VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics



Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-4
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 05-17-2008, 06:29 AM
Tony Spicer Tony Spicer is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 449
Default Flight review in single place aircraft?

Tom,

Not having much faith in my ability to decipher FAA regs, I contacted EAA and FAA early in the construction of my RV-3. Here are the responses:

"After some research and speaking with 2 operations inspectors I have an answer for you. In order to do your BFR your must have an aircraft in which you can be observed (2 person or better). You would not be able to do your BFR in the RV-3 with the CFI observing from the ground." Rick Litka, Greensboro FSDO, 336 662-1069.

This from Joe Norris at EAA:

"The reg used to allow flight reviews to be observed from the ground, but when the reg was changed to specifically include one hour of "flight instruction" this option went away."

I then asked Joe who's arse would be on the line if it were done from the ground.

"On the question of who's arse..., the answer is BOTH. The pilot is flying without a valid flight review, and the instructor signed a flight review without performing it in accordance with the reg."

Fearing Falcon Insurance more than the FAA, I did my last flight review in a J-3.

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-17-2008, 07:08 AM
rv699jb rv699jb is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 45
Default Flight Reviews

Like many things that involve "regulations", there are many opinions. Many times, things are worked through, and assumed to be done correctly, because no one said otherwise. If I were to give a flight review from the ground, or give a flight review in a Bonanza with throw-over controls, and sign the person off, who would ever question it, barring an accident etc.? The bottom line is both of the above conditions are not legal for a CFI to give a review under. It has been quite a few years since reviews have been legal in throw over yoke airplanes or single seats. There is presently a waiver (through the FAA) CFI's can apply for to instruct in throw over yoke aircrart. There are quite a few CFI's that have applied for and received this waiver. If you are interested in the details, look at American Beechcraft Societie's website. The FAA presently does not require dual brakes for the CFI, but all other controls must be present for "instruction". Since a flight review is considered "instruction", the controls must be in place. Finding someone who doesn't know the rules and will give you the review is possible, but why? Remember, you can't flunk a flight review! Go take it correctly and enjoy the experience with an open mind and try to pick up some tips.

Jim Baker
CFI-IA
RV-6
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-17-2008, 11:31 AM
frankh's Avatar
frankh frankh is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Corvallis Oregon
Posts: 3,546
Default Here's how I do it

Show your CFII some acro manouvers in his new RV7a...Once he can do a hammerhead (which were a little weired doing from the right seat) he'll do anything for ya...

As I only have a LH throttle mine sat thru my whole IFR training with nothing to play with..and (smewhat miraculously) he's still alive!...

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-17-2008, 04:24 PM
RVG8tor's Avatar
RVG8tor RVG8tor is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 1,141
Default Chase Ship

In the AF we give check rides all the time, tactical and instrument, with the evaluator in a chase ship. They will chase you through the maneuvers and approaches to include the overhead pattern. So the question is can a CFI if in a comparable aircraft give a flight review while observing from another aircraft? Just food for thought. Formation work is popular in the RV world, it would seem that this might be the perfect option for the RV-3 boys to get a flight review and some formation work as well.

Cheers
__________________
Mike "Nemo" Elliott
RV-8A (First Flight 12-12-12!)
Olympia, WA
N800ME
www.mykitlog.com/rvg8tor
http://www.youtube.com/user/rvg8tor?feature=mhee
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-18-2008, 09:15 AM
BruceMe's Avatar
BruceMe BruceMe is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankh View Post
Show your CFII some acro manouvers in his new RV7a...Once he can do a hammerhead (which were a little weired doing from the right seat) he'll do anything for ya...

As I only have a LH throttle mine sat thru my whole IFR training with nothing to play with..and (smewhat miraculously) he's still alive!...

Frank
I donno, as a cfi, I think I would only _REALLY_ feel confident in YOUR flying ability if you can demonstrate an avalanche, followed by a crisp 4-pt roll, then into an inverted half-cuban. Maybe then
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-18-2008, 09:30 AM
frankh's Avatar
frankh frankh is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Corvallis Oregon
Posts: 3,546
Default Well thanks Bruce!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceMe View Post
I donno, as a cfi, I think I would only _REALLY_ feel confident in YOUR flying ability if you can demonstrate an avalanche, followed by a crisp 4-pt roll, then into an inverted half-cuban. Maybe then
After you've looked at my youtube acro vids, can you sign my logbook?..

Oh..you want me to do that from YOUR right seat...that might be a litle tricky for me..

Frank
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-29-2008, 06:43 PM
SportAvServ SportAvServ is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ione, California
Posts: 179
Default Flight Review

FAR 61.45 e (3)



(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.

