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SnF disaster, which is the "best" Tiedown?

Walt

Walt

Well Known Member
All this carnage witnessed and SnF has me a bit concerned now so I'm researching which is really the best tie down? I currently have a fly-ties but thinking I may need something better. With OshKosh right around the corner I am wondering is there a better tie down than what I currently own? I saw the "Storm Force" and am considering purchasing it. Any thoughts?
 
Just speculating--The Claw or the Storm Force seem superior to the screw-in anchors. Also consider some sort of lift-destroying plank or bar you can attach to the top wing surface. Aviation Consumer did a review of tiedowns but you probably need a subscription to read the full article. At that time (June 2009) The Claw came out best.

But, unless your aircraft neighbors use the same, their loose aircraft can still damage yours. And in a storm like at SnF, would any temporary anchor really hold?
 
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Interesting that they tested their product at the "recommended 45 degree angle" and tested the others in a vertical application.

That alone makes it difficult to view this as an apples to apples comparison.

If they would go back and run the same test (the 45 degree test) on all the products in the comparison, that would tell us something.
 
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We used the "claw". It held very well. RV's faired very well in general. Most of the damaged planes were high wings. The problem with Sun and Fun, it that the soil is VERY sandy. I suspect many designs would fail in those conditions.
 
Tony,

You are SPOT on here, sand is definitely the worst! And... any tiedown can fail! Many times it's due to not using them/installing them properly... but tornados and straight line winds are hard to defend against.



apkp777 said:
We used the "claw". It held very well. RV's faired very well in general. Most of the damaged planes were high wings. The problem with Sun and Fun, it that the soil is VERY sandy. I suspect many designs would fail in those conditions.
Click to expand...
 
I have NO experience with this technique, so I'll let others confirm or flame it.

My dad tells me that when they tied their Cubs, Pawnees, etc. down in west Texas (known for high winds and t-storms) that they tied them pointed into the expected wind AND left the tail untied. The idea was that the tail would lift as needed so that the rest of the plane stayed put.

Obviously, this would allow the tail to bounce around, but when you've got a supercell heading your way and no hangars nearby, maybe it's a better choice than a flipped plane.
 
You can make your own tie-downs. Heck, you built the plane, this is easy.

I use two crossed stakes at each tie-down point. They go through an aluminum block that has a hole for the tie-down rope. The stakes are about 18" long but longer is better.

You can buy titanium rod, not cheap, but the best stake material available. McMaster sells it. Their 89145K353 is 3/8" diameter, three feet long. Cut it in half and you've got stakes for one wing - if you want longer, buy their 6' length and make three from that. You'll need to sharpen one end and put an eye or a cross-arm at the top end to give you something to pull it out with. Remember that you need to pound on the top end.

Mine are 1/2" diameter and I think that's overkill.

For ropes, please, please, don't use nylon. It's too stretchy. Use polyester or go to the Defender.com or the West Marine sites and order some rope with a hi-tech core like Dyneema, Vectran or Technora in a polyester cover. They have much less stretch than even the polyester ropes. Here's a good example:
http://tinyurl.com/4xm8r7u

This stuff has a strength of 7,800 pounds for the 5/16" size and has excellent durability.

If you're browsing you might need to search for competition marine ropes rather than recreational marine.

Double the ropes and make certain that they are tight. What I do is tie one wing tight, then the other wing, pulling it tight too. Then go to the tail (I have a taildragger) and pull the plane backwards until it creaks a bit. Then tie the tail there. Tightly.

The reason for doubling the ropes is to reduce stretch. The last thing you want is the plane moving around.

1/2" diameter ropes are fine for polyester. If you use the marine ropes I mentioned, you can drop down considerably, and I'd think that 5/16" or even 1/4" diameter would be plenty safe.

If I think there's going to be a strong wind, I will probably tie a rope from the tie-down anchors under the wings to the nearest wheels - easier to do on my Skywagon than on an RV with wheel and strut fairings.
 
We tied down originally with screw type tiedowns and literally ran to purchase the CLAW when the winds picked up on Wednesday. Our plane didn't move in the high winds overnight. If you look at the aftermath photos, you will see many planes still anchored to the ground with the claw. It looks like other structural failure but the claw still held. They were easy to put in the ground and easy to remove and store in the included nylon bag. Although they weigh 8 lbs, I will not go to any grass field without them from now on. We bailed out of S&F 20 minutes before the tornado hit. Whew!!!!
Woodman
 
Jusy my observations

I did see at least 3 separate CLAW tie down devices that had broken just outside the center hinge point.

Granted that the winds were excessive, but to have 3 of the same failures told me I personally didn't want to trust my plane to those.

