Ryton Sump on IO-360-A1B6 and variants

I thought I would share this with everyone.
I am building a RV-7A and had purchased a IO-360-C1E6, which is an angle valve 200hp model but with a different style sump than the A1B6. The C1E6 sump protrudes rearward and will not fit in the engine mount provided by Vans. Pricing of a used sump and intake pipes off a A1B6 is outrages, if you can find them, they are becoming rare. I looked into the ryton sump from superior but was informed that it had not been tested and was not available at this time for the A1B6 angle valve engine. Upon further investigation, the casing is the same for all 360 models. I went ahead and purchased the ryton sump kit, what a good looking piece!!! The kit is complete with all nut, bolts, washers, oil quick drain, fuel drain, gaskets, intake pipes and intake gaskets. I installed the sump and it went on perfectly, no alignment issues at all. Then I installed the intake pipes.........not what i wanted to see.....the vertical alignment of the pipes is 1/4 inch out of alignment with the pipe coming out of the sump. The angle valve cylinder is larger in diameter which causes the intake port to be positioned 1/4 inch lower. I looked at reworking the intake pipe, which would involve reducing the lenght at the flanged end of the pipe by 1/4 inch and redoing the flare. I thought about cut and weld but did not want to interupt the flow inside the pipe at all. More investigation reveals the XP400 will have a ryton sump offering later this summer and will have intake pipes for the angle valve. Problem solved, wait for the new pipes to come available and get on with the building. I also though what about my exhaust, will it still fit the new configuration????? I hung the exhaust and no interferencr problems at all, whew, that was nice to see.
Now, before I installed anything I wantede to know about weight difference. I loaded all parts of the new and old sump, including nuts, bolts washers, clamps....everything relevant, and weighed them on a certified scale, the Ryton sump configuation is 4.13 pounds lighter than the old sump, lighter is better right.
I also looked at the inside of the sumps, the Ryton is smooth and flows very nice, the Lycoming sump was not flowing and had the surface texture of a highway.
So, all in all, the switch to the new sump was interesting but well worth the time spent investigating the probability. This is a high quality kit and is cheaper than buying a used Lyc. part and wayyyyyy cheaper than buying a new Lyc sump and intake pipes, new Lyc. intake pipes are $1100 each!!!
I hope this answers some thoughts other peolpe may have had regarding this issue.
Gary

I've researched this as well. The C series sumps can be converted to forward horizontal servo mounting. They CAN be used on conventional gear RVs but not on the A model (trikes) RVs. The rear of the sump fouls the A series motor mount.
I've managed to find a set of IO-360-A1A intake tubes for my 8A project. Now I just have to find a sump!
Charlie

Gary,
If you look hard, you can find IO-360-Axx sump with intake tubes for about $1000 used. A fellow at Sun N' Fun had one. Check with folks who buy wrecked Mooneys.
What did the Ryton sump kit cost?
Charlie

-C model sump will fit taildraggers

I bought a used IO-360A1A that was originally on a Mooney. It had been converted to a -C model sump by the previous owner and installed on a Velocity. I bought the engine after the Velocity had a "landing mishap." I had a local machinist make a cover plate for the rear facing opening and machine open the forward facing pad. I had friend machine an adaptor to fit the forward facing pad and the Bendix fuel injector.

I later realized that this put the fuel injector body off the centerline of the crankcase... which means that Van's intake snorkel no longer fits. After briefly trying to cut and scab back together the snorkel, I finally had a local fiberglass guru make me a totally new one. Turned out great.

Short story: I wish I could have just bought the right engine but everything turned out great.... and the -C model sump does fit the RV-8 mount.

Karl

As far as I know, you won't find a Lycoming forward-facing sump with the intake port centered on the engine. They'll all be slightly to the left. Lycoming told me that this was to accommodate earlier, larger alternators.

I'm not sure I'm following this thread correctly. Can you get a ryton pump for an 0360 A1A (vertical induction?). I thought the ryton sump only worked with horizontal induction...

Chuck

chuck said:

I'm not sure I'm following this thread correctly. Can you get a ryton pump for an 0360 A1A (vertical induction?). I thought the ryton sump only worked with horizontal induction...

Chuck

Click to expand...

The sump is what makes an engine vertical or horizontal induction. An IO-360 B1B is a plain ol' O-360 (vertical induction) that is fitted with a Bendix fuel injection bolted to the bottom (vertical). The IO-360A and C engines have different sumps that has the fuel injection throttle body bolted to the front or back, therefore creating a horizontal induction.

Clear as mud?

