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3rd Gen Panel Overhaul for N159SB

Brantel

Brantel

Well Known Member
Been working on my 3rd generation panel overhaul for my plane.

There are a few goals for this panel upgrade:

1. Get rid of the evidence of the past upgrades
2. Get rid of the map box that I never use
3. Turn this panel into a true IFR ready panel by providing redundancy, all critical equipment will have a battery backup
4. Equip the plane to be in compliance with the ADS-B out rules and to take advantage of the free weather and traffic with ADS-B in
5. Get an EFIS/MFD that supports charts and plates
6. Utilize as much of what I have as possible to save the bank
7. Move to a VP-X system of controlling power and overcurrent protection
8. Provide a place to put the knob for a future CS prop upgrade
9. Add an audio panel
10. Enjoy the process of putting it all together

This upgrade is slated for early Summer of 2013. I will do as much of the panel fab as possible prior to that time frame but the majority of the conversion will happen around that time. I want to limit the amount of airplane downtime.

OLD PANEL:
BIG PIC HERE

dpvdi1.jpg


Staying will be the:

430W
A210
G327
ELT
Stein Vents
Flap and Trim Switches
Dimmer controls
Annunciator Lights

Going will be the:

D100
D120
HS34
AP74
Zaon XRX
PM3000 Intercom
Aera 510

New Items Going In:
3 screen G3X System
TT Gemini PFD
GX Pilot AP
Mag/Start Key Switch
New affordable remote mount Garmin ADS-B UAT Transceiver (Garmin has hinted on here about it)
VP-X

Click pic for big version.



The way I see it this new panel will provide me what I set out to accomplish....the reason for the wait is #1 financial and #2 I want to give Garmin time to get the ADS-B solution out there as well as TT on the Gemini PFD.

Thoughts/Suggestions?
 
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If I were buying Avionics today, my panel would look very close to your plan.

Looks nice.

What software are you using for panel planning?
 
Why not keep the existing intercom, build yourself (if you haven't already) a switch panel, and save the money that a new audio panel would cost?
 
BobTurner said:
Why not keep the existing intercom, build yourself (if you haven't already) a switch panel, and save the money that a new audio panel would cost?
Click to expand...

You know, I struggle with this question as well.

I guess for me it is only about a couple things:

1. Resell value since people expect an audio panel in an IFR bird (at this point I can never envision selling)
2. People always asking: Where is your audio panel...when they scope out the panel.
3. It makes the stack look more normal but what is normal?
4. I have to turn the volume knob up and down on the radio I don't want to listen to but this is really no big deal.

You are right, I already have most of the functionality that an audio panel brings to the table. I have an intercom, TX select switch, music inputs, all of my EFIS, GPS etc. connected so it is not like I am giving much up without one....

It does seem however that the full blown audio panels have more filtering and better sounding intercoms.
 
Dang thats sweet... you guys are going to make have to get a real job if you keep posting pictures like that :eek:
 
Brantel said:
You know, I struggle .....(at this point I can never envision selling)....
Click to expand...

;) seems like it wasn't too long ago that you struggled to keep it and get it flying. New job and New RV changed your world.

nice panel Brian.

and I will always be careful for the help on mine.
 
BobTurner said:
Why not keep the existing intercom, build yourself (if you haven't already) a switch panel, and save the money that a new audio panel would cost?
Click to expand...

When I added a second radio, the Pacific Engineering "stereo" audio panel with auto-squelch, was one of the better panel items I bought. Works perfect for switching comms, piping XM radio & I-pod. A switch on the stick grip switches the radios.

edit: Another option I like is the muting options, when playing music & listening to ATC, etc. I suppose something could be rigged up by hand..........I just don't care to.
The auto-squelch always works perfectly. No adjusting knobs to get rid of static.......ever.
 
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hydroguy2 said:
;) seems like it wasn't too long ago that you struggled to keep it and get it flying. New job and New RV changed your world.

nice panel Brian.

and I will always be careful for the help on mine.
Click to expand...

Yes, putting beans In a can for Duke has changed my life. I can now at least keep up with life as I know it today. Not to say I have it made because I know it can all change in a heartbeat. I thank God on a daily basis for giving me this job and an airplane. It is the gravy on top of my great wife and kids.

I look at my 401K performance and then I look at the airplane and currently I think I am better off putting my money into the airplane and as long as it is put in the right place, I think I will come out ahead or break even in the long run and get to have a ton of fun along the way!

