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Help - High oil temps

Bruce

Bruce

Well Known Member
Friend
ECi--IO-360
James Cowl and Plenum
SW 8406 cooler
Vetterman 4 pipe
Hartzell M hub 7497

OIL TEMP 230*
WOT
OAT 93*
IN 30 Minutes
CHT's 295-324
EGT 1200
OP 75

I need some help with this set up and if someone is flying the same
setup or close please jump in.
Moved the cooler to #4------------------no effect
With and without louvers ----------------no effect
wrapped exhaust pipes around sump------no effect
Checked all senders and gauges
Cut off 2 1/2 inches off lower cowl-------no effect
Checked and replaced Verni

It has flown at 9500' and had 225* at 23 sq.
There is 15 hours on the engine and flying slow to
put time on the engine but at the end of the rope
when trying to fly full power.

Any help would be appreciated.

See ya in OSH by land or sea.
 
Data, but little help

My setup is similar except for the prop. My cooler is the cheapy that came with the FWF kit. Oil temps are always low; I have a hard time getting them to 180 even in Michigan summer. Is your "vernatherm" working ok? Your CHT's and EGT look OK. Checked the oil temp gauge?
 
A little too early to tell.. with 15 hrs that engine's still new.. I wouldn't do anything before hitting about 50 hours at least.

However, one thing you could do now.. put it LOP and watch those temps drop. works every time.
 
Bruce -

Two questions for you:

1. Which James cowl are you running? (full size or the shorty?)
2. Is your cooler right up against #4 or is it on the engine mount or firewall?

Let me know these two things and I may have some research that will help...

- Peter
 
I've got the same setup as you (except for the prop). 0-360 ECI kit, SJ shorty cowl & Plenum, the oil cooler that came with the FWF kit (SW?), catto prop.

My oil temps are almost exactly the same as yours. I flew 2 hours away this weekend and had the oil cooler shutter (from Vans) installed, but wide open. The OAT was 90 degrees and my oil temp got up to 234 at one point! CHTs were almost to 400.

I removed the oil cooler shutter and flew home the following day. Same OAT, but my oil temp never went over 229...mostly stayed around 227. Apparently, removing it did help a little, but not much. My CHT's on the 2nd flight went over 400 (barely) a few times, but I was running lean, where the prior day I was full rich (I thought it'd help the temps come down).
 
More info

Would really like reports from someone with an ECI engine. I see LostPilot28 with an ECI having similar issues. I've been helping Boomer with this. H. Evans seems to be running a Superior engine according to his web site and is reporting low temps. Everyone I know locally with Superior engines has low oil temps, myself included. We have 3 and all run very low (160-170 range on 90 degree ambient).

One problem a buddy had with an ECI engine and high oil temps turned out to be from piston skirt squirters. These have since been removed and that issue is fixed on that airplane. Not the problem in this case however as Boomer has no piston squirters installed.

The ECI engine/Sam James cowl and plenum/Vetterman 4 pipe combination is something no one else locally has, and someone with that EXACT combination and has normal oil temps in the under 200 range can hopefully provide the answer.

The strange thing in this is that the CHT's are in the low 300 range, so temps shouldn't be coming from ignition issues or cooling fin air flow issues.

What is heating the oil and not the CHT's? :confused:

The 4 pipe exhaust really seems to block exit air on this -A model (imagine the top 2 pipes not being there), yet there is sufficient cooling for the cylinders. A phone call to Vetterman says this is not the issue. See here for similar pic:

exhaust.jpg
 
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Bruce said:
ECi--IO-360
James Cowl and Plenum
SW 8406 cooler
Vetterman 4 pipe
Hartzell M hub 7497

OIL TEMP 230*
WOT
OAT 93*
IN 30 Minutes
CHT's 295-324
EGT 1200
OP 75

I need some help with this set up and if someone is flying the same
setup or close please jump in.

Moved the cooler to #4------------------no effect

Any help would be appreciated.

See ya in OSH by land or sea.
Click to expand...

One observation and one question.

