Andair Boost Pump

Andair makes the nicest fuel valves for Experimental airplanes and recently came out with a boost pump.

How many people are FLYING with an Andair Boost pump?

How well does Andair Boost pump work in flight?

What is your fuel pressure with Andair Boost pump on?

What is your fuel pressure Andair Boost pump pump off?

Installed but not flying yet. Here's the video of my installation on the RV-10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3mpcapeBA8

replaced AFP pump w/ Andair

Gary,
I replaced my AFP pump with the Andair for the massive decrease in connections (I had a couple of them seep). 30 hours or so on it now. It's a bit louder, but can't hear it when flying, so it doesn't matter.
I'll mention it to you at the Clinic this weekend if I think of it.

Seb Trost
RV-7A
Boulder City,NV

Mine, too, is installed but not flying yet. Here's a shot of my installation in my RV-7A:



I really like this pump so far. I also bought the Andair fuel selector valve. More on my installation on my web log page here:

Fuel Pump Installation

4 working and 1 failed (20% failure rate) / Why I started the poll Part 1

It has been about 6 days since I started the poll. My Andair pump did not work out of the box. I see that there are four (4) flying and are working. Looks like a 20% failure rate as of this small sampling. I only tested my pump because of hear say that someones pump did not work. I hear that they sent it back and got their money back. I do believe that Andair tested the pump before shipping it. I could smell Stoddard Solvent when I connected it to a 100LL fuel source.

My pump was purchased through the VAF group buy. I do not need the pump right away but have a 360 rebuild project in my hangar to install in my flying RV-6 in the future. (The sooner the better.)

I did not want to pay to ship the pump back and then get a new one. Being an Electrical Engineer during my day job, I am also an FAA A&P, and DAR. I did not see a problem with opening up the pump. Maybe it can be fixed. All of us are human after all and do make mistekes. (intentional miss-spelling)

Seeing what is inside the pump and the reason that it failed, I now know that I do not want this pump flying on my airplane. IMHO, it is not a good enough pump to use on aircraft. IF I am not able to get my money back from Andair, I will NOT sell it to someone for use on an aircraft as I do not like the design. (I am not a mechanical design engineer so my advice may only be worth what you are paying for it.)

I emailed Andair about the pump. Their response and my email to them follows pasted in but first I took a look at this YouTube video.


Note: I am editing the email addresses to slow down spammer.
--- insert ---
Dear Gary,

We would not send out a unit that had not been tested and checked, however any amount of testing and checking sometimes cannot discover some of the problems that manifest themselves in production. I am not going to give lots of excuses to you as you are a professional engineer, but just to say mistakes happen and we all try to learn from them.

In your case, we, here at the factory are very concerned that you have experienced this and we will do anything and everything to bring this to a happy conclusion.

We would welcome the opportunity to offer you a replacement, if you were to agree to this we would pay the return shipping or if you are at Oshkosh this year take it back from you there.

There are a few answers to you fears.

1. The lack of priming: The pump was designed to prime at least to 3 metres and this is normal for all our pumps. The pump you have, that is not priming at all could been caused by two factors, one the "O" ring on one of the check valves becoming dislodged, (and I think you found this to be happening on one of the check valves when you disassembled the unit) this would certainly prevent priming as the return spring would not have the force to close the shuttle against a dislodged "O"ring. The second is remiss on our part through not carrying out any preserving process so the internal parts would be in lubricated condition for start-up.

2. Your concern regarding the very small pin on the outer check valve holder this is purely a location pin for position it has no condition in bearing or torque it is purely position.

3. The lack of flow and pressure, this again is a probable issue with the dislodged "O" ring.

The conclusions: In the months since the VAF sale we have been developing the pump further, it now has the controller integrated on a saddle on top of the main body, some internal parts have been redesigned to reduce noise and to improve performance. the "O" rings on the check valves have now a groove that they sit in and the possibility of sliding down the shuttle barrel has been eliminated .

I hope the explanation above goes someway in helping explain how this may have occurred .


