal, some of the tubes which appear shorter, extend farther into the sump's plenum area.
Please note the distinction of horizontal induction sumps WITH a plenum, as there are a few fuel injected Lycomings which have horizontal induction, but without the plenum. The IO-360-B1E is an example of this non plenum, horizontal (rear facing) design.
As George M. stated earlier in his excellent and detailed post, tuned intakes and tuned exhaust lengths are desirable for maximum power. Look at the intake design of an modern Corvette, Trans Am or Mustang 5.0 engines. They all use equal length intake runners feeding into a common plenum.
A plenum allows the air to change direction in a more gradual way. This is another reason why the horizontal sumps with plenums are superior in design.
Vertical sump = 1950's designed by a plumber!
Horizontal plenum style sump = late 1980's automotive design. This is one place where Lycoming showed the auto industry how to do it.
I hope this clears things up a bit.
Charlie Kuss
 
Last edited:
Fewer directional changes

The air has to turn the corner and go vertical at some point. Either before or after the butterfly valve.

True, but the bends in the vertical sump system are more restrictive than the horizontal plenum style. The vertical style sump requires the air to turn from vertical to horizontal in a very poor tube design inside the sump. (See my post above) It then turns from horizontal to vertical AGAIN in the unequal length intake tubes.
The horizontal plenum style sump requires fewer changes of direction. It also does not require any severe directional changes. A plenum also offers improved torque at low to mid range power settings.
Charlie Kuss
 
I would like to point out that the horz. induction on the 7A, (and i believe any A model) will require vettermans 4 pipe system. No cross over exhaust system is available. For those with the tail wheel models, there is a nice 4 into1, that appears to work just fine.

I will be mounting my engine (ECI IO360 w/ Horz. induction), exhaust, and cowl, using Vetterman's 4 pipe system. I hope to put to rest some of the issues involved with the installation on my 7A. :eek::rolleyes:

http://www.eaa538.org/phpbb3/download/file.php?id=177
 
Last edited:
vertical vrs horizontal

I am surprised at the amount of response to this question. I have been dealing with these issues for 3 years now and have drawn some conclusions as a result of builder/customer input.
Where is the discussion about horsepower vrs cost. If you want a forward facing sump and are looking for one, Good Luck. Option's are few and choices are Superior cold air or Barrett. Both are costly and how much HP is gained over the vertical sump, found on most engines, is still up in the air.
The volumetric efficiency is being approached at several levels and the goal is to provide more air so we can burn more fuel. HP
Pressure losses come from different sources in the system and every turn, bend, filter takes away from the air needed to make HP.

An example would be when testing my ram air valve at LY-CON's flow bench I discovered that by flairing the 1/8" lip of the ram air valve I gained 5 CFM.
Not much gain never the less a gain.

Working with Don at AFP, he addressed the pressure loss with his vertical sump elbow and concluded that the 540 cu in motors needed this solved more that the 360 series motors.
Case in point, there is more advantage to cold air sumps on the 540 than on the forward facing sump 360's. In a discussion at the OSH Barrtett display, nice gal, she also indicated the same thing about gains associated with cold air induction for both engines. Not that much advantage for the 360.

Ever notice that Reno formula one bi-planes have long snout's with relatively small (3") inlets. I think that larger inlet rings produce more drag and offsets the HP gain. They need the room for a 7.5 degree diffuser from the inlet to the servo. Just my guess.

Think about picking up inlet air from the rear baffel or the left front baffel as in Van's smooth cowl system. The trade off is how it looks to the builder.
I think that the 3" inlet located on the cowl about 3.5" below the spinner bulhead produces the best high pressure air (prop and relative forward AS) and has the least amount of drag.

Ram air should produce about 1.0 to 1.5" over filtered air and customers have claimed getting about 3-4 mph. Read the in flight results on my web/testimonials. WWW.ramairforhomebuilts.com

Conclusion:

Looks aside, the vertical sump is more available and suffers very little pressure loss. Less costly.
Use an elbow to provide the horizontal servo and lower cowling profiles.
If having an extra inch MP, going up 1000' higher and saving fuel is important, go with Ram Air, Higher compression, flowed heads and electronic ignition.