Karl

sump

The sump I had was rear facing, it was modified with an adapter plate to make it forward facing by aerosport. It is available along with the intake pipes if anyone wants to buy it for a tailwheel installation. I am very please at how it will turn out. lighter and looks great.
Gary

Dan wins a PRIZE!

dan said:

As far as I know, you won't find a Lycoming forward-facing sump with the intake port cenetered on the engine. They'll all be slightly to the left. Lycoming told me that this was to accommodate earlier, larger alternators.

Click to expand...

Ditto. We discovered this while trying to fit that #@%$ Sam James Cowl!

The Ryton sump explodes!

I've lost the link to the pics, but you should be aware the Ryton sump does not like wasted spark electronic ignitions. Serveral of the engine builders have had engines literally blow their sumps apart on the test stand!

rwtrwtau said:

I've lost the link to the pics, but you should be aware the Ryton sump does not like wasted spark electronic ignitions. Serveral of the engine builders have had engines literally blow their sumps apart on the test stand!

Click to expand...

There is a workaround for this available for E-mags, it delays the first spark after you start cranking for a set number of revolutions to suck any fuel vapour out of the inlet plenum. Don't know about the other EIs.

Aerosport also produce their own cast forward facing sump, lots cheaper than Lyc. There is also the Sky Dynamics sump & intake system - they may be able to make some intake pipes for an odd ball setup?

Pete

Breaking Sumps

The issue with wasted spark ignitions is documented via a SB on the Superior website. There are suggested "work arounds" that involve the installation of switches to delay powering up the ignitions after a few blades pass during the start cycle, but even these do not provide a sure fire solution to the risk. On this airfield alone, there have been 4 cases of the Ryton sumps breaking during a "backpuff" which occurs during the valve overlap period of startup. FWIW, I spoke to Superior and they did confirm to me that all cases of popped sumps occurred on taildragger models. There is something about the geometry going on there that changes the ability of fuel to evaporate quickly (or something similar). All the broken sumps on the field here have been taildraggers. It is obvious to me, as it should be to Superior that this issue is going to require a re-work of the design of the Ryton sump. Let me state here that if I knew what I know now before ordering my engine with the Ryton sump, I would not have put it on. IMHO, the risks outweigh the benefits.

Bob,
I think if you research with Superior now, you will find that the problem is not confined to tail dragger aircraft.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."

Thanks Mahlon,
I am glad there is more information, even if I don't like hearing it. I should not have thrown the taildragger part in. I would like to know how many of these things have failed. The dog I have in the fight is not taildragger vs trike issues, but the fact that I have a brand new high dollar engine installation that I'm really not comfortable with; Run Mode Start Delay,Dual power switches or not...there is a problem with the Ryton sump design if you have to redesign every other subsystem around it to see where the next failure mode will crop up. There, I said it.

RV8N said:

The sump is what makes an engine vertical or horizontal induction. An IO-360 B1B is a plain ol' O-360 (vertical induction) that is fitted with a Bendix fuel injection bolted to the bottom (vertical). The IO-360A and C engines have different sumps that has the fuel injection throttle body bolted to the front or back, therefore creating a horizontal induction.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the poor wording, I do realize that the sump is what makes an engine veritical or horizontal. I was under the impression that the ryton sump only came in a horizontal 'flavor'. Is that true?

Chuck

Ryton Sump

I've heard that Superior's new IO-400 is supposed to have the ryton sump. Does anyone know if that's true?

Another cracked sump

I joined the ranks of the cracked sump crowd today. Did a test run of my engine, no discernible backfire or problem starting...engine ran VERY smooth on the dual P-Mags

Post run inspection revealed a crack right above the induction tubes on the left side of the engine right on the joint where the air section is joined to the oil sump. The crack runs along the entire left side.

I'm done with the Ryton sump. I could not have confidence flying behind something so delicate. Of the Ryton sump equipped engines here on the field, 3 out of 4 have broken. Some have failed multiple times even with ignition delay workarounds in place. YMMV, but I am looking for the next best option...some sort of metal sump that will fit within the confines of my current exhaust system. Hopefully no one will lose their life before this gets re-designed.

Yep, I'm bummed. I thought I was done with the plane and now I'm going to have to re-engineer the fuel/induction system.

I'm curious as to the percieved advantage of making something as critical as a engine sump out of something so fragile (reletively). It's not like the technology doesn't exsist to make it out of aluminum (superior should be really good at this with their investment casting technology) just to save weight? Seems to me to be a bit iffy. I know guys with varieze's run composite sumps and stuff, I'm just not comfortable with that kinda stuff.

