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Franklin, the next standard RV engine?

E

EDog

Member
I am putting this post on the traditional aircraft engine side because of Franklins history and to follow up on a 2005 post about using them in RV's. Also wouldn't it be great to have one more standard engine option?

I just spent the week at OSH to figure out what engine and firewall forward options I have for my RV8 project. After talking to many RV builders and engine manufactures I bumped into Franklin engines. I know they went under some time ago and parts have been hard to find.

I learned that the entire production was taken over by a new company located in Poland, I was able to talk to the new owner and he informed me that Franklin is now making new engines (not repackaged old parts) and has plans on expanding is factory to the US.

Parked in Franklins booth was an RV8, the Purple Passion II built by Claudio Tonnini and powered by the Franklin 220. Claudio had nothing but great things to say about performance, reliability, and the general idea of using the 220 over the 360.

I have done a bunch of homework and know the issues some people have run into and why most people don't use them in RV's, mostly due to availability and standard firewall forward kits. But that aside, if the new owner of Franklin provides a standard firewall forward kit, and the engines now comes with fuel injection, electronic ignition and produce 220 HP for around the same weight as the 360 why not use the Franklin? Here are some pros and cons that I cam up with. Any input would be great.

Given that a firewall forward kit wold be available and parts are now being produced for the Franklin 220.

Pros:
About the same weight of a 360
Produces 220 HP
Same fuel consumption as a 360
Smoother running
Bottom end inspection plate
Costs much less


Cons:
Lower TBO time, around 1500 Hrs
Vans's Support
???
 
If my memory is correct Van's stuck a Franklin on the front of an RV-8 several years ago. I do not remember any of the specifics. I think the 8 was dubbed "Fraklestien"

I'm sure someone else will remember more and chime in.
 
I owned 2 Stinsons with Franklins and found them to be A-OK. Smooth, and sound great.

If the fuel injection and electronic ignition work as they should, I'd not hesitate for a minute to try one.
 
Franklin 220

I have an RV8 with a PZL-220 engine and am very happy with the installation and performance of it. With a light speed ignition and an Ellison TB on it. I have about 250 hours on the rig and I fly around at 62.5% HP with about 7.2 GPH lean side of peak. Weight of the airplane with CS prop came out to be just about the same as my friends RV8 with a 360 and fixed pitch prop.

Smooth running, good economy, less filling, great head turner when you taxi up.
Gary
 
I would very much like to see one in a SARL race

What is the displacement of the engine? I would like to see one in a SARL cross country air race and get some race speed numbers in the database. We have 1373 race flights in the database now. It would be a reason to add an engine column which we do not have at this time.

Bob Axsom
 
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How much do you think they do/will cost? Still saving for my engine and fwf.

bird
 
I've also have been following Franklin hoping they will follow through with the RV set up. I had flown a Old Miller converted Apache years ago with the 220's and it was SWEET, great power, climb, fuel efficient and very s m o o t h.
I believe they had a 1500 hr TBO but for the price who cared, also the cam was under the crank.
 
I used to work on a Stinson that had a Franklin 220. I've always liked these engines. Sleeved cylinders (easy overhaul), can pull the top cover to easily inspect the bottom end and replace tappets. Since the Franklin uses the Continental hub flange bolt pattern, lots of used Mooney props available that would work well.
 
CompAir used to offer a complete kit including the Franklin 220 engine. I don't think they actually ever delivered one.

As I understand it, they had trouble getting complete engines and/or parts. Of course that was a few years ago. Things may have changed.
 
Franklin Sport 4B 125 HP

Our first project was a Wittman Tailwind W8 and it had a Franklin Sport 4B 4 cyl 125 hp on the nose. I never flew it but the few times my dad did he loved it! One of the hanger neighbors in Kingman, AZ has an older Cessna with a 220 mounted and he has nothing but positive things to say about it. Kind of like a "sleeper" in the Cessna. Sounds good I can tell you that. I have a list of engines for my -7 and I still have the Franklin listed. I'd seriously consider it if it ever comes to as a viable option.
 
Alternative engine for RV-14?

Before a single RV-14 kit is produced, I'm a bit reluctant to suggest an alternative to the IO-390, but this seems like it might fit the bill. I'm not an expert on the Franklin, but it appears to be lighter and slightly more horsepower than the IO-390. I'm not sure what the cost of a Franklin is, but I can only imagine that it'd be cheaper than the 390.
 