I have chain tiedowns like the ones shown earlier in the post about Danny Kight's 6. I use 12 inch timber nails angled toward the center and make sure to space the chain ends 120 degrees apart. My plane was on the end of row 10 at Sun n Fun. I was 3 planes north of Stripe's 7A and Mutha's 8 and 1 row west of Pooners and Sleepy's tangle so I know they were put to the test.

Also, most of us with our tails pointed west strapped the stick forward to keep pressure on the tail and I'm sure that helped. I know you can't be sure which way the wind will eventually come from, but I knew the brunt of the weather was moving east rapidly.

And, I'm sure the man upstairs and luck was on my side.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I'll keep my system over the CLAW.
 
I walked the weckage after they piled it all up near our camp-site. I saw broken claws and some with just the claw style nails (gutter nail) just holding one of the Husky products down. I honestly didn't see any of the screw types sitting around the planes but that didn't mean they were not used.

I good tie down is a must for storms/winds but there is NOTHING you can do to hold down an airplane in a true tornado. These things have been known to suck the asphalt off roads. They/we are really lucky no one was killed.

Sun-n-fun was great again this year. We camped at HBC and of course had beer and meat with old friends and new friends. The night show was amazing. Bigger is not always better so I may skip OSH again this year.
 
Brantel said:
I agree they must think we are stupid with that video. Test em all the same way!!!!
Click to expand...

Hi Guys,
I'm the co-owner of the Storm Force Aircraft Tie Down company. I have to say that respectfully, both The Claw and FlyTies suggest that you tie your aircraft down at a 90 degree angle using their product. (which isn't what the faa suggests)

We were in fact being fair by testing their product exactly how they suggest you use it (at a 90 degree angle.) In fact: testing both the Claw and FlyTies at a 45 degree angle yielded a worse result. The Claw and FlyTies were much weaker at a 45 degree angle. The Claw even snaps (breaks) at 170lbs from being tied at a 45.

So really, and again with respect, we were actually giving the competition some slack by showing their products in our video at a 90 degree angle. Comparing apples to apples the storm force tie down is even stronger.

I understand I have a bias view, but I really stand behind our product, and all of our tests, no matter at a 45 or 90 degree angle, concluded that the Storm Force Tie Down is indeed stronger.

I hope I have shed some light to the situation, and if anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me directly: [email protected]

And don't forget to checkout the website! :) www.StormForceTieDowns.com

Thanks!
 
stormforcetds said:
Hi Guys,
I'm the co-owner of the Storm Force Aircraft Tie Down company. I have to say that respectfully, both The Claw and FlyTies suggest that you tie your aircraft down at a 90 degree angle using their product. (which isn't what the faa suggests)

We were in fact being fair by testing their product exactly how they suggest you use it (at a 90 degree angle.) In fact: testing both the Claw and FlyTies at a 45 degree angle yielded a worse result. The Claw and FlyTies were much weaker at a 45 degree angle. The Claw even snaps (breaks) at 170lbs from being tied at a 45.

So really, and again with respect, we were actually giving the competition some slack by showing their products in our video at a 90 degree angle. Comparing apples to apples the storm force tie down is even stronger.

I understand I have a bias view, but I really stand behind our product, and all of our tests, no matter at a 45 or 90 degree angle, concluded that the Storm Force Tie Down is indeed stronger.

I hope I have shed some light to the situation, and if anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me directly: [email protected]

And don't forget to checkout the website! :) www.StormForceTieDowns.com

Thanks!
Click to expand...

By the way, I changed our website to include what I just described above. Thanks for bringing up the confusion! I really do appreciate it. See the changes here (below the video): http://www.stormforcetiedowns.com/Why-Choose-Storm-Force_ep_43.html

I hope you guys will give our product a try. If you like, please feel free to use the coupon code VAF01 for an extra $10 off, on top of the Sun 'n Fun sale.

Again, please feel free to contact me if you have any more questions!
 
Welcome to VAF!!!!

stormforcetds said:
Hi Guys,
I'm the co-owner of the Storm Force Aircraft Tie Down company.

<snip>


I hope I have shed some light to the situation, and if anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me directly: [email protected]

And don't forget to checkout the website! :) www.StormForceTieDowns.com

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Adam, welcome to the Force:D

Always glad to see a vendor come here, great to know you care enough to join up.

I was wondering if your testing rig was set up as per the mfg recommendations, glad to see that cleared up, thanks.

LOVE the music choice:D

By any chance, are you a RV pilot???
 
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stormforcetds said:
Hi Guys,
I'm the co-owner of the Storm Force Aircraft Tie Down company. I have to say that respectfully, both The Claw and FlyTies suggest that you tie your aircraft down at a 90 degree angle using their product. (which isn't what the faa suggests)

We were in fact being fair by testing their product exactly how they suggest you use it (at a 90 degree angle.) In fact: testing both the Claw and FlyTies at a 45 degree angle yielded a worse result. The Claw and FlyTies were much weaker at a 45 degree angle. The Claw even snaps (breaks) at 170lbs from being tied at a 45.

