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O-320 lean rear cylinders Lycoming insert OS-5372-1

Bob_pipedream

Active Member
Hi all,

Sorry to be creating so many threads, but just found some more info online - from the Supercub guys.

It seems that there was a Lycoming SB258 (which I having trouble finding) that specified need to swap out the 10-3678-12 for a 10-3678-32 carb. But due to difference in throat diameter - a tapered insert needs to be put in the sump riser.

My sump hole diameter is about 2 1/4", but the carb throat diameter is much less at 1 15/16" creating a step. This according to one post causes the rear cylinders to run lean (which just happens to be the issue I have).

The solution is apparently this insert:

OS-5372-1 Textron Lycoming SLEEVE INSERT $56.48 EA
the dowel pin that holds it in is
STD 798 and the gasket is 66224


Which smooths the transition from carb to sump. This may also mean that I do not have to drill the jet - not sure.

Any ideas everyone - could it be that loads of people with O-320s from Superior are running around with this issue and lean rear cylinders?
 
Hi Gerald,

Will do, have just ordered the part and I suspect that a lot of Superior O-320s are running around without this insert which was in a Lycoming service Bulletin SB258 back in 1959 stating that the A2 sump should not be used with the 10-3678-32 carb... Anyway as soon as I have the part and have tested it all, I will post back here again with the results.
 
The solution at last

Hi all,

Well I thought I had better stick this on my posts so that anyone else suffering similar issues of high rear cylinders EGTs Low front cylinder EGTs and rough running on an O-320 will have the final answer.

As mentioned earlier, I found that my new Superior O-320 has been fitted (as have all Superior O-320s) with an O-360 sump. These are interchangeable however the O-360 sump has a wider diameter sump throat diameter to match the wider diameter carb. This creates a step after the carb of about 1/8 - 3/16.

Lycoming service bulletin SB258 was printed in 1959 to address rough running in Piper Aircraft. They had found that the 10-3678-32 carb (and I think all O-320 carbs of the MA-4SPA type as they will all have this step) should not be fitted to the tapered riser sump (or O-360 sump) as there would be a step after the carb that could cause, rough operation, bad mixture distribution and lean the rear cylinders. The solution is easy and is simply an insert that converts the taper into a straight riser of same diameter as the carb.

This is exactly what I had and I had tried all the other things such as timing, plugs etc.

So I had an insert made as per the SB258. Cost to have the part made is minimal ? I got some 60mm external diameter by 5 mm wall thickness aluminium tube off of Ebay and a local engineer turned it up in about 20 minutes. I got the length of the insert which is not in the SB from the engine and it is 18.9mm ? I also had an additional small 2mm x 53mm diameter step machined into the wider end so that it would locate into the Vans throttle bracket that is clamped between carb and sump (so overall length is 20.9mm).

I fitted it yesterday and took off. The difference is amazing and far beyond what I expected. It has not only cured the rough running, narrowed the EGT spread and improved performance ? it has also made her feel almost turbine smooth. At last I have an unqualified RV grin.

I did not drill the jet or do any other mods other than cleaning the flashing out of the primary venture.

So if you have a Superior O-320 (or any O-320 for that matter, it may be a good idea to verify your sump part numbers just in case someone has put the O-360 sump on there) with a MA-4SPA carb, then you WILL be requiring this insert.

Next weekend I will record more EGT data, but even at worst condition, there was only 80 degree spread which would easily lean out (it was up to 180 before). I can also now use full mixture without chugging, coughing etc.

So perhaps the ?poor mixture distribution? reputation of the O-320 is actually more to do with some engines not having the right sump/carb combo in the beginning?
 
Bob,

Thanks for unearthing this information.

I have an ECI 0-320 but it does have a Superior sump and as you correctly point out it actually has the 0-360 sump (part # SL 78915). I have got a copy of Lycoming SB 258 and can see the dimensions of the insert, however I have examined the inlet area and throat on my sump and I can't see how it would fit as my sump has a different profile to that of the insert shown on SB 258.

I have the same step at the opening so the thick end of the insert at 2.38" OD would fit correctly but after the opening, my sump tapers to a larger diameter than the 1.94" shown on the SB. I don't have an inside micrometer for a really accurate measure but instead of 1.94" the throat in my sump tapers in from the 2.38" to about 2.1"
This sort of makes some sense to me as I would have expected that the internal diameter for the 0-360 sump would be larger than the 1.94" diameter for the smaller 0-320.
So I am a bit confused how you got the insert to fit if you made it to the same dimensions shown on SB 258.

My engine runs well but the cylinder and EGT temps could be more even in the cruise so I plan to try out the insert and get one made to fit my sump but it would need to be be a slightly different shape to that shown on the SB.

Any thoughts?

