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LSA Choices - why the RV-12?

A

AeroBuilders

Member
I am curious what RV-12 builders/buyers would say as their prime reasons for selecting the RV-12 over the following competitors;

Zenith CH 650 B

Rans S-19


Thanks for any input offered....I would like to hear your opinions!
 
Useful load and speed of building were two of my main reasons, nobody else came very close even back then.
 
Peer-level support was a big deciding factor. This forum is an example, but just the raw numbers of RV-12s sold vs. any other E-LSA kit would have dictated that you'd be able to find other builders pretty easily.

I also hoped that handling would be similar to my RV-6. As it turns out, it's actually better.
 
My thoughts - -

1. Zenith is MUCH harder to get in and out of.
2. Zenith with 6 cyl. Jab is not as fast ( A friend and I tried them out )
3. S-19 cost more with similar equip.
4. S-19 less useful load.
5. S-19 takes MUCH longer to build.
6. Visibility is best in the RV-12.

Get in and out of all of them. Get a ride if possible. The RV-12 is not perfect, but seems to be the best of this group.

John Bender
310.4 hours.
 
I took a test ride in a Zenith a few years ago at the factory - very nice. Looked like a pretty good kit. Then their "troubles" started. It may be totally unjustified, but I believe the reputation of the plane is irreparably damaged now. Resale is an issue.

The build experience and quality of the kit has been amazing to me. 840 hours building and all I lack doing is the avionics package - otherwise I'm totally complete. (First time builder that TOOK HIS TIME!) I just did a 5 hour checkout in one (for insurance) and it flies just great with fantastic visibility.

The S19 is an attractive plane. Hundreds more hours of build time though and the factory support / parts inventory / etc. deserves your DETAILED scrutiny. You can fly hundreds of hours or build hundreds of hours. (That is another reason I built a -12 and not a Van's -7 or -8. Yes a -7 or -8 is faster, but you have 1000++ hours in your personal time bank to make up for that!)

Read Dave's blog at http://www.schmetterlingaviation.com for everything you need to know about building an RV-12 - and in a very entertaining fashion!
 
Excellent feedback everyone......some really great points. I did recently check out a brand new CH 650 B with the UL power and the plane was very nice but I can see there are many advantages for going the RV-12 route.
 
A GOOD look at the three aircraft will lead to the selection of the RV12. I did it a while back and for all of the aforementioned reasons and more it becomes obvious.
Dick Seiders 120093
 
AeroBuilders said:
I am curious what RV-12 builders/buyers would say as their prime reasons for selecting the RV-12 over the following competitors;

Zenith CH 650 B

Rans S-19


Thanks for any input offered....I would like to hear your opinions!
Click to expand...

Removable wings was the number one reason. Build time second. Randy himself told me at OSH this year that the S-19 would take 400 additional hours to build. Also, Vans was the only one to give me a demo ride at OSH.

Jerre
 
You are lucky, I have NEVER had a ride in an RV12. My first RV12 ride will probably be my first flight in my own.
 
My Decision to buy the RV-12

A few other thoughts. I did quite a bit of looking and test flying to make my choice and made the decision between the same planes you list. I visited the Zenith factory in Mexico MO and looked at the 650. I thought it looked cool and the folks at the factory were nice. It just wasn't for me once I saw it in person. I then saw the S-19 and RV-12 side by side at the LSA Expo this year in Sebring. I sat in both and committed to test flying each to decide.

I flew the RV-12 with Mitch out in the DC area and really enjoyed it. It flew very nicely and flew very similar to the Gobosh 700 I learned to fly in. Mitch is a really nice guy and he spent a great deal of time sitting around in his hangar after the flight talking about aspects of the build. I got a sample of the plans for the RV-12 build.

I travelled to Hays KS and toured RANS. I then flew the S-19 with Jana, their CFI. She was great and the plane flew very nicely. I really like the looks of the S-19. I met Randy and he was a very nice guy as well. I purchased the plans for the S-19.

I left both of these experiences with a tough choice but ultimately decided on a couple factors, useful load as expressed before is important to me. The second and more compelling part to me was ease of build. I am a first time builder. In looking at the plans from both I thought the Van's plans just looked easier for the first time builder. The RANS plans are nice but to me not as clear as Van's. I chose the Van's route and have completed the tail kit and the wing kit except flaperons. I have been working on it since April, mostly weekends.