Why so many backfires

Do all the backfires just occur with P/E-mag equipped planes? I have had a
handful of kickback's but no backfires in over 20 years of flying, I recall, may
be one or two. Granted most of my time is with magneto ignition. Not that
cracked sumps are OK, but what is with all the backfires.

wasted spark: "A variation on this has each coil handle two plugs, on cylinders which are 360 degrees out of phase; in the four cycle engine this means that one plug will be sparking during the end of the exhaust stroke while the other fires at the usual time, a so-called "wasted spark" arrangement which has no drawbacks." From Wikipedia

The P/E-mag start timing is retarded? Wasted spark? The wasted spark
happens 360deg out of phase or TDC on the exhaust/intake stroke, which I
now can see may not be a good time for a wasted spark(?). I just wounder
why all the backfires now. Does anyone (any brand of EI) have issues with
backfires. I can see even with timing retarded the wasted spark can fire
some of the fuel air mixture early. I could be wrong. comments.

George

Ryton Sump

I believe I read that the RV-6 that went down in Death Valley had a composite sump installed. Can anyone confirm?

John

RV-9 QB

Ron Russell was based here. I can confirm that his plane, which suffered an engine failure at low altitude after takeoff from Death Valley, did have a Ryton sump. That sump was a replacement for one which had broken the previous week. He had dual Lightspeed ignitions in that plane. There is no word that the sump was or was not a contributor to the engine stoppage. He lost his life after the plane flipped over on landing.

Just to add some clarity, the problem with the Ryton sumps does not exist because of a "backfire"...what happens is any residual air/fuel mixture present in a sump (and the induction tubes) can ignite during the period of valve overlap (when both valves are open) when a wasted spark ignition is used. That flamefront travels backwards down the induction tubes and the pressure pulse breaks the sump. All the electronic ignitions have broken these sumps, P/E Mags, Lightspeeds, and Jeff Rose. The Lasar system is exempt from the service bulletin as it does not use wasted spark technology.

I could not say when mine broke yesterday. The engine was started several times. People were standing off to both sides of the engine, which was uncowled at the time, none of us heard a "backfire" or "backpuff".

It really is a backfire by definition, but it just may not be noticable from the outside for a plethera of reasons. One could be because it never gets far enough to come out of the induction (where one would hear it) but gets sucked back in too fast. Any time there is a flame front in the induction system, there is a backfire...

Important - Ryton sump follow-up

There was a message posted today on the RV List from an RV7 owner who had a failure of a Ryton sump while running dual Slick mags. Here's a snip from the post:

"we do have the Ryton composite sump. Superior tells us that ours was #
11 to break. We are running slick mags. Very frustrating. They do not have an

aluminum sump. If this happens in flight it will be bad news."

This is notable, as it's the first I've heard of a failure not associated with running electronic ignitions.

When I have more information on this failure, I'll post it here, but in the meantime, inspect those Ryton sumps every time you fly.

Sump Inspection

Bob,

How would one inspect an oil sump after engine start? Isn't this when it matters most?

John
RV-9 QB

Sump inspection?

How would one inspect an oil sump after engine start? Isn't this when it matters most?

Yes, you are correct. I posted the admonition to check your airplane because I cannot make anyone else's flying decisions for them. At the same time, I cannot in good conscience refrain from making suggestions that may affect safety of flight issues.

Speaking personally, my airplane shall remain grounded until I work through finding another sump/induction system because I choose not to fly behind a Ryton sump. Superior would provide another one if that's what I wanted to do. Once I get a cast aluminum sump, I'll have to re-work linkages, hoses and the air filtration system because the geometry is all different from what I already had installed. Your mileage may vary. I cannot make any decisions for you. Each of us will choose a slightly different approach to recognizing and managing risk.

If you do choose to fly with a Ryton sump, recognize the following:
1. They can fail during startup with no audible warning or symptom. You will probably not hear anything unusual, since it's not like a loud pop like a normal backfire. Several people standing right next to my plane heard no unusual sounds when mine failed.
2. The engine may continue to run fine at idle or run-up RPM. Mine did.
3. These sumps have failed with every type of electronic ignition, including those like P-Mags with "workarounds" and delay switches to avoid the wasted spark issue. (no Lasar's have failed yet to my knowledge, but read below)
4. They have failed in conventional non-electronic ignition sytems (read: magnetos)
5. The cracking can be very hard to spot unless you are looking very closely, especially if the sump is unpainted (flat black). The other failure mode of course, is a complete shattering of the lower (induction portion) of the sump.
6. IF your sump is cracked and it goes un-noticed, it is possible that it may break further given the stresses imposed on it by having the fuel servo mounted to it, along with normal g-forces associated with flight, and the fact that it's mounted to a shaky engine. Although there is no proof yet that this scenario has occurred, if it does occur in flight, very bad things would probably happen.