<snip>
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the clarification.
 
hydroguy2 said:
I want to see the tests in dirt. I've never had to pound my tiedowns into pavement
Click to expand...

Dirt can be of a wide variety... different sands, clays, black gumbo etc... The claw footprint is overall a good design, the material used to produce them IMHO seems to be the issue. Again, keeping tight ropes is KEY, one loose rope or ground mount and you've got a big problem with any major winds.

Remember this system? Works great! http://www.vintageaircraft.org/magazine/aircraft_tiedown.pdf
 
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Storm Force is the only tie down that ...

LifeofReiley said:
Dirt can be of a wide variety... different sands, clays, black gumbo etc... The claw footprint is overall a good design, the material used to produce them IMHO seems to be the issue.
Click to expand...

Storm Force here again...

Storm Force is the only tie down that utilizes 4 stakes opposing the load. The Claw and Fly-Ties both use 3 stakes at various angles. With either of these design you have at most 2 stakes opposing the load.

We made our first trip to OshKosh several years ago. We wanted a tie down that was simple and reliable - not a gadget. Our design is stronger, lighter, better. Hey! Maybe we could use that as our slogan!

Thanks for the interest!
 
stormforce said:
Storm Force here again...

Storm Force is the only tie down that utilizes 4 stakes opposing the load. The Claw and Fly-Ties both use 3 stakes at various angles. With either of these design you have at most 2 stakes opposing the load.

We made our first trip to OshKosh several years ago. We wanted a tie down that was simple and reliable - not a gadget. Our design is stronger, lighter, better. Hey! Maybe we could use that as our slogan!

Thanks for the interest!
Click to expand...

Hi Adam,

From what I see your ground mounting system seems to work well. Just curious, I'll fab a set up tomorrow and do some testing in different soils around my area... we have it all soil wise. :)

Might want to ditch the tornado symbol after Sun N Fun... :eek:
 
Comments have been made that the ropes need to be tight. Given that making them tight and able to remain tight may not be typical for most folks like me, would a ratcheting strap make more sense?
 
Mike S said:
Adam, welcome to the Force:D

Always glad to see a vendor come here, great to know you care enough to join up.

I was wondering if your testing rig was set up as per the mfg recommendations, glad to see that cleared up, thanks.

LOVE the music choice:D

By any chance, are you a RV pilot???
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,
I've always loved the look of the RV and have heard nothing but good things. At some point I'd like to build one, they look very fun to fly.

Until I get some more spare time and a little extra cash, i'll be flying the 172...

-Adam
 
When We were forced to keep our cubs outside we used nothing but ratcheting straps, then I was positive they would never come loose and with that much wing a slight wing could move it around.

-david



Ron Lee said:
Comments have been made that the ropes need to be tight. Given that making them tight and able to remain tight may not be typical for most folks like me, would a ratcheting strap make more sense?
Click to expand...
 
Sid Lambert said:
I walked the weckage after they piled it all up near our camp-site. I saw broken claws and some with just the claw style nails (gutter nail) just holding one of the Husky products down. I honestly didn't see any of the screw types sitting around the planes but that didn't mean they were not used.
Click to expand...

The Zenith plane that landed on top of the Eclipse Jet had the screw type tie down. You can see it dangling in the wreckage. But, just about 25 feet away, Van's RV12 was tied down with the same screw type tie down & survived. Bad real estate. The F1 touched down, it was unforgiving.
 
I appreciate your openness and clarification. This at first glance looked like a classic marketing trick. Glad you cleared that up! Great to see all the extra info regarding this on the website. This will prevent confusion and quick judgements like I made earlier. I appologize!

stormforcetds said:
Hi Guys,
I'm the co-owner of the Storm Force Aircraft Tie Down company. I have to say that respectfully, both The Claw and FlyTies suggest that you tie your aircraft down at a 90 degree angle using their product. (which isn't what the faa suggests)

We were in fact being fair by testing their product exactly how they suggest you use it (at a 90 degree angle.) In fact: testing both the Claw and FlyTies at a 45 degree angle yielded a worse result. The Claw and FlyTies were much weaker at a 45 degree angle. The Claw even snaps (breaks) at 170lbs from being tied at a 45.

So really, and again with respect, we were actually giving the competition some slack by showing their products in our video at a 90 degree angle. Comparing apples to apples the storm force tie down is even stronger.

I understand I have a bias view, but I really stand behind our product, and all of our tests, no matter at a 45 or 90 degree angle, concluded that the Storm Force Tie Down is indeed stronger.