Kind Regards
Andy Phillips
Andair Ltd

PS. You may or maynot know that we test all or products on our own aircraft. Our early pumps were tested on our RV6 and the pump setup you have is running on our RV7 both running well.



Email: andair at andair dot co dot uk
Web: www.andair.co.uk




----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary A. Sobek" Gary at RVdar dot com
To: Pump at andair dot co dot uk; andair at andair dot co dot uk
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 6:16 AM
Subject: Boost Pump


Dear Sir:

I purchased one of your boost pumps as part of the VAF deal. I purchased your pump sight unseen based on the quality of the valves I have seen with your name on.

I tested the pump and it would not self prime. I had to prime it to get it to pump. I did not run it more than 45 seconds without being primed. I used 100LL as the fuel I was attempting to pump. The pump did not appear to pump enough fuel to keep a Lycoming 360 running at full power with only the boost pump supplying fuel.

Since you are in England and I am in the US, I did not want to send the pump back if it could be fixed. More investigation was conducted.

Here is the link to info on what was found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AocoUdGnyGw

This is not a pump that I would use in an aircraft. The pump is not good enough for use in my aircraft. I hope that you are not going to tell me that I cannot get a refund because the pump was disassembled and discovered not to be suitable for Aircraft use.

I am an FAA licensed A&P, DAR, and am a Engineer by training. The aircraft that I was hoping to install the pump in is an RV-6 that I built and have been flying for almost 2,500 hours. I am presently flying with an O-320 but have an IO-360 sitting in my hangar. The pump was going to be used with the engine swap out.

I am not happy with the discovery that the pump is not suitable for aircraft use but I am very happy that I found out before it was installed.

I am very concerned about the quality of your boost pump. A friend died in a fuel injected aircraft like mine when his engine quit on takeoff and his aircraft flipped over when it landed off the paved runway. His neck was broken when the aircraft flipped over. The NTSB investigation found vapor lock as the cause of engine stoppage. The engine was ran during the NTSB investigation and the boost pump was found not to operate. The lesson that I learned from his accident is that the boost pump must work to help prevent vapor lock of the hot engine on a hot day.

Respectfully,

--
Gary A. Sobek

When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been, and there you will always long to return.
- Leonardo da Vinci
--- end insert ---

See next message for part II

4 working and 1 failed (20% failure rate) / Why I started the poll Part 2

Part 2 from last message. (Was too long for one message.)

I am of the opinion that all the pumps purchased should be tested by their owners before they are flown. I recommend testing before you install them. Does it produce self prime, produce a large enough volume for your engine, and will it still pump a large enough volume when a restriction is created to create some pressure?

I do think the issue with the pumps needs to be brought to the attention of all Andair pump owners. I believe that the pump is NOT safe for aircraft use where the o-rings can slip out and cause the pump not to work. I also do not like the small pin or the wear marks.

I know that vacuum pumps have a shear coupling to prevent damage to the engine if the vacuum pump were to seize. In a fuel pump used for aircraft, I would rather the MOTOR seize up instead of breaking a part in the pump. I may hear the pump running but not pumping fuel.

What would you do?

I will not want to use this pump design in my aircraft.

I am concerned that others have the pump that does not have the "improved" design with a grove for the o-rings. The o-ring could slide out of position causing the pump not to work just like you see in the video.

I am not a metallurgist but I question the use of D2 steel that is listed on Andair's pump brochure for the material. (The brochure says: "The Pump components are D2 tool steel providing unequalled wear characteristics.") All I know about D2 steel is what the first return from Google told me when I did a search of it.

I will take the pump with me to AirVenture and see if I can get a full or partial refund. I will not be asking for any money for the testing that was done and pointing out design issues. I hope the design issue are fixed before there is a crash. A new pump is a lot less expensive than needing to replace the entire airplane. Airplanes and pumps can be replaced but lives cannot.

Lets hear your two cents.

I like proven designs in my aircraft....