Excellent Post

Could you please post that on our SO Cal site. I think alot of people are unaware of this problem.

John

RV-9 QB

3 Sump Failures

I originally posted a variation of this on the Superior XP-360 Forum at Yahoo....http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XP-360Forum/

Posted - Wed Jun 7, 2006 8:27 pm

Today makes the 3rd time the Ryton Sump has failed on my plane
during an induction backfire. I was hot-starting the engine for
departure from another airport, so the plane is now AOG in a strange
hangar away from home. Good thing I was at an airport that had
hangars and service. Imagine the possible scenarios and it gets real
scarry. But anyway, the last 2 failures before this one happened at
home base.

YES, this is the THIRD TIME it's happened. I now hold the Ryton
Record. Last time it happened was about 2 weeks ago. The backfire is
very loud and easy to hear with my Bose headset on. I know right
away when it pierces the sump because the engine revs up for a
moment and runs like S***, then there's little black peices of
Ryton sporting a "Superior Logo" under the plane. Pretty
embarrassing on the ramp.

I have a tic over 150 hours on the engine. Van's RV-7A, XP-IO360-
B1AA2 with 2 Slick mags and forward facing induction, standard start
switch from Van's, sniffle valve on the front port.

The last time it happened, which was a day or 2 before Memorial
Weekend, Fred Marsden from Superior asked us to check the mag
timing. My mech said it was set at 25 per factory specs.

Superior says a new Ryton design will be out in October and that
they will replace my current sump (or which ever number I'm on at
that time), with the new design when it becomes available. Until
then, my new sump and gaskets will be here tomorrow and hopefully
Superior will send the extra spare sump and gaskets I requested so I
can carry them in the plane with me, along with my mechanic!

Certainly, I HATE that this is happening, (you don't know HOW bad I
hate it), but I do believe that Superior will fix the sump issue.
Maybe they can help get to the bottom of my backfire problem too.
Superior's customer service has lived up to their name and I'm happy
with the company. Bob

End of orginal Yahoo post...
------

Here's the update:

Superior sent the sump kit for next day delivery and I was back flying on Friday. They also sent the spare sump that I requested so if it happens again I'll have it handy.

My hot-start technique...Throttle cracked, boost pump on, mixture idle cut off, start engine....always worked well starting the engine unless it backfired and hot-start is the only time it backfires.

Evan from Superior requested that I use Bill Petersen's hot-start technique...which is nothing more than a cold-start. Throttle cracked, mixture rich, boost pump on for a few secs (longer if it's really hot), boost pump off, mixture idle cut-off, start engine.

I asked Evan why there was no hot-start procedures in the operator's manual and he said because, "It's the same as a cold-start".

I thought that his technique would flood the engine to the point where we'd need a fire truck on call for each hot-start. It takes the engine a few more blades to start this way but so far it starts without the backfire. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

My mech installed sniffle valves on both the front and rear ports during the last sump swap and suggested that after pulling the mixture to shutdown, as the engine is winding down, push the throttle to wide open and leave it there until next start-up.

Carolyn and all the folks at Superior have been GREAT to deal with and I'm happy I bought their engine.

We have recently blown out a Ryton sump fitted to a Superior IO-360,with Lightspeed EI on the RH mag, in a RV-7A.

The engine had about 200 hrs on it, and we'd not ever had any blowbacks on startup. It was a little tricky starting when hot, but the blowout occurred on a cold start. The engine caught, fired up, ran a bit 'unevenly' for a few secs, then .....BANG!

Superior got us a replacement sump, but we chickened out, and put another Slick mag onto the LH side.

Have heard that another engine was blown up in the eastern states of Australia - but no details yet.

Like everyone else, we thought EI,FI and lighter weight was the way to go....but are now concerned that the replacement sump is going to be so far off.

We're located at Albany, Western Australia.

We're following developments closely, and appreciate reading whatever you all can find out,

cheers,

Ralph Burnett

Question for N122B

I am curious about whether your engine configuration is with only one impulse mag and if so whether you have the grounding bar installed on the ignition switch to ground out the nonimpulse (usually right side) mag when the switch is in the start position.
An impulse mag has the timing retarted while slow cranking for start. If a non impulse mag is active while cranking it can cause kick backs and back firing during start.