I hope I have shed some light to the situation, and if anyone has any questions, please feel free to email me directly: [email protected]

And don't forget to checkout the website! :) www.StormForceTieDowns.com

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
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Walt said:
All this carnage witnessed and SnF has me a bit concerned now so I'm researching which is really the best tie down? I currently have a fly-ties but thinking I may need something better. With OshKosh right around the corner I am wondering is there a better tie down than what I currently own? I saw the "Storm Force" and am considering purchasing it. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

In my experience, I would have to say that the best tie down, would be a large concrete building, with lots of re-bar!!!!!!!:D
 
Interesting discussion, especially about keeping the tie-downs tight and doing both wings and the tail. When I was in the Navy, we were using chains and padeyes set in concrete, but if we had to leave a plane out and a bad storm was expected, we tied down onewing. The theory was that the airplane would weathervane and always be facing into the wind. (We did have plenty of ramp space so as long as the one tiedown held, no contact would occur.)
 
ratcheting straps

lots of rope guys scoff at the ratchet, and with good reason.
I bought the biggest ones I could find for home base ( 2" webbing) average wind speed 3 kts, but carry lighter 1 1/2" ones for travel ( go figure!)

My point is that most of these are made 'offshore' from scrap metal, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them fail at a pretty low strain. Ditto the webbing, which you see rated at 12,000 lbs or some other ultimate load, but no-where is there proof of this rating!
Much less are they going to be that strong after a few years in the sun, mildew, fraying from use etc.
I guess I just use the ratchets as I don't feel I have the room to do a proper job of the classic marine rope & loop method many of our 'classic' pilots swear by.:)
I also want to be able to tell the insurance co. that I used a big fat industrial tow-truck sized tie-down, rather than tell them, a 3/8" rope with no knot!. ( somehow I just don't think they'd understand how it realy works).

.....another point, the old steel loops in the ground that we attach all this to....just how strong are they now. after 20 years in the water, salt, snow etc.
 
jthocker said:
In my experience, I would have to say that the best tie down, would be a large concrete building, with lots of re-bar!!!!!!!:D
Click to expand...

Several of the planes in the HBC that were totaled, we only 50 yards from lots of concrete ramp space (which later became the SnF salvage yard). In hind site, it would have been best to move them there. Going forward, I won't rely on any soft-field tie-down when thunderstorms are forecasted. If I cant find hard points, I'll relocate to another airport.
 
I wanted to give my first hand experience with the events at Sun n Fun. All of this discussion on tie-downs is interesting but I have to say in the area I was in, no particular tie-down design was going to make a difference that day. The soil in the area where my plane was tied down was like quick sand. I got to my plane within 15-30 minutes after the winds died down. It was still raining, there was at least 4-6 inches of standing water on the ground and the soil was like muck at the bottom of a farm pond. It was ridiculous to think that kind of soil would hold anything that was placed into it.

There was an RV-8 parked next to me to the north that was using the claw. His tie-downs fared no better than mine did which were a screw in type. The Rocket next to me to the south did not move even though his tie-downs were of the same caliber. The airplane behind me did not move and many others as well did not move. It is the nature of the beast when examining tornado damage that something can seem utterly untouched that is just feet away from something else that was totally destroyed. That was exactly what happened last Thursday at Sun n Fun.

I really appreciate the various posts from those of you who have techniques to share on how best to tie-down our planes. I am learning tons from all of you.
 
Sand Sucks.

To add to the data pool... Both of our Jabirus were tied with foot-long stakes (the type you rent at Oshkosh). The one that survived was parked into the wind. The one that flipped was parked with what turned out to be a quartering tailwind, and the whole booth was nothing but soft wet sand. I can't imagine what would have happened if the reported second line of storms had hit us--With all that newly saturated sand, the carnage would have been much worse.

Oshkosh gives tiedowns a much better chance because the ground is mostly hard dirt and clay. If someone can invent a storm-proof sand anchor (that doesn't involve a cement truck), they will make a killing between now and next year's Sun n Fun!
 
KatieB

I Katie good to see you made it home ok. We did also. We met you as we where leaving Moultrie. We landed in a 40 degree crosswind 16 gusting to 24. Neat to meet people that you only know on the net.
 
Adam, how much does your bag o' goodies weigh? When I left on Saturday, I just wiggled my screw ins a couple of times and yanked em out of the sand. I would not have stood a chance Thursday. Never again. I'll take you up on your $10.00 offer.
 
Storm Force Tie Downs

N130PM said:
Adam, how much does your bag o' goodies weigh? When I left on Saturday, I just wiggled my screw ins a couple of times and yanked em out of the sand. I would not have stood a chance Thursday. Never again. I'll take you up on your $10.00 offer.
Click to expand...

The Storm Force Tie Down kit weighs in at 8 1/2 lbs. That includes the hammer, 3 tie downs, 3 - 10ft, 1/2", braided polyester ropes, 12 - 12" steel spikes and the bag.

By the way, thanks for all the feedback. We're listening!

Adam
 
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