Weldon J 8100

CURRENT APPLICATIONS
Emergency Fuel Boost
Priming Injected Engines
Fuel Transfer

PERFORMANCE
Rated Flow Range: 25 to 45 G.P. H.
Rated Pressure: 15 to 50 P.S.I.
Temperature Range: -65oF to +185oF

CURRENT FLUIDS
Gasoline
Jet Fuels
Diesel Fuels
Oils
SPECIAL FEATURES
Positive Displacement
Cammed Vane
Self-Priming
High Suction Lift
Integral Pressure Relief Valve

The 8100 Series ?J? Pumps
incorporate all of the features
of the 8000 Series in addition to:
Low Pressure Drop Bypass Valve Permitting Passage of fuel through an Idle Pump

2.5 Lbs. with Permanent Magnet
12 or 28 Volt DC Motor

I guess that what bothers me most about the problem with Gary's pump is that, according to Andair's email, they were aware of the problem with the O-ring slipping down the valve spool, (aware enough that they redesigned it), yet took no action to notify the community of folks that already had the pump with the problem design that there might, indeed, be a problem.

Yes, this is experimental aviation, and yes, that makes us all "testers"....but the essences of flight testing is the sharing of information.

Granted, Andair has no idea who has their pumps - but the Experimental community is small enough that a few notes to a few forums would put out an alert that would reach a huge number of folks quickly. They have had a good reputaiton in the community for a number of years - I fly their valve in my -8,and am impressed with it. But anyone can have a design problem, and when they do, they need to make sure people know about it.

Gary showed me this data yesterday, and from what I have seen, if I had one of these pumps, I would AT LEAST be talking to Andair to find out if it has the new or old valve design.

Andair Pump

I have the original Andair pump installed in my project. I bought it at Oshkosh when they were first released, so I know it must be the old design. I have sent an email to Andair, requesting any information as to a refund, exchange or upgrade to the new design. I will post their response when I get it.

Hi All
Owen/Andy from Andair here.
Look guys we're not in the business of making our customers feel uneasy about our products.
A lot of you out there have Andair products and as far as I know are happy with their performance. Our fuel boost pump has been developed over the years, there has been a great deal of research into the choice of materials and possible secnrios where failures might occur. Regarding this "O" ring discussion please be assured that there is no possiblity that the "O" ring could enter the fuel system, it is totally contained.
Andair is a progressive company we concentrate on fuel related equipment and have spent time and effort in producing a product that is special. The pump was developed through discussions with customers that requested a fresh look in terms of weight and performance. The early pumps are perfectly satisfactory but this company is continuously developing. Releasing the pump when we did was, we feel the correct time having spent so many hours and months on the test bench and flying with the prototypes.
Now this is our proposal.
Customers of the Group buy, and any other purchasers that feel uneasy about your fuel pumps this is what we would like to offer you. If you consider your purchase a bad move, then we will refund your money. If you would like to have your existing pump "up-graded" then we can do that for you. Andair ,I hope, has built a reputation of quality and relibility and we wish to continue to pursue that goal.
You can contact either of us through the company e-mail address

Thanks Owen & Andy, its good to hear from the suppliers on issues such as these. As one of the early adopters (via the groupbuy), I am interested in upgrading to the latest spec - I belive I have an email in to you on this very subject this morning.

I am curious on the details of the design changes made since that batch, and what drove those changes.

Thanks for addressing this openly.

I bought I think the first or one of the first Andair fuel pump that Owen sold at sun n fun 2009, he told me that they have just one plane flying with their pump, his company plane so he gave me 5 years warranty. I have been flying for 1 year and 190 hour with this pump without any issue but with the information that I have read here I will want an upgrade.

I will contact Andair and let you know

Fault tolerance?

One thing that concerns me about the Andair setup compared to the AFP setup is that in the installations I've seen, there appear to be no bypass lines around a clogged filter or failed pump. If I understand AFP's setup correctly, I believe that's what all the spaghetti of lines are for.

It would be nice if the AFP setup had all those lines incorporated into a single manifold block, but failing that, I'd rather have the spaghetti of lines than an unforgiving failure mode.

