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LED NAV & Strobe Installation Wiring

647jc

647jc

Well Known Member
Regarding LED Nav and Strobe installations; I?m considering an AeroLED installation and wondering how others have wired and protected the installation. According to the AeroLED installation document for the Pulsar EXP combination NAV / Strobe unit, they recommend budgeting .5 amps per NAV and 3 amps per strobe. 'Breaker size will depend on the number of lights installed'. They also recommend a 3 conductor 20 gauge shielded cable run to each unit.

I would like to install 3 of these units, and connect them to one NAV breaker @3 amps and one strobe breaker @10 amps. If I use a 10 amp breaker for the strobes I would need to run 12 gauge wires to each of the strobe units if I didn?t want to break any wiring rules. This would mean I need to locate a source for 3 conductor shielded 12 gauge cable which is very hard to find and horribly expensive. To use the recommended 3 conductor shielded 20 gauge cable, I would really need to fuse or provide 3 amp breakers for each of the 3 strobes assuming about a 15 feet run to each unit.

I?m curious how others have installed these systems, a small breaker for each strobe and use 20 gauge shielded cable or one large breaker and use 12 gauge cable or one large breaker and still use the 20 gauge cable which violates wiring rules.
 
If I use a 10 amp breaker for the strobes I would need to run 12 gauge wires to each of the strobe units if I didn?t want to break any wiring rules.- Joe Condon
Click to expand...

What is this rule that says 12 gauge for 10A? I see 18 AWG in 43.13-1A figure 11.1 and AN-20 figure 11.5 single wire in free air.

I followed AeroLED instructions and used 20 AWG for my 3 strobe lights.
 
I'm using Van's wiring table that provides wire gauge size based on Breaker/Fuse size and length of run. May not be as detailed or accurate as the advisory circular but it's easy to use and works. Van's table states that a 10 amp breaker circuit at 20 feet length requires 12 gauge wire. I may be able to fudge and say the max run would be 11 - 17 feet which would get me down to 14 gauge but still quite a ways away from the 20 awg recommended. According to Van's table, 20 awg should not be used with a 10 amp breaker no matter what the distance. I know the airplane is not going to burst into flames or fall out of the sky if I use 20 awg, I'm just trying to get an idea what others are doing
 
Van's table

I think I see that you are using the table in section 5 of the builder's manual? "wire length vs wire size"?
 
One could always install a 14 or 16 ga wire

to a 6 circuit fuse block centrally located then install a 3A fuse for each strobe and 1A fuse for each nav. Then you only have one 10A circuit breaker up front.
 
Yes, a fuse block might be a good solution. The NAV circuits are ok with a single breaker since they only draw .5 amps each, just the strobes that draw 3 amps are an issue. Next question before I consult the regulations, does the fuse block have to be accessible in flight and would you have to carry spares?
 
Each individual light only draws 3.5 Amps peak, so 20 gauge wire is OK. If you gang them all up on one breaker, a 10 Amp breaker is required so it doesn't trip when all strobes fire at once. If you are concerned about protecting each individual wire run, you can put a 4 amp fuse in line with each run.

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC
 
I have four fuse blocks and one "ALT" 5A pullable breaker.

All four of them are not accessible in flight and it is not required. Spares are required. Only one will require removing a access panel to the tailcone. The other three are mounted to subpanel. If I have an inflight problem I'll troubleshoot when I get back on the ground as one should do with breakers.
 
RF Noise

Joe,

I installed the AeroLED's for NAV/Strobe and landing lights.

The Nav lights give me a bunch of white noise so you really need to insure you use the shielded wire.

You also should follow the AeroLED wiring diagrams as to grounding the shields properly.

I installed my lights before the update and am still chasing the noise, I have installed capacitors, resistors and most recently was able to rewire one wing, but no change.

I know I'm making some progress as about 50 % of the time when I select the NAV lights on there is no noise.

I like them and get a lot of comments as to how bright they are, I just have to get rid of the noise!