First, the observation - A disproportionate number of people with the James cowl seem to have cooling problems.

Second, the question: How large is the opening in your baffles, and can you provide a picture of the hole?

Increasing the size of that opening was what eventually reduced my oil temps (which I fought for 6 months or a year).
 
hecilopter said:
Would really like reports from someone with an ECI engine. I see LostPilot28 with an ECI having similar issues. I've been helping Boomer with this. H. Evans seems to be running a Superior engine according to his web site and is reporting low temps. Everyone I know locally with Superior engines has low oil temps, myself included. We have 3 and all run very low (160-170 range on 90 degree ambient).
Click to expand...

I was discussing this topic today with a friend who has a Superior in his 9A. Like my Lycoming, he doesn't have high oil temps either. We both have the Van's oil cooler shutter. He flew his on Saturday with ambient temps in the mid 90's. His oil temps were in the 185 to 190 range. My Lyc has been doing the same.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I am wondering if the trend is with ECI engines or cylinders. A buddy of mine has been continuously having oil temp issues and he has ECI cylinders, where as mine with Lycoming have been in the 180-190 range in CA summer time and 165-175 in cooler seasons.
 
I too had high oil temps. I was told initially that a new engine will run hot for the first 10-15 hours. Mine ran hot for about the first 30. I had temps at 210-215 when I first started Phase I, now just finishing Phase I my temps are at around 188-192. Here's what I did to deal with my temps

1. raised the doubles strips on the baffles so that the baffle seals are tighter to the cowl.

2. Lowered my oil pressure to 73 in cruise (50 idle, 83 max)

3. Taped cowl inlets with foil tape (fiberglass to follow).

4. Listened to those who said to wait a while and see what happens when the engine is good and broken in.

More than anything #4 I think did more than anything. I literally when from staring at high oil temps to where I am at now barely checking (master caution will alert me if there is a problem)
 
I'm betting it has nothing to do with the engine. I fought oil cooling problems in my bird for quite a while.

First thing to check: pull out the Vernitherm; clean it; put it in water; and slowly bring it to a boil - it should open. If it does not, you aren't sending oil to the cooler.

I ended up mounting my oil cooler directly in front of #2 and putting a scoop over it that looked like it would steal 80% of the incoming air - but CHTs are just fine and oil stays in the green now.

Not a James cowl or plenum, but same ideas.
 
A friend fought high oil temps for months, swapped his cooler for a larger one (I've got his 1st, now), etc etc. One day after a flight he got a wild hair & immediately after a flight, popped open the oil door, pulled the filler plug & took the engines temperature by pointing a laser thermometer at the oil looking down the oil fill tube. Problem solved. (After his sensor/gauge was repaired.)

Cheap & easy to try...

Charlie
 
apkp777 said:
I too had high oil temps. I was told initially that a new engine will run hot for the first 10-15 hours. Mine ran hot for about the first 30. I had temps at 210-215 when I first started Phase I, now just finishing Phase I my temps are at around 188-192. Here's what I did to deal with my temps

1. raised the doubles strips on the baffles so that the baffle seals are tighter to the cowl.

2. Lowered my oil pressure to 73 in cruise (50 idle, 83 max)

3. Taped cowl inlets with foil tape (fiberglass to follow).

4. Listened to those who said to wait a while and see what happens when the engine is good and broken in.

More than anything #4 I think did more than anything. I literally when from staring at high oil temps to where I am at now barely checking (master caution will alert me if there is a problem)
Click to expand...
'



Tony,

I like #4 also but it sure is hard to do.
Rooster,Woody, Glider have all been helping but just trying to
get it together.

(KYLE)The hole in the baffle is larger than the face of the oil cooler. Don't have a pic though.
I had a 8 row Positech in there before I changed out to the
SW 8406. Larry Vetterman said I need a bigger oil cooler
on the IO-360 engine.
Sam James says not to use the Positech and that what I
thought the problem was. Didn't change much but just
trying to come to a conclusion so I can get some flying
time in.