Fin
9A
 
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Confused

Bob

Your post on 11-15 said you ordered the part for this fix. But in your later post it sounds as if you had to have it machined. Was there a problem with the part you ordered? I have a Superior O-320 and have always had extra hot CHTs in the rear cylinders.

Paul
RV-9A with Superior O-320
 
Sump part number?

Hi could someone kindly tell me where on my O-320 (O-360?) sump its part number is located - I have been hunting!

I do suffer higher EGTs on the rear cylinders so this thread suggests a possible cure .....
 
Sump Part Number Location

My sump number was on the bottom toward the back under the bracket that goes between the carb and the sump. I made a sleeve, installed it and have flown about three times. Haven't seen any improvement in the low altitude flying I've been doing. My hot EGT is still about 300 degrees hotter that my coolest one when full rich. As I lean out the two cooler EGTs move up to close to the temp of the Hot two. Haven't done much testing yet however.


Paul
 
how can the sumps get mixed?

So I will have to take off the carb and throttle bracket to see the part number on the sump .... :(

Since the engine data plate is fixed to the sump, how would the wrong sump be fitted to an engine?
 
Lycoming SB 258 ?

I have trouble finding Lycoming SB 258, it is not on Lycoming's website :mad:. Any help ?

thanks Pit
 
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sump riser

I had a local guy at HAO make a sump riser (SB258) for my Superior O-320 because I had a rough engine and high rear cylinder head temps (400F) on my two flights that I was not satisfied with. My front cylinders were 325F. I added a lip to the sump riser to account for the throttle bracket and gasket offset to minimize abrupt steps in the riser from the carb. I also polished some flash from the carb vanes. I will have MT prop gov SB (prop surging issue), gear fairings and wheel pants and D100 software update, and sump riser for the next flight. I'll report on engine response. I have a copy of SB258 I can send you. Note: I followed Bob's idea and purchased the thick walled alum tubing from England to make the riser.
 
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For those chasing a copy of Lycoming SB258, a gentleman on a Piper forum has posted a clear copy HERE in *.PDF format.

If it doesn't work, PM me and I'll try to upload my copy.
 
follow-up

test flight resulted in smooth engine operation with sump riser insert installed. after leaning slightly the CHTs are within 25F and EGT are within 150F. thumbs up for the sump riser insert for Superior O-320.

3000 ft, 24 sq, 140 kt indicated with wheel pants installed. service bulletin F (original C model) applied to MT prop gov resulted in good control of prop speed.

update1, I left the pattern this afternoon (my 4th flight) for a 75 mile stretch, 25 sq, 146 kt indicated, 3500 ft. CHTs within 10F after leveling and stabilizing (378 to 388F). engine smooth. I noticed the biggest improvement with the insert when the engine is full rich. no coughing or chugging. this bird can fly.

update2, 5th flight, same 75 mile stretch (150 round trip), 24 sq, 141 kt indicated, 3500 ft, total time on engine 4.2, CHT 1) 395F, 2) 384F, 3) 384F, 4) 392F. EGTs 1273F to 1327F spread. oil temp 180F.

update3, 6th flight, same 75 mile stretch, 25 sq, 146 kt indicated, 3500 ft, total time on engine 5.5, about the same EGT and CHT as update2, oil temp 191F. Ground speed with a slight tailwind 166 kt. I think I'm going to need an intervention, this is too much fun. I'm playing tennis tomorrow. No flying.

update4, 11 hrs total on engine, same 75 mile stretch, 23 sq, 136 kt indicated, 3500 ft, EGT and CHT dropping, OAT on ground 70F, 1) 377F, 2) 355F 3) 377F 4)378F CHT adjusted with 40F all. oil temp 179F.

update5, 16.3 hrs total on engine, same 75 stretch, 22 mp, 2350 rpm, 4500 ft. 134 kt indicated, EGT 1) 388F, 2) 366F 3) 368F, 4) 366F, CHT within 50F all, oil temp 191F. I trimmed cylinder 1 fwd. baffle tonight after the flight. Will post results. Heavy right wing corrected by flap adjustment, left flap adjusted up. This afternoon was the first flight where my hand wasn't tired holding left input, an ah hah moment. very nice finger tip control. OAT on ground 26C. 7.5 gph.

update6, 17.6 hrs total on engine, same 75 stretch, 22 mp, 2350 rpm, 6500 ft, 134 kt indicated, TAS 150 kt, EGT 1) 355F, 2)352F 3)354F 4)356F. oil temp = 171F. OAT on ground 10C. flies hands off for at least a minute maximum at criuse. aileron trim disconnected. left aileron is low, right aileron is high. Not sure what to do about that. Left wingtip is low since I initially aligned it with the left aileron and flap (which was low).