Van's fit one of these to an RV-8 and wrote about it in the RVator in 1998-99. They said it took a lot of extra work to install, and estimated it added 30 pounds over the IO-360. They also saw improved climb and cruise performance over the Lycoming and estimated its power output at 210 hp.

Sounds like an interesting choice if you're willing and able to tackle the installation issues.
 
The price for a fully certified 220 directly from the factory runs in the high 29K range. The certified one is runs a carb and has mags. I asked about non certified with the fuel injection and electronic ignition and he told me that it would be about 20K. :)
 
w

Eddy, welcome to VAF.

I flew a Stinson 108-3 with a Franklin 160 hp for years, good steady and SMOOTH running engine

I had a few friends with the 220/CS prop, and that was a wonderful setup.
 
I'll be watching this thread. I, too, saw the Franklin booth at OSH and was interested, if only because here was an engine builder I'd never heard of. I always like to find additional options, you know.

Maybe by the time I have to think seriously about my engine, there will be some better info in Franklin.

:)
 
I know Claudio Tonnini, he's a great guy but I know he had multiple engine outs during his early test flights. From my exsperance any significant change adds lots of extra time to the build. One other reason one my not want to use an "unpopular" engine is finding someone that can work on the engine or even the ability to get parts. Now that being said I think it's great that builders make these modifications because that's what it's all about.
 
A friend of mine has a Stinson 108-3 that has needed an engine overhaul for as long as I have known him. Not a single mechanic around will even touch the thing. Maybe they think they'll get Kooties ? from it, i dunno.
 
Here is what the proposed firewall forward kit would look like. I am going to stay in touch with the owner and keep you all up to date on how things pan out with Franklin. Till then thank you for the warm welcome and responses, I look forward to more.

RV8Franklin.jpg

RV8Franklin2.jpg
 
EDog said:
Here is what the proposed firewall forward kit would look like. I am going to stay in touch with the owner and keep you all up to date on how things pan out with Franklin. Till then thank you for the warm welcome and responses, I look forward to more.
Click to expand...

I saw the owner of that airplane today and will probably see him tomorrow as well. His hangar is adjacent to mine. If you have any questions, I'll be glad to ask him.
 
220 franklin

I am one of only a few mechanics in our local area that works on Franklins. They are great engines. Some of the older designs had trouble with cracking cylinders and/or cases which sadly gave the brand black marks. If the newer 125 & 220 HP engines are maintained and operated per Franklin's instructions, they are solid, economical, and very powerful engines. The 220's Horsepower per cubic inch is greater than most engines out there. Also the Franklin's power is corrected SAE net (real world) horsepower. Continental and Lycoming's horsepower numbers are..umm....er...optomistic. The down side is basicly two factors in the USA right now there is limited support as far as engines, parts, and people familiar with the engine to work on them. A common mistake is to treat them the same as a Lycoming especialy during overhaul. As an example Franklins require that the cylinder bases be stress-relived and shot-peened using steel shot during overhaul. Alot of engine shops are not setup to do this. The other issue (if you want to call it that) is that the 220hp has 10.5/1 compression and what they used to call a 3/4 race cam so it requires 100 octane fuel. I hope these great engines have a resurgance and grow in popularity, competition is good for everyone. Russ
 
Phone number doesn't work

Not a good start - I called the number listed on the Franklin web site, and got a recording that it is not a working number. Also, the site indicates that the business is for sale. Disappointing. I was looking forward to examining some options for my -6. Oh well - unless something changes, back to Lycosaurus. :confused:
 
If I recall clearly the Franklin uses a bed mount like a Merlin, as opposed to a conical/dynafocal/etc. that mounts just to the back of the engine like a Lycoming. The bed may need to be a significantly beefier mount than a standard O-320/360 mount, especially if you factor in the need for aerobatic loads.

Is anyone flying a Franklin and doing aerobatics? Curious how it performs relative to a Lycoming.
 