Known of this for years, as a CFI I can observe from the ground.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-29-2008, 09:55 PM
Tom May Tom May is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Gold Hill, NC
Posts: 63
Default Flight Review

Since my last posting I have looked up the regulation (FAR 61.45 e (3)) and have talked to three FAA Inspectors from two FSDO. Two agreed with me and one did not. When I ask the one who did not to look at FAR 61.45 e (3) he then said maybe you are correct. Anyway here is FAR 61.45 e (3):
(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.
Sooooo it is up to the CFI.
Tom CFII
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-29-2008, 10:11 PM
rv699jb rv699jb is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 45
Default Flight review/FAR 61.45

A CFI is not an "examiner". A Flight Review is not a "Practical test", it is instruction....

Jim Baker
CFI-IA
RV-6
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-30-2008, 02:43 PM
rv699jb rv699jb is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 45
Default Flight review/single controls

This was copied off the Beechcraft Societies site. Many have e-mailed me asking to clarify, as they could not access the site being non-members. The rules are pretty clear, flight reviews can not be legally given unless the plane is equipt with dual controls. This will carry over to RV's that don't have dual controls also, with more emphasis on tandem aircraft which don't leave much room for interpretation of whether the controls can be reached by the second pilot. Also, this explains that there is a difference between the intent of the FAR's on "examiners" and "CFI's", and what they can and can't do legally. Hope this clears up some of the confussion. Bottom line is Flight training, other than instrument, as well as Flight reviews are not legal in throw over yoke aircraft or RV's not equipt with dual controls. Practical tests "may" be given if the "examiner" agrees to it.
Jim Baker
CFI-IA
RV-6

__

Instruction in Single Control Airplanes


Flight Instruction in Single-Control Beechcraft

updated 7/19/2007


ABS frequently gets questions about the legality of flight instruction in airplanes with a single control yoke. Here’s the applicable Federal Air Regulation, with emphasis added:
91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft…that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons when—

(1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and

(2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.



FAA interpretation, enforcement action and some insurance claims history consistently rule that a Flight Review as required in 61.56 consists of “flight instruction,” and therefore dual flight controls must be installed. There is no room for interpretation requiring dual controls for any other instruction not specifically limited to “instrument” instruction, for example, instruction toward currency requirements, high-performance and/or complex endorsements, pilot certificates or ratings, and insurance-mandated checkout instruction (for purposes of meeting insurance underwriters’ policy stipulations).



Single-Control Exemptions

Confirming this interpretation, the FAA provides for exemptions to FAR 91.109(a) permitting flight instruction in single-control airplanes under certain circumstances. Exemptions require both pilot and instructor be qualified to act as pilot-in-command, precluding some types of training, including initial checkouts if the pilot receiving instruction does not already have his/her Complex and High Performance endorsements.

ABS’ training partner BPPP, Inc. holds an exemption that allows instruction in single-control single and multiengine Beechcraft, but only when such training is done in a regularly scheduled BPPP event (see www.bppp.org). BPPP's exemption is also subject to the requirement that both student and instructor be qualified to act as PIC.



A few individual instructors have successfully petitioned the FAA for single-control exemptions valid for instruction in single-control airplanes outside of BPPP events. Instructors wishing a single-control exemption must apply to the FAA at this address:

Petition for Exemption
Rules Docket (AGC-10)
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591




There is a sample exemption application published in the Federal Register.



Success in obtaining an exemption seems to hinge on the instructor’s experience in Beech aircraft and his/her personal relationship with their local FSDO. In some cases these exemptions are valid in multiengine airplanes, in others it is restricted to single-engine aircraft.


Instructors Holding Exemptions, and How to Find Them

CFIs holding exemptions to conduct single-yoke training are encouraged to post contact information in the Flight Instructors conference area on the Hangar Flying bulletin board, in the Members Only section of www.bonanza.org. Be certain to indicate you have an exemption to provide single-yoke instruction, whether it permits instruction in single- and/or multiengine Beechcraft, and the expiration date of your current exemption.

Pilots seeking instruction: Please read the "Important: About This Flight Instructor List" before choosing a flight instructor who has posted his or her information in Hangar Flying.



FAA Practical Tests (checkrides) in Single-Control Airplanes (not to include instruction or Flight Reviews)

FAR 61.45(e) gives individual pilot examiners authority to decide whether they wish to conduct practical tests in single-control airplanes, under these conditions:

(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.

Ironically, FAR 91.109(a) permits instrument flight instruction in single-control airplanes, but FAR 61.45(e) prohibits an instrument pilot checkride in that same airplane. ABS is attempting to get a clarification from the FAA concerning this contradiction.



Rental Yokes

Several facilities provide dual yoke rental services. A rental yoke may be shipped to an aircraft owner and quickly installed by a certificated mechanic (a mechanic’s logbook endorsement is required). BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL to check all control movement, trim operation and the proper function of push-to-talk, autopilot disconnect and any other yoke-mounted switches after installing a dual yoke and again when re-installing the single yoke.



Although there may be others, ABS knows of the following dual control rental sources. Contact each for price and availability.



Air-Mech 888-282-9010
CruiseAir 760-789-8020
Cygnet 805-528-2376
Dave Monte 775-792-5282
Garhawk 800-686-9887
Lawson Barber 559-675-0183
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:33 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.