I will tell you the funny part is that I actually own a RANS S-19 T-shirt I wear while building my RV-12 I really like the S-19 and eventually may build one of those after the -12.

I hope you enjoy your journey to a decision. I found a lot of good comments both here as well as on ransclan.com. I also really like the homebuilthelp DVD set. If you are seriously thinking about building the -12, order the first DVD set and give them a watch. They are step by step of building the kit.

Carl
 
Another aspect I have been thinking about is the resale values of these three aircraft. I would like to eventually build an RV-10, so if I decide to sell my first aircraft which of the three holds value best?

I have had my A&P since the 80's and I have extensive prior Airline Maintenance experience. The build time is an important factor to me and the RV-12 seems to have a definite advantage. I am looking to start a build project by the end of October and I am really getting excited as I work through some due diligence.....I think this "building" fun is going to get addicting!

I want to make sure I consider the completed aircraft valuation in the whole equation for my first kitplane project. The "sold aircraft" data sample is limited at this time so I guess time will tell.....but Vans aircraft have excellent reputations and that should help RV-12 values.

So....how important was completed aircraft valuation in your kitplane selection process? The feedback has been excellent and very helpful.....I look forward to additional comments!
 
First, I have NO experience with the Rans S-19, so I can't comment there. I do believe the RV-12 beats the 650 in almost all areas; design, performance, resale, and ease of build. I am supervising high school students building an RV-12 (average age 15,) and I KNOW the RV is very easy for the first time builder. Compare costs apples-to-apples and the RV looks pretty good, too. Perhaps the biggest reason to buy the 12 is right here, this website. Nothing out there like it!

Bob
 
For me resale value was simply not even considered. When and if I ever sell mine, it will bring what it will bring. Lots of variables will change in the next few years. Early RV12 builders often sold their plane for a good profit, we later builders will probably join the rest of the RV resale group, and you will be very lucky to get your cash outlay back, working free.
If the current proposal from AOPA and EAA to FAA to eliminate medicals for aircraft up to 180 hp is accepted, LSA will all take a serious beating as we and new buyers move up to the Cherokees and the like. My Ercoupe will return to essentially worthless status again. That is OK with me, I will roll with the flow. Obviously putting a Viking engine in mine and building EAB will probably reduce its value some, but by the same token I will have far less in it as well and virtually no competition from similar planes.
You don't do homebuilts expecting to make a profit from the exercise, better to buy a factory plane used, and ride with its market value, or a completed RV12. There are RV12s on the market now for less than they cost to build.
We build for the pride of building and flying our own creations, not for profit.
 
Right....seeing some RV-12's for sale in the 80K range does seem low to me, but the market is what it is and the possible rules changes ahead will have an impact.
 
videobobk said:
First, I have NO experience with the Rans S-19, so I can't comment there. I do believe the RV-12 beats the 650 in almost all areas; design, performance, resale, and ease of build. I am supervising high school students building an RV-12 (average age 15,) and I KNOW the RV is very easy for the first time builder. Compare costs apples-to-apples and the RV looks pretty good, too. Perhaps the biggest reason to buy the 12 is right here, this website. Nothing out there like it!

Bob
Click to expand...

Now that sounds like a blast......those are some very fortunate kids!
 
AeroBuilders said:
Another aspect I have been thinking about is the resale values of these three aircraft.
Click to expand...
This will obviously be very hard to predict since there are so many factors that go into the market price of any given airplane, but consider these:

- most RV-12s will be certified as E-LSAs. That means that the airplane was essentially built under contract from the manufacturer, and that it was built precisely to the plans. It also means (although this has not to my knowledge been tested in a court of law) that the liability stays with Van's. I asked Randy if there were any plans for Rans to go the E-LSA route and the answer was "Why would I want to do that?"

- while there will likely be an order of magnitude more RV-12s on the market, which should intuitively lower the market price in accordance with the classic supply vs. demand price curve, there is a lot to be said for the support and shared knowledge that comes from having so many of the type in existence. That may command a premium at resale.

- this will take time (if it ever happens at all), but it is a time-tested principle that people "move up" in the brand they started in. It is possible that those looking to "graduate" to a more powerful RV (say, an RV-10) would be attracted to an RV-12 as an entry point in the Van's line-up.