I ran across your panel files when I was working on this and thought about you and your plane. It is amazing how time flys by. It just seems like yesterday that we were working on your panel design and now you are blasting all over the place and having a ball.
 
Very nice.

Suggestions? Personal probably, but I would put the elevator trim on the stick for sure and carb heat where you show the trim switch.
 
gnuse said:
Very nice.

Suggestions? Personal probably, but I would put the elevator trim on the stick for sure and carb heat where you show the trim switch.
Click to expand...

Thanks it is always good to hear other what other folks would do, One good thing about having flown this current panel for two years now, I know what I like and don't like about the original design.

I have not used the carb heat once since I have been flying so that is pretty low on my pilot priority list so I don't mind it being over on the right side. Originally I thought I would be using it and thats why I put it in the middle of the original controls. Reality is that with an RV, Lycoming and the induction setup that I have, it just does not get used often if at all.

On the stick switches, I made a decision early in the build to not put all sorts of buttons on my sticks. The only one I have is the PTT switch. I just did not want to add all that complexity and points of failure to the plane. I have really liked having the trim and flap switches right next to the throttle in my existing setup. When I use these switches, my hand is always on the throttle anyway and I can activate them without even looking. I just rotate a thumb or finger over and hit the switches. I put in different look and feel switches on purpose to make it easy to activate without looking. I am afraid that if I had a bunch of switches on the stick, that it would not be so intuative. The reason being is that I almost never fly with my hand up on the top of the stick or grip. I almost always fly with just my index finger and thumb gripping the bottom of the foam grip or lower. I have to move my hand to get to the PTT button but it is the only one up there so it is easy to know what to push.

Sorry for my rambling....thanks though for the thoughts!
 
That's really nice! I'm going to save a copy of that panel for my planning purposes! I hope to be at the avionics stage by next spring, and I too am looking for the Garmin ADS-B UAT for the G3X. And maybe they will have those nice rebates again next year for us (hint, hint)!:D

The Garmin guys at Sun 'N Fun this year kept saying to stand by and they think we will be pleased with what is coming in the near future (as I asked them about displaying ADS-B wx on the G3X, etc.). Sounds promising...:)

Are you listening, Matt?!
 
"people expect". "people ask"
These are poor reasons. The great beauty of a homebuilt is that you can do what YOU want! I've flown behind a PS 8000 audio panel and it's a great unit, but it didn't do what I really wanted, so I built my own and couldn't be happier. Make it your panel, not what you think others think it should look like.
 
Very nice Brian, very close to a dream panel for me. My first one will probably be only one screen. Am I correct in assuming all the info supplied from the VP-X comes thru the G3X so no panel space needed for the VP-X?
 
Pretty much da bomb Brian! I'm not sure you could get a much more eye pleasing and functional layout to all the boxes...really, really nice!

Since you axed ;), I do have a couple thoughts on the switch and control row. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy with manual flaps and trim (the way it came) and I also lean towards not over-HOTASing. I also look at switchology from an ergonomic and cockpit flow perspective (which I can tell you do as well). Here's what I'd do if I was doin' it for me (all totally FWIW):

1. I saw your reply on the stick trim, but I'd do that one (cooley hat on a Tosten CS-8 maybe). The only switches I'd put on that CS-8 would be PTT, AP Disc and the trim...KISS. I cut my stick so my CS-4 falls right in my hand (I noted your comment on that...just a thought). This allows a couple other moves:

2. Group the switches and add a little space between groups.
-- Keep ELEC IGNT and AV MSTR in place.
-- Move the BOOST PUMP to the far right, where the spare is, and jettison the spare).
-- Leave a space where the BOOST PUMP sw was.
-- Group your 4 light switches together, as you have currently, except:
-- Order them NAV, STROBE, TAXI, LANDING, (for a TO/LND flow)
-- Move the PITOT HT sw over by the Carb Heat knob (they sort of go together, functionally). To do that, move the flap, TH, PR, MX knobs slightly left (moving the trim allows this) so the Pitot Ht switch fits well next to the carb heat.
-- Leave a second space where the Pitot Heat sw was.
-- Use a flat toggle for the flap switch (shaped like a flap for recognition).