Edit: I see the Andair has an internal bypass (although it would be nice to know more detail about that); however the filter bypass still seems missing. This thread discusses it as well.

I hope that Andair can provide the serial number at which each upgrade was introduced.

Filter bypass

Mike,
In all fairness to Andair, there is no filter bypass on the AFP pump, the Andair pump or our pump. The line you see that goes to the input side of the AFP filter is the return line from the fuel pressure regulator. This line can not flow in reverse to bypass the filter.

The filters used in these applications are large hole screen mesh filters that are meant only to catch large particulates. They typically are not a clog point unless you have a ton of junk in your fuel system.

That being said there are people who take the design a step further and use a separate filter in-line on each tank supply line before the selector valve. The idea being that if a filter on one tank supply line gets clogged, you still have the other tank with it's separate filter available as a source of fuel.
Our kit comes with two fuel filters. Originally intended as a spare for your first annual, we have seen quite a few people utilize the second filter as described above. Is this overkill? Good question. The system will work either way.

Robert Paisley
EFII Boost Pump Kit ( http://www.flyefii.com/add_components/BPM/BPM.htm )

Scherminator said:

Thanks Owen & Andy, its good to hear from the suppliers on issues such as these. As one of the early adopters (via the groupbuy), I am interested in upgrading to the latest spec - I belive I have an email in to you on this very subject this morning.

I am curious on the details of the design changes made since that batch, and what drove those changes.

Thanks for addressing this openly.

Click to expand...

After testing, our proceedure then was to clear the pumps of test fluid. They were blown out using a high pressure airline, this was to remove all traces of test fluid ready for pumping through with preserving oil. We found on this occasion the pump that had passed all the tests that we had laid down ie priming, performance etc wouldn't prime and suck up the oil. This pump was then investigated to find what had changed it was found that in blowing out the end of the pump with the air had dislodged the o-rings and springs on the bypass.
This was then considered that if we could do this under our test scheme then there was a possibility that the "O" ring could lift off it's seat. The solution was to sit the "O" ring in a shallow groove, this is how the current design was established. It also employs the use of larger o-rings. For added scuritity the springs are bonded to the shuttle.
The new design was tested with high pressure air in the same way as before and found to be able to withstand sustained air pressure, all was all fine.

mcencula Fault tolerance?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing that concerns me about the Andair setup compared to the AFP setup is that in the installations I've seen, there appear to be no bypass lines around a clogged filter or failed pump. If I understand AFP's setup correctly, I believe that's what all the spaghetti of lines are for.

It would be nice if the AFP setup had all those lines incorporated into a single manifold block, but failing that, I'd rather have the spaghetti of lines than an unforgiving failure mode.

Edit: I see the Andair has an internal bypass (although it would be nice to know more detail about that); however the filter bypass still seems missing. This thread discusses it as well.

Click to expand...

That's correct, the Andair Pump has it's own internal bypass and pressure relief. It wouldn't be difficult to manufacture a bypass for the filter in case of a catastrophic clog of the filter, but then we go into issues of 'do we want to be putting contaminated fuel into the engine'

Andy/Owen,

When did the Pumps change? I think mine is the newer style since we talked about this issue at OSH. I just want to make sure.

Thanks,
Phil

whew!

I'm even happier we went with the EFII boost pump after reading all this!

-Frank

The new system took effect on serial number 30453. If your pump is before that number it may be returned for upgrade.

The new system took effect on serial number 30453. If your pump is before that number it may be returned for upgrade.

Click to expand...

Thank you. Do we need an RMA number to send the older units back in?

Have you figured out what the cost will be for the upgrade? Shipping/new parts/labor/etc. adds up. I am not looking for a freebee, just a fair price to get the improved design.

another possibility?

Perhaps a 'care package' consisting of the updated checkvalves could be made to those who don't mind pulling their own pumps apart - warranty issues notwithstanding?

And although never called into question, I wanted to mention that the reliability of small brushless DC motors is exceptional. That - along with the simplified plumbing arrangement - was why I took part in the group buy.