update7, 19.1 hrs total on engine, same 75 mile stretch, power off stalls, OAT on ground 12C, at 7500 ft alt 10C. no flap 51 kt buffet and almost no altitude loss, full flap 41 kt and abrupt drop but only lost about 100 ft. no wing drop. amazing. first touch and go. climb directly back to 7500 ft. max oil temp during climb 191F. descent to TPA at 160 TAS. controller asked what kind of plane is that? flies hands off, no aileron trim installed. I am impressed by this airplane. Wow!

update8, 20.2 hrs total on engine, power off stalls 1/2 fuel and full flap 40kt, power off stalls 1/2 fuel and no flap 51kt, power on stalls 50kt and 35-37 degree alpha - bounces around the stall - engine CHT reached 405F and oil temp 199F at 6000 ft. dive to Vne 182 kt TAS no issues. for what it's worth, my elevators are nose heavy (no paint), wind-up turns max g = 2.6. post flight inspection, pilot side stick is not as tight as it used to be. I inspected and found the 1/4 inch play in the fwd to aft sick motion to be from the stick hinge/ bushing/bolt. no other flight control play was found. I suppose I can say my sticks are not as tight as they used to be. OAT on ground 12C.

update9, 21.3 hrs total, manual spring aileron trim installed, aileron tube to fuse air seals installed, fuel vent b-nut tightened, structural and control linkage inspection completed - no issues, I flew 30 miles without touching the stick or elevator trim but just using aileron trim, aircraft oscillated between 4550 ft and 4450 ft at 134 kt indicated, AVmap GPS output corrected by reworking the AVmap i/o serial connector, Dynon D100 now switches automatically from SL-30 to AVmap GPS by toggle switch on panel. CHT at cruise 1)366F 2)362F 3) 363F 4)366F. oil temp = 191F. max CHT on climb out = 384F. OAT on ground 21C.

update10, 24.4 hr total, time for an oil change to Phillips x/c 20/50 and camguard. temperatures are forecast to drop in Cincinnati on Wed. to 39F for the low. AOA calibration completed. my first attempt at AOA calibration on the previous flight was not successful so I reread the manual and it worked fine on the second attempt. I can't say enough about this airplane. I'm enjoying each flight more and more, building confidence. best glide testing showed a 10:1 L/D at 85 kts. maybe I can do better at a slightly slower speed but for now my eye is calibrated for a best glide visual angle and that's good to have.

update11, 25.9 hr total, oil pressure upon start at idle power decreased from 63 psi with the previous 100W mineral oil to 44 psi with 20/50W oil just filled. at 1700 rpm upon ground run up the oil pressure = 60 psi. after the oil temperature reached 160F in flight the oil pressure = 63 psi, same as with mineral oil. I kept a close eye on the oil pressure since this is the first oil change I had completed. I worked on leaning the engine more and see some benefits. so now the only time I set full rich is for a check at run up, takeoff, initial climb and short final. fuel burn on the past 3.2 hr calculated by the hobbs = 6.9 gph. CHT at cruise within 2F (354F-356F) and EGT within 50F for all cylinders. oil temp 181F. OAT in flight = 11C. this was the same 75 mile stretch, touch and go, then return and shot an ILS approach. the archer antenna was not as smooth receiving the ILS approach signal as it is steady with a VOR. I'm not sure why the difference other than it is signal strength or the antenna. just another data point to add to the pile.

update12, 31.6 hr total, temperatures are colder, 5C at 4500 ft, oil temp only reached 166F, CHT within 5F, EGT within 50F 1300F +/- 25F, 80 deg crosswind at 10 kt testing was fine (5 touch and go) , I think I could so 15 kt crosswind if required. I noted in my previous update that the ILS with archer antenna was poor but now also realize my VOR reception is lower than before, the only modification that I can think of that could have affected the reception was to install the aileron tube to fuse boot and that I moved the coax connector slightly in fitting it. I may have a factor there, a disconnect coax or touching one of the other coax connectors. I will pull the seat pan and investigate and report in a future update. engine performance is excellent. no oil loss after oil change 6 hr ago that I can measure. I cut the filter and inspected with only a few minor alum. chips. nothing significant. WW200RV prop impresses me with it's minimal vibration compared to other aircraft I have flown. also, to note, I did a 2150 ft per minute takeoff climb with 10 gallons in the right tank (max EGT 384F) - no issues and then ran the tank to minimum 3.5 gal in level flight. I drained the tank to measure the 3.5 gal remaining. of the testing so far, minimum fuel is my least favorite.

update13, 35 hr total on engine, at 8500ft altitude oil temp = 140F, OAt at 8500 ft = -7C, minimum fuel testing down to 1 gal in left tank doing figure 8s over the airport. drained tank to confirm 1 gal remaining. I recalibrated fuel tanks after this test. I covered the oil cooler with tape at the inlet side to get the oil temps up.

update14, 40 hr total, phase 1 complete, added sump preheater, covered the oil cooler with tape (approx 75% coverage to achieve 172F on high altitude cruise at 10500 ft), gross weight testing completed - noted slightly more power needed during landings. I'm very pleased with this aircraft.

update15, 42 hr total, I took my wife for a ride and let her fly for about an hour. she liked it.
 