3. Add a third LED annunciator up with the other two: PITOT HT ON (unless its annunciated on the EFIS somewhere).

With a little finagling, you could get the spacing to look good, and the groups make for nice flows (before TO or LND, Left to Right...Lights on, Boost Pump on, Throttle in. Icing conditions ahead, Pitot Heat on, Carb Heat on...etc).

Just some thoughts. Did much the same with mine, why I lean that way. I just like the groups better than a long line of switches, so my pea-brain can find stuff more easily. Mine is starting to look old-school, eh! (I hear my wife saying, "Don't even think about it!") :rolleyes:

panel%2520left.jpg


No matter what you do with the switches, your new panel will be awesome, and a pleasure to fly behind! Have fun!

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Yep, the G3X is the interface to the VP-X. With the exception of the switches, it is all in there.

Joe Parish said:
Very nice Brian, very close to a dream panel for me. My first one will probably be only one screen. Am I correct in assuming all the info supplied from the VP-X comes thru the G3X so no panel space needed for the VP-X?
Click to expand...
 
rvmills said:
Just some thoughts......No matter what you do with the switches, your new panel will be awesome, and a pleasure to fly behind! Have fun!

Cheers,
Bob
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob, and you must have read my mind. I have been working on the switchology some more and have already implemented some of your thoughts as well.

Thanks for the input...I am gonna have to ponder the stick buttons though....
 
Worked on this some more over the weekend to tweak it a bit.

It is really starting to get tuned in now.

Click pic for big version.

 
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Brantel said:
I would but my fat butt won't fit under there if I do.....:(
Click to expand...

Don't put your fat butt under the panel!

It is tight but I found my real issue is the 2" sub-panel I have and not the TQ. Still, I wouldn't give up either!

I'm thrilled to have my panel upgrade finished!
 
Brantel said:
Worked on this some more over the weekend to tweak it a bit.

It is really starting to get tuned in now.

Click pic for big version.

Click to expand...

Nice! I really like the groupings. Fuel and Ignition makes a nice flow to the starter (before start), followed by Av Master (after start), and the lights make a nice group too. Gonna be a nice panel!

N941WR said:
That looks great Brian!

Why not install one of Dayton's TQ's and dump the Cessna knobs? :cool:
Click to expand...

Now I'm not Brian of course...but here's a thought. Just been flying Dayton's quad on a friend's Rocket, and its a nice unit, no question. It feels nice tucked in the side panel of a Rocket or an 8. My only issue with it is during leaning...not nearly as precise as a vernier mixture. Smokey Shreck fixed that in his 8 with a 2 lever quad and a vernier mixture. Brilliant, but it would kinda look funny in a SBS that way.

Seems like a quad takes up too much room in a SBS, and doesn't fall to hand quite as nice as it does in a tandem. I know a lot of folks have it, and Dayton's a great dude, so not trying to send away biz from him...just a personal pref on my part. And I do like getting under the panel more easily! (Easily being a very relative term!) ;)

So ditch the Cessna-like knobs for Piper-like knobs? Hmmmm...(now I'm teasing ya! :p)

Cheers,
Bob

Brian, when ya gonna start cuttin' metal? :D
 
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rvmills said:
Seems like a quad takes up too much room in a SBS, and doesn't fall to hand quite as nice as it does in a tandem. ......
Cheers,
Bob :D
Click to expand...

What? someone should have told me.....OH wait they did. :D

I caught a lot of flak for putting a left side quadrant in my SBS. After 125hrs, I wouldn't do it any different. And working under the panel is piece of cake even for a husky fella.
 
Really nice Brian...

If you are like many who have stuff dangling from the master key, like fuel cap tool or other keys or a key ring it might bother your legs underneath. Just a thought. Nice panel, well thought out.
 
Brian,

The audio panel functions fine... I don't use all it's capabilities though, just for switching between comms for transmitting and listening to two frequencies at the same time... the way my system is wired, I am not able to isolate my incoming air traffic audio from the passenger while my passenger listens to the XM audio (music etc). I think it may have something to do with how the G3X audio functions are interfaced to the audio panel. the G3X seems to have many audio input/output capabilities.

What specifically can I answer for you?

Victor
 
Brian,

Generally speaking, I have always been happy with PS Engineering products. This relatively new unit (PMA 5000EX) was cost effective and had the functions that I needed. The new PAR 100EX was not available at the time we did my upgrade and i might have chosen that unit and eliminated the Garmin SL40 from my panel. I like the second comm that you chose, I might have chosen that one instead of the SL40.