- Van's is a more recognized brand name.

- Buying an RV automatically admits the buyer to a really, really big and active type club.

- Parts are readily available through a web store. With pre-drilled holes, most replacement parts should fit right off the shelf.
 
Why did I pick the RV-12:
Requirements:
E-LSA Compliant
Large useful load with full fuel
Reasonable sized cabin
?Complete Kit,? engine,radios,interior

Nice to have:
Unscientific, But I really like the way it looks
Removable wings
Tricycle gear
West Coast based manufacturer

Things I?ve found out so far:
Very high quality parts, beautifully manufactured, everything generally fits
Kits are packaged well and arrive without damage
Low cost replacement parts are generally in stock
Excellent support both from this forum and from the factory

Good luck with your desision
 
True words from Don - but even with <180Hp=No Medical, you still have the annual inspection issue, the hassle of most work needing an A&P, and significant restrictions and big roadblocks on modifications. (Put a Skyview in a Cherokee 140? Imagine the cost and paperwork!) And you can't take a weekend course and have inspection authority. Don, as an A&P, doesn't encounter these issues like us non-A&Ps! I think this is an as-big-or-bigger factor than the medical issue.
 
Excellent points Dave, especially he liability one which I had not seen discussed previously.
The ELSA thing is a double edged sword really, since it is still Experimental and most get modifications after certification anyway, will buyers realize that difference? I suspect they will not, and still flock to heavily modified ELSA rather than the slightly or non modified EAB.
 
Oh, and one BIG BIG thing not mentioned:
OVER 7400 RVs COMPLETED AND FLYING
OVER 550 RV-12 KITS SOLD
This was very, very, very important in my decision making. It says a LOT in many ways.
 
Dgamble said:
- most RV-12s will be certified as E-LSAs. That means that the airplane was essentially built under contract from the manufacturer, and that it was built precisely to the plans. It also means (although this has not to my knowledge been tested in a court of law) that the liability stays with Van's.
Click to expand...

Interestingly, in Australia, CASA (the equivalent of your FAA) doesn't accept the argument that Vans is the builder of the E-LSA. As far as they are concerned, the builder is the builder and it's his/her name that goes on the data plate, not Vans Aircraft.
 
rgmwa said:
Interestingly, in Australia, CASA (the equivalent of your FAA) doesn't accept the argument that Vans is the builder of the E-LSA. As far as they are concerned, the builder is the builder and it's his/her name that goes on the data plate, not Vans Aircraft.
Click to expand...
My honest opinion is that the Australian way makes more sense, really, from a manufacturer's point of view. I got the feeling that Randy (from RANS) was asking "Why would I take on the liability for a construction I didn't do?"
 
I forgot that myself, and it was a MAJOR factor for me. Many kits sold and none flying after a few years says lots about support and complexity of build.

Bill_H said:
Oh, and one BIG BIG thing not mentioned:
OVER 7400 RVs COMPLETED AND FLYING
OVER 550 RV-12 KITS SOLD
This was very, very, very important in my decision making. It says a LOT in many ways.
Click to expand...
 
Visibility from the cockpit

One word - visibility.

I seriously considered a Sonex, and had a ride in it as a passenger a while ago. The visibility from the cockpit was disappointing. I am willing to pay 20-30k more (depends on Sonex engine choice) for RV-12 for a much better visibility alone, not mentioning the build ease/time advantage.
The CH650 and S-19 are out of question. The visibility is almost as bad as it is from Sonex, and the price is as bad as RV's.
 
dick seiders said:
I just enjoyed flying a couple hours in my 12 today. What a fantastic airplane!
Dick Seiders
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Dave12 said:
You guys that are still building have something very special awaiting you!
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su27sushka said:
One word - visibility.

I seriously considered a Sonex, and had a ride in it as a passenger a while ago. The visibility from the cockpit was disappointing. I am willing to pay 20-30k more (depends on Sonex engine choice) for RV-12 for a much better visibility alone, not mentioning the build ease/time advantage.
The CH650 and S-19 are out of question. The visibility is almost as bad as it is from Sonex, and the price is as bad as RV's.
Click to expand...

Seriously. The RV-12 is all RV, easy / fast to build, and extremely fun / inexpensive to fly.

230 hours and counting.
 
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