About 28 years ago, when I had my first Bellanca Cruisemaster, I took several friends flying, to get them hooked. ;) It worked too. :D
Greg B bought a Stinson 108-2, the first plane he ever rode in as a 10 year old boy!
So I rode in it with a 165 Franklin. Then he upgraded. Naturally I encouraged the Continental O-470, but he went with the Pearson STC for the 220 HP Franklin.
Anyway, it was impressive. I see the rated RPM is 2800, instead of 2700 for a Lycoming, or 2600 for a Continental O-470.
Also, the idle seems a little high, 750 - 900 RPM. My recollection is that this engine has a fairly high compression ratio, and the cam has fairly long duration? It idled rough and sounded like a big cam. When the throttle was advanced, it cleared like a big cam high compression engine, and it ran very well. I thought it odd for such a spirited engine to be in a Stinson 108, which is so mild mannered.
I think it would serve well in an RV-8. Several have been built, perhaps their owners will chime in here and let us know?
 
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I would love to see an RV with a Franklin. Maybe a alternative for the RV-14?

I always thought they were good engines, I mean they used to put them in helicopters. Can't say the same about a Continental.:D
 
Snowflake said:
If I recall clearly the Franklin uses a bed mount like a Merlin, as opposed to a conical/dynafocal/etc. that mounts just to the back of the engine like a Lycoming. The bed may need to be a significantly beefier mount than a standard O-320/360 mount, especially if you factor in the need for aerobatic loads.

Is anyone flying a Franklin and doing aerobatics? Curious how it performs relative to a Lycoming.
Click to expand...

Most Continentals use a bed mount, as well. No big deal. You're just not going to get one ready to bolt on from Vans.
 
soon maybe..

Website says Q1 2013 for certified engines..no info on fuel injected experimental. Hoping for great things. Russ
 
Where did he get the motor mount on the RV8 in the photo, and does it require a redo of the firewall connecting plates on the RV8? A good friend has a Franklin engine, 220 hp and a CS prop that was going on and RV project, however, the builder backed away. The engine is ready to be assembled. This guy knows what he is doing on Franklin engines. He would be willing to sell it for the right price. Thanks.

Jim Fogarty
 
Franklin engine - opinion from Poland

Hello to All,

I'm very new on this forum. At the moment I fly Jabiru J430, but some time ago I bought QB RV 7A kit. I'm located in Poland so I have quite good knowledge regarding Franklin engines.

Below please find some information which can be useful for you:
- 6 cylinder Franklin engine can be prepared for Mogas but this version is not certified and 180hp,
- 180hp version can be used with electronic ignition and fuel injection (you can get such engine including these installations directly from factory - for sure in Poland, don't know if it is offered by USA dealer),
- obviously our RV7A will fly with Franklin, this summer we plane to prepare engine mount which in fact is already designed for VANS aircraft and ready to produce,

best regards
from Poland
Witek
 
What is the cost and availability here in the states? What we really need here in the states is a lower priced engine. I don't know if Franklin is that solution.

Bird
 
Welcome to VAF!

witek said:
Hello to All, I'm very new on this forum.


best regards
from Poland
Witek
Click to expand...

Witek, welcome to the good ship VAF:D

It is good to have you here, please keep us informed about your build.

I flew a Franklin powered Stinson for almost 20 years, loved it.
 
Sure!

zilik said:
If my memory is correct Van's stuck a Franklin on the front of an RV-8 several years ago. I do not remember any of the specifics. I think the 8 was dubbed "Fraklestien"

I'm sure someone else will remember more and chime in.
Click to expand...

Yes it is the old blue, I think was #1 that got converted to a Fraklestien from a Lycon that was on it to begin with. You can put what you want as you already know and it is fun to do it the way you like. I also remember that my airframe is rated to take up to 200 Bhp. I know every body like more hour power. "Sort story", I have had a lot of friends that liked having 150 Hp. engines on their boats that were rated for 80 Hp. It was a lot of fun till the transums started cracking out and had to be reinforced or rebuilt.
I like the Franklin engine and have work on a number of them down through the years. It is a lot of extra work to modify things to make a none standard engine fit with out factory support, but it is good to have some options and a little competition out there if it can be done in a safe way.
Yours, R.E.A. III #80888
 
I too am a fan of the 220, having flown behind one in a Great Lakes.

A friend has one in his Purple RV-8, which is for sale. (He doesn't need an -8, -12, and a -14, which is almost finished.)
 
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