In addition... I have the Garmin 420W (no VOR) not the 430W, so I have no need for the marker beacon receiver that comes with the PMA 7000H... Hence the reason for not choosing most of the other PS Engineering products that have marker beacon receivers. When it came to choosing a PS Engineering audio panel, I did not have much to choose from. With no VOR capability (NO ILS, etc...) I only do GPS approaches, and I love it!

Victor
 
Of course, if you have a functioning 420 or 430 you don't need a marker beacon receiver to do an ILS approach. You can identify the fix with the GPS. (I have an SL30 and 420 but no MB, and I do ILS approaches just fine.)
 
hydroguy2 said:
What? someone should have told me.....OH wait they did. :D

I caught a lot of flak for putting a left side quadrant in my SBS. After 125hrs, I wouldn't do it any different. And working under the panel is piece of cake even for a husky fella.
Click to expand...

Brian (T), I meant a quad in the middle on a SBS, and no flak intended at all. This is just a fun discussion about prefs, etc. I'd like to take a look at Aurora's panel and that left side quad next time we are in a race togehter!

Having fun reading all about the different gear in the discussion. Seems I always learn a lot in Brantel's threads!

I used to whine about losing the ADF...for its ability to get sports scores. ;) Now of course, there's XM!

Cheers,
Bob
 
rvmills said:
Brian (T), I meant a quad in the middle on a SBS, and no flak intended at all. This is just a fun discussion about prefs, etc. I'd like to take a look at Aurora's panel and that left side quad next time we are in a race togehter!....
Click to expand...

No problem Bob, I wasn't pointing any fingers. Just expressing that we all have ideas and what we like or don't like. I haven't heard anyone say anything since I got flying. But during the build, several thought it was a bad idea and resale would suffer. Also no CFI will give a BFR in a plane with no dual controls etc.

Brian (Brantel) helped me a bunch laying out my simple panel. He knows his way around the CAD program. After we emailed a few times, I took the layout he sent me to a print shop and $20 later I had a full scale exact replica of my current panel....down to the screw holes. Stared at that layout for 6 months. I may have to have him help me again.

thread hijack: Bob, are you gonna make BSAR 2012?
 
hydroguy2 said:
thread hijack: Bob, are you gonna make BSAR 2012?
Click to expand...

Sure hope to! :) Gotta see that panel and that quad. I've seen others do that left quad mod too...all good IMHO...either side works for me...flying is the only place I'm ambidextrious...you should see me play the piano or drums...not pretty!)

Brian (C), to get back OT ;), I was going to ask you, just FMI...with the extended panel, is there no room for a throttle bracket? I'm guessing not, as I have to snake under mine to go inverted under the panel. Just wunderin'

Cheers,
Bob
 
G3X....No AOA solution....

One of the things that bothers me about my new panel upgrade plan is the lack of an AOA indicator since the G3X does not support AOA. I have grown fond of having AOA from my existing panel setup.

I really don't like the thoughts of having to put in an AFS AOA Pro unit to get me this information. It is expensive and does not have a good solution for glare shield mounting of the display. (it is too large and must be installed vertical).

For me, this would be the only thing that my new upgraded panel would be missing.

Garmin guys, any chance we will see any sort of AOA solution for the G3X in the future?

I would sure love to be able to reuse my remote AOA display that I built to parse the AOA data from an EFIS serial data stream. It it fits perfectly on top of the glare shield and does not block the sight line during landing.
 
Using that pressure sensor, I could build an Arduino based AOA computer that could be built to send the AOA variable to the G3X if Garmin will support it.

Or it could just drive my Remote AOA display that I have already developed. I think I will order one and start playing around with it.

Thanks!
 
Brantel said:
One of the things that bothers me about my new panel upgrade plan is the lack of an AOA indicator since the G3X does not support AOA. I have grown fond of having AOA from my existing panel setup.

I really don't like the thoughts of having to put in an AFS AOA Pro unit to get me this information. It is expensive and does not have a good solution for glare shield mounting of the display. (it is too large and must be installed vertical).

For me, this would be the only thing that my new upgraded panel would be missing.

Garmin guys, any chance we will see any sort of AOA solution for the G3X in the future?

I would sure love to be able to reuse my remote AOA display that I built to parse the AOA data from an EFIS serial data stream. It it fits perfectly on top of the glare shield and does not block the sight line during landing.
Click to expand...