For the record, I am planning to use the ECI fuel injection system, in which the pump is used only for priming in normal operation. Want to be bloody sure it works if the engine-mounted vane pump (also proven to be extremely reliable in my experience) ever goes t/u.

I have sent an email to Andair abou an upgrade of my fuel pump, I will pay for the upgrade but I want the turn around to be fast so my plane will not be grounded too long. bad thing is that Andair is not replying my mails

I have sent two separate emails as well with no response. Has anybody heard from them recently?

Email to Andair... no response...

My email to Andair has gone unanswered as well...

Have you guys tried calling them?

I've tried emailing them over the last several years and never got a response. People have been complaining about the lack of response as far back as I can remember. They just don't answer (or read) their email.

I have had luck in just calling them on the phone. Someone always answered and a person that could help was always available.

I emailed them recently, got a reply in a day or so.

Peter Costick said:

I emailed them recently, got a reply in a day or so.

Click to expand...

You are very lucky!!!!!

Sorry guys for not getting back to you on the emails.
I'll go through then right away and i'll be in touch. If it's any consolation i've been busy making the replacement pumps.

If you want to forward your emails again i'd be grateful.

Owen

Andair LTD said:

Sorry guys for not getting back to you on the emails.
I'll go through then right away and i'll be in touch. If it's any consolation i've been busy making the replacement pumps.

If you want to forward your emails again i'd be grateful.

Owen

Click to expand...

I think I will just cancel my order. I don't want to be wasting time trying to fix a problem from someone that doesn't answer E-mails, let alone from another continent.

SpaYellowNsx said:

I think I will just cancel my order. I don't want to be wasting time trying to fix a problem from someone that doesn't answer E-mails, let alone from another continent.

Click to expand...

Again apologies for not answering emails. By the end of the week we would have fulfilled all pump orders.

The throttle quadrant

Andair LTD said:

Again apologies for not answering emails. By the end of the week we would have fulfilled all pump orders.

Click to expand...

Will it work on the left side for an RV8?

Give them a little break....

Andy sounds like he is busy building new pumps and not on the computer as much. He did respond to me that my replacement updated pump should be shipped this week. Overall, I am satisfied with Andair and while the email responsiveness isn't what we would like to see, its ok.

New Pump Arrived

Thank you Andair.

Wanted to do that publicly.

Just received the new style pump - and I haven't even sent them back my original yet (Canada Post strike pending).

Although the design changed without notice to remedy a potential failure mode, Owen and crew have been very swift to 'make good' since the issue was brought forward here on VAF.

Kudos.

Email still hit or miss

Sent email on 5/24, trying again today:

Hi guys,
Trying again.
Just to be clear, what I?m really interested in is upgrading the check valve / o-ring configuration because of the recently identified failure mode. I?m not really concerned about whether the motor controller is integral to the pump or discreetly mounted as on my existing pump.
Please contact me as soon as possible.
Thanks.

William

William Slaughter [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 6:28 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: Boost Pump up-grade

Gentlemen,
I?d like to have my existing pump upgraded.
SN 30122 10-09
Please let me know the particulars of this process as soon as you?re able.
Thanks.

William Slaughter
713.873.4183 work
281.615.4425 cell

This has been really disappointing for me so far, as I've always been a huge fan of their beautiful products, but the inability to even get a reply concerning an identified potential failure mode - well, that's just not right. Money's already spent, pump's already sitting here, so I'm pretty much totally dependent on the customer service outcome. Still hoping for the best.
Contrast with the Tru-trak upgrade to my existing servos-
Emailed request
Got immediate reply
Sent in servos
Promptly upgraded and returned for a reasonable fee.
That's how it should be done!

Waiting for email answer from Andair

I think Andair products are great and beautiful, Andy and Owen are great guys too, but they are not good with email

I have send the the following email and waiting for answer

"Hi Andy/Owen,

I am Fernando Abasolo from Chile, I bought the first pump that you sold at sun n fun, also I bought gascolator and fuel selector valve for my RV-8. As you told me that I was the first customer you gave me 5 years warranty, pump has been running great for 200 hours but I will like to have an upgrade, I understand that my pump has not fail, so is not warranty, I will pay for the upgrade but I don't want my plane to be on ground waiting for new pump, could you please send me the new pump and I will send you the old one later, I will provide you with my credit card information.