Good luck,
 
Thanks for all the great input. I now plan to use a 10 amp breaker feeding a 4 circuit auto fuse block mounted on the sub panel using 3 of the circuits with 4 amp fuses for each of the 3 strobe circuits. I should then be able to use the recommended 20 gauge shielded wire for the NAV/Strobe runs.

I'm quite concerned about the electrical noise some installations are experiencing. If the AeroLED installation instructions are followed to a tee, will the installation be quiet, any comments from those who have followed the installation instructions exactly?
 
SmilingJack said:
Joe,

I installed the AeroLED's for NAV/Strobe and landing lights.

The Nav lights give me a bunch of white noise so you really need to insure you use the shielded wire.

You also should follow the AeroLED wiring diagrams as to grounding the shields properly.

I installed my lights before the update and am still chasing the noise, I have installed capacitors, resistors and most recently was able to rewire one wing, but no change.

I know I'm making some progress as about 50 % of the time when I select the NAV lights on there is no noise.

I like them and get a lot of comments as to how bright they are, I just have to get rid of the noise!

Good luck,
Click to expand...

Here is an inexpensive filter from Crutchfield that one of our customers used to quiet his intercom:

I thought I?d get back to you regarding my noise issue. The grounding of the Nav lights didn?t take care of my problem. It was something else I wouldn?t have suspected.

A guy from PS Engineering helped me figure it out. He said that if you wire the audio output from a Garmin portable GPS like the 296, 396 or 496 to your audio panel and connect that GPS to ship's power you will be guaranteed to get a ground loop noise problem. If you were to run the GPS on only it's batteries you won't have the problem. But of course you wouldn't want to do that. So the fix is to simply put a ground loop isolation filter in the audio line going between the GPS and the audio panel. It's an $18 part you can buy here:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_127SNI135/PAC-SNI-1-3-5-Noise-Filter.html?tp=2653

That fixed the problem and I have been flying noise free for several months now. And the installation was simply unplugging the audio from the GPS and plugging this in between. I thought I?d pass this along in case you hadn?t heard of the issue and have other noise complaints in the future. By the way, your strobes and nav lights have been working great.
Click to expand...
 
647jc said:
Thanks for all the great input. I now plan to use a 10 amp breaker feeding a 4 circuit auto fuse block mounted on the sub panel using 3 of the circuits with 4 amp fuses for each of the 3 strobe circuits. I should then be able to use the recommended 20 gauge shielded wire for the NAV/Strobe runs.

I'm quite concerned about the electrical noise some installations are experiencing. If the AeroLED installation instructions are followed to a tee, will the installation be quiet, any comments from those who have followed the installation instructions exactly?
Click to expand...

From my experience, most noise problems are cause by:

1. Not grounding per our latest installation instructions.

2. Running your antenna coax too close to the strobe wires (shielded or not) or any other wire run. The antenna coax should be at least 3 inches away from any other wire run to avoid near-field coupling.

3. A ground loop in the connection to your intercom/audio panel. See the above post about the use of an inexpensive audio filter from Crutchfield to eliminate that issue.

Most builders who adhere to items 1 and 2 above haven't had problems, but a few have had issues, and at least one was fixed using the Crutchfield filter due to item 3.

Proper grounding eliminates the RF issues, but audio frequency noise is typically what remains if your intercom filtering isn't adequate, and in that case the Crutchfield filter should take care of it, and have the added benefit of removing any other audio noise from other sources on the plane.
 
Joe,
I have the Aeroleds wired through a 10 amp switch/breaker and no other fuses after that. Don't recall wire size.

With the engine off I can hear some very faint noise but have never heard anything after start-up.

You'll like the Aeroleds once installed, I've had many a comment on their visibilty, even on sunny days people have told me they can see the red and green nav lights from several miles away.

Kelley
 
Noise...cont...

Joe, just to add to what Dean said, my NAV/Strobe light wires along with my Landing light wires run all together in the same wing conduit as my VHF #2 wingtip mounted antenna and on the other wing my VOR wingtip mounted antenna.