Rod Bower
Starduster II
RV-3
RV-4
RV-8
RV-8 Bronze OSH 08
Stewart S-51 mustang
 
Mickey,

Go to

http://www.superiorairparts.com/pieceParts_Sumps.asp

This site shows the horizontal cold air intake and if you click on the window below the image, it will show you the standard vertical intake.

NOTE TO MODERATOR: PLEASE DELETE THIS POSTING AND ORIGINAL POSTING.

There are viruses infecting the Superior website and clicking on the link provided will infect your computer: Exploit and JS/Downloader Agent

Thanks, Vern Little
 
"Other issues, if you decide to use an Airflow Performance injection system it is difficult to fit a FAB on a vertical induction set up. It is less difficult with a horizontal intake set up - but not as easy as with a Precision (Silver Hawk) injector."

This statement is incorrect. The Airflow Performance fuel injection kit (P/N 8000014) for a vertical sump 360 is fits in EXACTLY the same space as the MA4-5 carburetor. The kit comes with ... and the air box adapter to fit to Van's filtered air box. (snip)
Don

(Slightly tardy reply - apologies) Clearly Don knows more about this that I do, but all I can say is that my AFP system did not come with any kind of device to help fit the Van's FAB to it. The AFP servo was attached to my engine when I bought it so how I would I get to know that the kit quoted above was available?

Don, its great that you post here, but none of us know the right questions to ask and your web site doesn't make it easy to figure out what is available! Could I suggest you consider sending out some information with the servos that you send to engine builders so that the customer knows what is available to make the installation task easier?

Pete
 
Thanks for the info guys! ...and the opinions!

I think it's going to come down to the statement that one of the people here in Minneapolis told me early on in my build: "Build it the way you really want it or you'll kick yourself later."

It does seem like there will be a little extra fit and finish but no catastrophic re-works. So on we go with Horizontal Induction! (Aerosport or course)

- Peter

I'm in the middle of it right now. Call Vetterman and discuss exhaust systems before you order. Tail wheels have more options. I have a tri-gear, and you only have one option.

So far the rest appear only minor. I did have trouble with the studs being too short for the horz mixture mounting bracket, it appears to be either a builder or ECI issue, I have an email into the builder, and am waiting for a reply.

2lo6m4y.jpg
 
rebooting this thread...

I'm building an RV-9A QB. Want to order the finish kit in January and need to decide what engine and setup I want and need.

My priorities are:

  1. 320 size engine
  2. Fixed prop
  3. Fuel Injection
  4. Ease of install/assy/construction
  5. Muffled exhaust

As I understand it, if I want a muffler then I must go vertical induction (Vetterman exhaust). I don't mind the scoop one way or the other, and a few mph or fpm loss doesn't concern me either.

Can I do this? That is, fuel injection, muffler, and vertical induction?
Does a muffler cut the noise much, both external and in the cockpit? If not, I'll skip this.

EDIT2: I talked to Larry Vetterman, here's the Word from the Man.
Mufflers work with forward-facing intake, that is, vertical induction, ONLY. This is for both carbureted and injected intakes. No mufflers for horizontal induction.

Are mufflers worthwhile? I don't have liberty to give names, but he cited two cases. First, a well-known RVer is changing their airplane from horizontal to vertical induction to get mufflers on the plane. Second, another well-known RVer who flies a lot most days added mufflers and reports being less fatigued at the end of the day because of reduced noise. Larry does not claim a muffler eliminates all or even most noise (you still have prop noise and still have some engine noise) but they definitely help.

As to the Vetterman web site that says: "There are no muffler systems available for injected models", that refers to horizontal induction and Larry said he would clarify that sentence.

Like the Original Poster of this thread, I'm not a skilled creator or crafty guy...I can follow instructions and have acquired some mechanical skills but do not want to get into making original fiberglass or machined parts.

AdThanksvance
 
Last edited:
FI and mufflers

I think you are misreading Vetterman's site - his mufflers will not work with the injected engine that Van's supplies (horizontal induction) but work fine with an injected vertical induction engine. The "footprint" of the injector body is very close to that of a carb.
This based on a conversation with Larry Vetterman - I am installing a vertical induction Precision injected 0-360, and a muffled Vetterman exhaust. Larry says it is a good combination.
I expect to be installing the exhaust in a few weeks
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A finishing kit
 
Back
Top