Brian,

FYI... My original panel had the Dynon D10-A, and (when doing my panel upgrade) the main reason that I carefully chose to keep the Dynon D10-A on my panel for backup is because it has AOA built in... Which I use on every flight!!!

TruTrak's Gemini looks like a good product... Were you not aware of this Dynon D10-A feature?

Victor
 
Yea but the Gemini is so compact...

I may still go that route just to keep AOA.

Decisions decisions decisions....
 
Brantel said:
Yea but the Gemini is so compact...

I may still go that route just to keep AOA.

Decisions decisions decisions....
Click to expand...


Brian,

One thing to consider is that the Gemini display is small (compact), which is a good thing, however, since you obviously intend to use it primarily as a backup EFIS, consider how usable the Gemini will be in IMC as a primary device if the G3Xs go dark... I wish the Dynon were more compact, yet I like the fact that not only is the Dynon a good backup EFIS for IMC, but I use it every flight as an AOA... I like having a good use for all of the stuff on my panel.

Just my thoughts and experience to date.

Victor
 
Brantel said:
Using that pressure sensor, I could build an Arduino based AOA computer that could be built to send the AOA variable to the G3X if Garmin will support it.

Or it could just drive my Remote AOA display that I have already developed. I think I will order one and start playing around with it.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I was hoping that you might find this intriguing. I am coming around to the feeling that the angle of attack display really needs to be on the top of the glare shield; right in your field of view when you are landing.
 
Nice!!!!

Hi Brian,

Looks great. A couple of things to possibly think about. You are obviously modernizing. 3 screens seem like a little overkill.

Why not go 2 screens and get rid of the 430 (discontinued anyway) for a GTN 750? This way you could remote mount your audio panel and transponder. It would simplify the overall panel look and give you the newest stuff.

Yeah it's more money but after selling the 430 and the audio panel you'd offset the costs. This will help avoid a version 4 panel in a few years.

I went through this with my new 7 and dual screen AFS 5500's. Was going to install a 430 that I had purchased, audio panel. Stein talked me into the 750 and remote audio panel. Glad I did it. Now it will all be the latest and greatest (At least till Oshkosh) My thought is that I'm not doing this again so getting ideal was a goal even if it is a few K more.

Good luck. Great work.
 
Darwin,

Here is a cost breakdown of why I won't be going the most modern route:

Most modern way:

GTN750 - ~$14,000
GMA35 - ~$2,900
GTX327 - ~$0.00 already have and would remote mount
Sub Total = ~$16,900

Credit for sale of 430W = (~$5,500)
Total = ~$11,400
_____________________________________________


Plan in original posting:

PSE Audio Panel = ~$895
3rd G3X Screen = ~$2,575
Total = ~$3,470



Note: the above comparison only includes items that would be swapped out. The propsal to go with a 750 and remote AP would cost around $8K more after the 430W was sold and the co-pilot loses their screen....

I just don't have that kind of extra coin laying around. I really don't think the 430W is going away anytime soon either. Even after they stop selling it, support will go on for many years.
 
Yep

More money for sure. My neighbor put in a 650 in his 7 and is quite happy with that. Just slightly more than 430. MUCH easier to use.

I have a 430 in my plane and we have them in the helicopters I fly at work. PITA for many functions.

I just get nervous about discontinued stuff!!!

Again, good luck. Heck you may have a whole new design after Oshkosh!!!


Brantel said:
Darwin,

Here is a cost breakdown of why I won't be going the most modern route:

Most modern way:

GTN750 - ~$14,000
GMA35 - ~$2,900
GTX327 - ~$0.00 already have and would remote mount
Sub Total = ~$16,900

Credit for sale of 430W = (~$5,500)
Total = ~$11,400
_____________________________________________


Plan in original posting:

PSE Audio Panel = ~$895
3rd G3X Screen = ~$2,575
Total = ~$3,470



Note: the above comparison only includes items that would be swapped out. The propsal to go with a 750 and remote AP would cost around $8K more after the 430W was sold and the co-pilot loses their screen....

I just don't have that kind of extra coin laying around. I really don't think the 430W is going away anytime soon either. Even after they stop selling it, support will go on for many years.
Click to expand...
 
Wow!

You may already have one but I would consider the little B&C backup alternator for a panel like that. I had/got to use mine this weekend and it worked great. Powered everything except the lights and got me home with very little worry as I knew both batteries were charged all the way.

Looks great!
 
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