If I have 3mm between each wire thats a lot! never mind the 3 inches Dean recommends.

I "ONLY" get noise when I switch on my NAV lights. The Strobes and the Landing lights have NO noise.

Also, I have no issues in my radios that are causing my issue - Engine on engine off, all other testing...it just comes down to a grounding issue somewhere for me.

Again, since I didn't used the Shielded wire during the build I have to go back and reinstall shielded wire and try to ground the shield properly too.

When I installed shielded wire in the LEft wing I grounded the shield out on the wingtip, but not at the wing root. Thats because it is impossible to ground at the root while the wing is mounted.

I figure I will wait until my "Annual" when I tear up the interior and ground it then closer to the wing root and of course replace some other shielded wire.

AeroLED (Dean) has been responsive all the way for me and I do really like their product.
 
Noise gone!

I've been waiting a while to post this until I actually found the solution (at least for my airplane). A few months ago I replaced all of my Whelen strobes and nav lights with the Aeroleds nav/stobe combo, both on the wingtips and the tail. The impetus for this was that I was installing the ADSB receiver in my 10, and by removing the Whelen strobe supply which was mounted to the side wall behind the baggage bulkhead, I wouldn't have to add another mount. I've always prided myself in a very quiet electrical system, with no noise, which made communications very clear and music very pleasant. The Whelen setup had zero noise when the strobes were on.
Not so the Aeroleds, and I was very dissappointed. The noise was driving me nuts, as it was very annoying whenever the radio was receiving, the intercomm was open, or audio alerts were playing. I couldn't very well complain because I didn't EXACTLY follow the wiring directions. It takes a lot of work to remove all of the side panels in the 10 to gain access to the wiring from front to back. I decided that since I had power from the panel wired to the original Whelen supply, I would use that even though I did not have that portion of the power shielded. But from the distribution point of where the supply originally was located, I reused the shielded wire out to the wings and tail, and did the appropriate grounding as per the instructions. I even installed ferrite beads allegedely tuned to our VHF frequencies. All to no avail.
Last week I added 2 electrolytic capacitors across the power lead and ground right behind the baggage bulkhead, and I am very happy to report that after 2 hours of flight yesterday, ALL of the noise appears to be gone. I was on an IFR flight plan, so lots of frequencies were used, and the usual culprits were just as quiet. It was interesting to me that I could hear them while ont he ground and outside of the airplane, and now they are much quiter outside as well.
For the details, I used a 100 uf and a 225 uf capacitor rated at 50 volts. Yes, a single 325 uf would probably suffice, but I didn't have one to try. :)

I am now very happy with my Aeroled installation. :)

Vic
 
Hi Vic,

That solution indicates that your problems were 100% in the audio frequency range (strobe pulising frequency, rapid fire quad), which is where a bulk electrolytic cap will filter out conducted noise. Odds are that your intercom power supply wasn't doing a very good job of rejecting audio frequency conducted signals, so adding those caps eliminated the problem by keeping all the audio noise in the wiring running to the lights from getting past the baggage bulkhead where you installed them, and reaching your intercom.

Noise from the position lights is typically higher than audio frequency, so if you get interference from that it is typically due to improper grounding and/or near-field coupling from the light wiring into the antenna coax (shielding and routing/spacing issues).

It is possible to install our lights with no noise, and I have helped quite a few builders figure out where their problem was. Typical problems are:

1. Failure to ground the mount and ground wire to a common point within a few feet of the light installation.
2. Lack of shielding on the wire run.
3. Too much proximity between the antenna coax and the light wire run.
4. An overly sensitive intercom to audio noise (this is where adding a bulk capacitor from the strobe power wire to ground somewhere between the light and the fuselage makes a big difference).
5. A ground loop issue with the intercom (this is where a ground loop filter like the one from Crutchfield can fix it).

Glad you were able to resolve your noise problem. Fly safe and have fun!