Please reply ASAP."

Received my replacement pump today...

I received my replacement pump today, thanks Owen!

The new unit appears to have a slightly different body along with an integrated controller and a threaded inlet. It looks like the four mounting points are the same and I suspect it is a wee bit longer with the threaded fitting so I will likely need to bend a new inlet tube. Hopefully it is quieter. I will update the thread after I get it installed.

[email protected] said:

I received my replacement pump today, thanks Owen!

Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,
Did you receive any correspondence from Andair between your last post and this one? Still no response to my emails.

Andair fuel selector?

Vans was supposed to have a supply from Andair on 5/1. Then, moved to 6/1. Now, looking like 7/1. Andy, do you have any idea when they will be shipped?

hit or miss...

communication with Andair is frustratingly hit or miss... when you actually get a response it is prompt and efficient; unfortunately, most emails go dark without acknowledgment or response...

as a followup: i received a replacement pump that performs well out of specification both on the factory test card and in my installation... it pumps a at higher pressure than specified with a higher maximum pressure, likely just fine, but well over spec...

closed flow @ 42 psi and 30gph @ 32 psi
versus the spec of
closed flow max 30-33 psi and 16 gph @ 27-30psi

in reply from Andiair... the higher pressure allows a greater safety margin and most injector bodies can handle 80psi with a working pressure of 30-40.

heads up on the new pumps... mine draws 8 amps up from the previous spec of a max of 6

Just talked to Vans, and they are in the dark as well. They have not heard back from Andair, and they have no idea when he plans to send the fuel selectors.

T51 - 20 Fuel Selectors dispatched to Vans yesterday (20th) expected arival Wednesday 22nd.

Everyone who has contacted me regarding the pump exchange should have an email from either myself or Kimberly. If you think you should have received an email but you have not, check your spam folder, and please send again. I'll be doing the same.

The first ones to come on have been supplied and expecting to dispatch the remaining during next week.

Stephen - You spotted that we've not updated the box's spec to what the new version pumps are now delivering. This have been updated.

Andair LTD said:

T51 - 20 Fuel Selectors dispatched to Vans yesterday (20th) expected arival Wednesday 22nd.

Everyone who has contacted me regarding the pump exchange should have an email from either myself or Kimberly. If you think you should have received an email but you have not, check your spam folder, and please send again. I'll be doing the same.

The first ones to come on have been supplied and expecting to dispatch the remaining during next week.

Stephen - You spotted that we've not updated the box's spec to what the new version pumps are now delivering. This have been updated.

Click to expand...

How about fuel selectors, the ones that Vans was going to have on May 1st?

::::holding breath:::::

T51 Pilot said:

How about fuel selectors, the ones that Vans was going to have on May 1st?

::::holding breath:::::

Click to expand...

Those ones are in transit now to Vans.
Late yes i know. The simple fact of the matter is that we had an unprecedented influx of orders that used the same parts as used on the valves that we do for Vans. This wiped us out of stock.

Update

On Stephen's advice, I emailed Owen directly, and after a couple of tries spanning a week, I'm now "on the list" to get an updated pump, having sent in my shipping address. Thankfully, I'm not critical path on the pump installation, but I sure would like to get this wrapped up. The uncertainty has really been wearing on me. As previously mentioned, when I finally got a response, I got it promptly, and it was very cordial, and the promised result is all I could hope for. Fingers crossed!

Adair is back.

I just got an email from Andair. I sent in two emails asking for information on how to exchange/upgrade my original design pump. They responded with an offer to swap it out, once the new models are through production.

This is a great resolution, since all I had asked for was how much the upgrade would cost. I just wish the communication hadn't taken quite so long. I was starting to wonder....

But all is well that ends well. I still like the Andair products. In fact my plane has their fuel selector, throttle quadrant, gas colater and the fuel pump.