Ryton Sump

Has anyone heard an update on Superior's RV incident in Arizona last month? I recall someone on the list mentioning they thought the engine was equipped with the Ryton sump. Just curious, as I can't find an update from the FAA iniital report the web.

rvbuilder2002 said:

I am curious about whether your engine configuration is with only one impulse mag and if so whether you have the grounding bar installed on the ignition switch to ground out the nonimpulse (usually right side) mag when the switch is in the start position.

Click to expand...

I have dual (2) impulse mags and do not need or want the jumper on the ignition switch.

Sniffle valve location in RV7A

I am happy to say that I have not had my Ryton sump blow up yet. I have duel Slick's on my XP IO 360. I will say that Superior suggested mounting the Sniffle in the forward position based on the Nose Gear configuration but I did not notice much fuel draining after shutdown or after priming. Some but not much. After a while We found that the plug at the rear of the sump that was presumably meant for a tail dragger was not sealed well and leaking small amounts of fuel. The surprise came when we pulled the rear plug to reseal it and a large amount of fuel poured out!
We immediately reinstalled the Sniffle (or Iniffle) valve to the rear port and ever since that time a normal amount of fuel can be seen porting after each shutdown which leads me to think that at least my 7A when parked has enough pitch up to cause that residual sump fuel to pool at the rear of the sump as one would expect a tail dragger to do.
FYI

Replacement sumps

Since it is now October, has anyone received their promised replacement (improved) Ryton sumps from Superior yet. I am waiting for mine so that assembly of the first of three XP-IO-360's can commence.

Ron Russell RV-6 crash

[QUOTE He lost his life after the plane flipped over on landing.QUOTE]

Was Mr. Russell's airplane a slider or tip-up? Was he killed because the roll over structure collapsed or were there other factors?

Stephen Lindberg said:

[QUOTE He lost his life after the plane flipped over on landing.QUOTE]

Was Mr. Russell's airplane a slider or tip-up? Was he killed because the roll over structure collapsed or were there other factors?

Click to expand...

Ron's airplane was a slider. Last time I saw Ron with his airplane was at Grants Pass Labor Day Weekend 2005. A photo of the unpainted airplane is located: http://www.eaa49.av.org/flyouts/Rogue_River_2005/ramp02.jpg
Ron is on the ramp with his wife and the airplane in the background in this photo: http://www.eaa49.av.org/flyouts/Rogue_River_2005/ramp03.jpg


We will need to wait till the final NTSB report is released to know more. Preliminary is at:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060510X00541&key=1

The guy that said the shoulder belts were off has told me that he does not know if they were on or off and cannot say one way or the other. All I can say is you would need to contact the NTSB investigator or wait till the NTSB Final report is out.

VH-VFG said:

Since it is now October, has anyone received their promised replacement (improved) Ryton sumps from Superior yet.

Click to expand...

I have not rec'd my new sump either. A call to Carolyn or Fred may be in order.

On the last sump replacement, we installed sniffle valves on both sump openings and I'm noticing a good bit more fuel on the ground.

Also, since I'm using the Superior suggested cold-start procedure on my hot-starts, I haven't blown any more sumps.

Sniffle valve drip

I have an XP IO 360 installed in an RV 8 with Lasar Ignition.
I ran the motor for the first time during the weekend and noticed that fuel dripped out of the sniffle valve after shutdown. I had three starts and shutdowns. Each time this lasted for several minutes. The sniffle valve is installed in the aft hole of the sump.
Is this normal ?
If so do you attach a length of tubing from the valve to the rear of the cowl to prevent the fuel from dripping onto the cowl ?

Wenjosa said:

Since it is now October, has anyone received their promised replacement (improved) Ryton sumps from Superior yet. I am waiting for mine so that assembly of the first of three XP-IO-360's can commence.

Click to expand...

I attended the XP360 Build School in October, and believe me the "sump issue" is top on Superior's list. But, having said that, I was told that when Thielert bought Superior, they took over the sump project - and took it to Germany. I was told the new sump would NOT be Ryton, but of some other material, and it would have designed into it, a blow-out plug and oil bypass.

Originally I was told they would receive the new sumps from Germany in November, with a delivery date to us customers around mid December. I called last week and Superior is still where they were in October, at least the U.S. shop is - with no projected delivery update. Off the record, their hunch is they'll get a sump for Superior Tech Support to test (dyno and RV6) through January, and then start delivery of production sumps from Thielert to Superior in February. Once Superior gets them there will be about a 4 week turnaround to get new sumps on waiting engines, and out the door. So I'm hoping for a late Feb - early March delivery.