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC

vic syracuse said:
I've been waiting a while to post this until I actually found the solution (at least for my airplane). A few months ago I replaced all of my Whelen strobes and nav lights with the Aeroleds nav/stobe combo, both on the wingtips and the tail. The impetus for this was that I was installing the ADSB receiver in my 10, and by removing the Whelen strobe supply which was mounted to the side wall behind the baggage bulkhead, I wouldn't have to add another mount. I've always prided myself in a very quiet electrical system, with no noise, which made communications very clear and music very pleasant. The Whelen setup had zero noise when the strobes were on.
Not so the Aeroleds, and I was very dissappointed. The noise was driving me nuts, as it was very annoying whenever the radio was receiving, the intercomm was open, or audio alerts were playing. I couldn't very well complain because I didn't EXACTLY follow the wiring directions. It takes a lot of work to remove all of the side panels in the 10 to gain access to the wiring from front to back. I decided that since I had power from the panel wired to the original Whelen supply, I would use that even though I did not have that portion of the power shielded. But from the distribution point of where the supply originally was located, I reused the shielded wire out to the wings and tail, and did the appropriate grounding as per the instructions. I even installed ferrite beads allegedely tuned to our VHF frequencies. All to no avail.
Last week I added 2 electrolytic capacitors across the power lead and ground right behind the baggage bulkhead, and I am very happy to report that after 2 hours of flight yesterday, ALL of the noise appears to be gone. I was on an IFR flight plan, so lots of frequencies were used, and the usual culprits were just as quiet. It was interesting to me that I could hear them while ont he ground and outside of the airplane, and now they are much quiter outside as well.
For the details, I used a 100 uf and a 225 uf capacitor rated at 50 volts. Yes, a single 325 uf would probably suffice, but I didn't have one to try. :)

I am now very happy with my Aeroled installation. :)

Vic
Click to expand...
 
What has been peoples experience with regard to noise with the Aveo Engineering products? I am still chasing noise with my AEROLEDS installation and am about to give up. Have tried every wiring configuration that AEROLEDS has published. Currently have shielded wire and grounded as per their current instructions. The Nav light is the biggest culprit, especially on some frequencies. Strobes are pretty quiet.
 
Aveo

flickroll said:
What has been peoples experience with regard to noise with the Aveo Engineering products? I am still chasing noise with my AEROLEDS installation and am about to give up. Have tried every wiring configuration that AEROLEDS has published. Currently have shielded wire and grounded as per their current instructions. The Nav light is the biggest culprit, especially on some frequencies. Strobes are pretty quiet.
Click to expand...

I have a full set up Aveo lights on my 7. This includes their 6 in 1 landing/taxi light set up with the position and strobes mounted on the landing/taxi light cans. The landing lights are extremely bright. I fly at night quite often going to/from work. This is a huge difference from the completely inadequate LE lights I had before.

The only noise I experience is when the landing light is initially turned on. There is a slight squeal for about 2 seconds then it goes away. The strobes are silent.

Aveo put extensive research into the system to avoid noise. A requirement for the big buck Certified customers.

The Aero LED's are a great product and the noise issue looks to be easily resolved. The product support is obviously evident. Thank Dean!!!!
 
Darwin, do you get any noise from the Aveo nav lights? That's my biggest issue at present, so much so that I don't like flying at night due to noise/unreadability of distant stations. If I turn the nav lights off the radio reception is fine. Obviously not a solution for night flying.

Which Aveo Nav/Strobe lights do you have? Do you think they're 'bright' enough? In other words, do you know if they comply with the Fed requirements for lumen output? Thanks
 
flickroll said:
What has been peoples experience with regard to noise with the Aveo Engineering products? I am still chasing noise with my AEROLEDS installation and am about to give up. Have tried every wiring configuration that AEROLEDS has published. Currently have shielded wire and grounded as per their current instructions. The Nav light is the biggest culprit, especially on some frequencies. Strobes are pretty quiet.
Click to expand...

Hi Jim,

If you measure the resistance from the set screw on the back of the Pulsar light (that holds it in place) to a rivit on the wing, how much resistance do you get on a multi-meter?