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Carb to sump mismatch

Hitting up an old thread here. After the overhaul, my mixture distribution is different than before the O/H, so I pulled the carb today to take a look. Here is what I found - not sure it is the same problem in this thread or even "a" problem, but it would cause a disturbance in the force.....er...airflow to the sump and intake tubes.

This is a 2005 Vintage ECI O-320 D1A with a 10-5217 carb

Not even close to scale, but hopefully tells the story:

ADCreHeX1JpXSeYZ36h8ORXv3TLe2W_JGsQqpScczkZmNtCodw6jk-7X18OF8BxDRWQUphHk7I0RnyVhkAwMJq-ki5iOusi3Q1X0AKscbvVwGb8vlShFtCrtHkQTKtkbO5TBCcG8vQyDVrabl3zxVk51hCnC_A=w1000



Diff dimensions than the SB, but a similar problem (note that 1.93 and 2.40 are the same as 1.94 and 2.38 - I have a cheap caliper)

From the SB

ADCreHcxPAJdGqqqRKZhYe93a9H3fJtJUYkLDZv4FqzKHneCh_R2oOzMDT7bLtzu2eIguOBIIeW9wm08VEkrHWiJUt70UN_auxQGThrA0bBtvgn0vLvNOd8XnPxbvZ7yOa6x6-qGTiOLcArjeaUvVOD7z6do1g=w976



Is this worth chasing to smooth the airflow? - new gaskets are not hard, making a thin walled adapter sleeve might be harder.


Thanks for any thoughts.
 
Pete, I've had a similar insert in the sump throat of my Titan O-340 since it was almost new.

The first few hours with it revealed a BIG disparity in EGTs between cylinders and some crummy running on decent. After some investigation and communication with the folks at ECI Titan (before the Continental buyout), they sent me this insert which helped quite a bit. I still have a disparity between the front two cylinders and the back two, which I can control by slightly varying the throttle position.

For example, at full throttle cylinders 1&2 are about 100-degF cooler on EGT than cylinders 3&4. Pull the throttle back about 3/4" and 1&2 cool off to match 3&4 with no perceptible change in power. At cruise when I pull the throttle back even more and lean for economy, 3&4 run about 100-deg hotter than 1&2.

There's never any roughness though, now that the insert is in place. You don't mention whether there are any symptoms that you find bothersome, but if you do, an insert might help and it might not.
 
k
Hitting up an old thread here. After the overhaul, my mixture distribution is different than before the O/H, so I pulled the carb today to take a look. Here is what I found - not sure it is the same problem in this thread or even "a" problem, but it would cause a disturbance in the force.....er...airflow to the sump and intake tubes.

This is a 2005 Vintage ECI O-320 D1A with a 10-5217 carb

Not even close to scale, but hopefully tells the story:

ADCreHeX1JpXSeYZ36h8ORXv3TLe2W_JGsQqpScczkZmNtCodw6jk-7X18OF8BxDRWQUphHk7I0RnyVhkAwMJq-ki5iOusi3Q1X0AKscbvVwGb8vlShFtCrtHkQTKtkbO5TBCcG8vQyDVrabl3zxVk51hCnC_A=w1000



Diff dimensions than the SB, but a similar problem (note that 1.93 and 2.40 are the same as 1.94 and 2.38 - I have a cheap caliper)

From the SB

ADCreHcxPAJdGqqqRKZhYe93a9H3fJtJUYkLDZv4FqzKHneCh_R2oOzMDT7bLtzu2eIguOBIIeW9wm08VEkrHWiJUt70UN_auxQGThrA0bBtvgn0vLvNOd8XnPxbvZ7yOa6x6-qGTiOLcArjeaUvVOD7z6do1g=w976



Is this worth chasing to smooth the airflow? - new gaskets are not hard, making a thin walled adapter sleeve might be harder.


Thanks for any thoughts.

That taper insert is for the older sumps that had 2.40 IDs. That spacer won't fit in your 2.10 sump. You could make a slight taper relief on your carb to match the hole, but I believe the standard is the 1.93 to 2.10 interface and a small to large step won't create much turbulence. Probably a larger issues is slop in the bracket bolt holes. Any slop at all will prevent the hole from centering and create a larger lip on one side, creating turbulence. Take a look at how the bracket lays against both the carb and the sump.
 
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