Dean
 
Hi Dean

I won't be able to check that until this weekend but I suspect it will be pretty darn close to zero. I've removed the anodizing from the body of the light and have a ground wire run from the body to the airframe.
 
flickroll said:
Hi Dean

I won't be able to check that until this weekend but I suspect it will be pretty darn close to zero. I've removed the anodizing from the body of the light and have a ground wire run from the body to the airframe.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to make sure, the fact that you have noise from the position lights is puzzling, because with the heatsink of the lights and the black wire both connected to the airframe ground close to the light, there shouldn't be any significant RFI... are there any specific frequencies that you hear it on more than others? If not, it may actually be audio frequency conducted emissions rather than RFI, in which case it may be a matter of your intercom picking up noise through an audio input from a Garmin nav/com which seems to be the most common path into the intercom (a Garmin engineer told me at Oshkosh that they have a known ground-loop issue on some of their systems that they addressed in newer designs that can allow audio noise to get into the intercom from the electrical system).

A couple of more questions just to remind me of where you are at with your installation: Are there inductors inline with the power wires in the pigtail from the lights? (We started adding those over a year ago to provide conducted emissions filtering) Do you have electrolytic capacitors on the strobe and/or position light power wires near each light? I am asking that because if there is an audio susceptibility in your intercom/radio combination, and you are only hearing the noise from the position lights, adding a bulk capacitor to the position light power input near each light should substantially reduce the audio frequency conducted emissions. I can send you two 1000uF 50V caps to put on the position light power wires by each light, which will eliminate the noise if it is audio rather than radio frequency that is the problem...

Dean
 
Cable needet, solder shrink needet ... ...

Hello Dean

I will install Nav/Strobe lights from you, I will follow your wirining diagramm and I will use your wire.

But PLEASE give effort into your sale-strategy, so that your vendors not only sell the lights. Thats the mayor part of all the instalation problems.
I need to buy all the needed parts from different vendors like: the lights from Vans, the cable from you, the solder shrink connector you mentioned in a thread from newark ... ...

Why not make all these material available form the same place where the lights can be bought! Why not making a Instalation kit! This would make it much easyer for the builder to do it the correct way and also would like unload your support lines!

Please think about it, a good product can get bad rumor quickly, if the right material to install it propperly is not available.


Best regards,

Dominik
 
Shielding from fuse block to switches to triple shielded wire?

Dean,

I'm upgrading my RV-8A from Whelen strobes to AeroLEDs. I have lights on the wingtips as well as the tail. I already have triple shielded 18 AWG strobe wiring running from the strobe power supply out to each wingtip and the tail, so for convenience I'd like to keep this wiring in place, tie them together in the center fuselage, and then run the power wires (red & yellow) up to the toggle switches in my instrument panel, and then back to a common 10A fuse. Would it be best if the red and yellow wire are a twisted shielded pair instead of two individual unshielded wires as shown in the wiring diagram? If so should I continue the shielding past the switches all the way to the fuse block?

Thanks,

--Mark Navratil
RV-8A N2D
 
Hi Mark,

I think that your existing wiring should work fine as long as you ground the mounting brackets per the installation instructions. What you are describing should be acceptable, just make sure that you remove the strobe power supply as it is not needed with the LEDs and can damage them (you probably know that).

Best Regards,

Dean Wilkinson
CTO, AeroLEDs LLC

czechsix said:
Dean,

I'm upgrading my RV-8A from Whelen strobes to AeroLEDs. I have lights on the wingtips as well as the tail. I already have triple shielded 18 AWG strobe wiring running from the strobe power supply out to each wingtip and the tail, so for convenience I'd like to keep this wiring in place, tie them together in the center fuselage, and then run the power wires (red & yellow) up to the toggle switches in my instrument panel, and then back to a common 10A fuse. Would it be best if the red and yellow wire are a twisted shielded pair instead of two individual unshielded wires as shown in the wiring diagram? If so should I continue the shielding past the switches all the way to the fuse block?

Thanks,

--Mark Navratil
RV-8A N2D
Click to expand...
 
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