I am running a LS III on one side and a mag on the other.
 
I have thought of lowering my oil pressure. It currently sits at around 79 psi in cruise. I'm curious how much lowering it 10 psi would change the oil temps.

I also typically run with only 6 quarts of oil, but my flight on Saturday was closer to 5 (maybe 5-1/4 quarts). I added one quart prior to my return flight, so that may also account for the slightly lower temps.

I like the idea of checking my Vernatherm...I'll probably do that this weekend. I'll also try to get my hands on a laser thermometer to check...another good idea.

The one interesting thing is, I have enough of a slight oil leak that I get a little oil on the belly of the airplane right behind the cowl. I've noticed the streaks curve from the outside toward the inside of the cowl exhaust opening. Isn't this supposed to be a low pressure area, or do I have that wrong? I really don't know what I would do as far as modifying that part of the cowl. Not sure I want to go that route.

Lastly, are oil temps in the 225 range really all that high? I'd prefer them to be lower, but I'm not sure if it really matters until 240 or higher. Same with my CHTs...is the 380 range all that bad? When I lean the engine they creep up to the 390's, but never higher than 400 or so.
 
lostpilot28 said:
I have thought of lowering my oil pressure. It currently sits at around 79 psi in cruise. I'm curious how much lowering it 10 psi would change the oil temps.

I also typically run with only 6 quarts of oil, but my flight on Saturday was closer to 5 (maybe 5-1/4 quarts). I added one quart prior to my return flight, so that may also account for the slightly lower temps.

I like the idea of checking my Vernatherm...I'll probably do that this weekend. I'll also try to get my hands on a laser thermometer to check...another good idea.

The one interesting thing is, I have enough of a slight oil leak that I get a little oil on the belly of the airplane right behind the cowl. I've noticed the streaks curve from the outside toward the inside of the cowl exhaust opening. Isn't this supposed to be a low pressure area, or do I have that wrong? I really don't know what I would do as far as modifying that part of the cowl. Not sure I want to go that route.

Lastly, are oil temps in the 225 range really all that high? I'd prefer them to be lower, but I'm not sure if it really matters until 240 or higher. Same with my CHTs...is the 380 range all that bad? When I lean the engine they creep up to the 390's, but never higher than 400 or so.
Click to expand...

As a point of reference, I just went through a series of in-flight photos of the panel......again. Oil pressure between 78-83 & oil temps 175-195. I usually run six quarts of oil. I'll add, when it's 5.5.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
RE: ECi My Experience

I have followed closely Scott's thread on his process to cool the oil. It has been enlightening.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=60008

I know you ECi folks have read extensivley ECi's Break in instructions, their trouble shooting guide, and engine performance specification chart at

http://www.eci.aero/pages/tech.aspx#breakin
http://www.eci.aero/exp/eng_comparisons_chart.pdf

From the comparison chart they recommend max CHT's 425 @ cruise and Max oil temps at 245.

These two numbers seem to really raise the hair on the backs of most lyco gurus head who say 380 max for CHT's 180 to 195 on the oil temps.

So here is what my engine is giving at 80 hours after a year of flying...

In the early break in (first 10 hours) I was running Aeroshell 100 Mineral oil and had a hard time getting the oil temps to 180.....than I read the above info AGAIN and realized ECi recommendes AeroShell XC 20W-50. So at the 10 hour oil change in goes the 20W-50 and the Oil Temp went to 200 to 205 and is pegged there ever since. I even changed the oil cooler from the Vans provided to the kicked up SW8406......OIL Temps are 200 to 205 no matter the OAT.

I am running an IOX Titan 360 with PMags, Ram Air Induction, enclosed plenum alla Robbie Attaway ....http://www.attawayair.com/DSC01430.JPG
with Whirlwind 200RV prop and the Vetterman 4 stack ..."Harley" ... exhaust

I have noted that my CHT's run 370, 400, 405, 390 respectivily on average at about 75% power and 10.9 GPH fuel burn...which is about 2 gph down from the 12.9 early in the break in to get the same CHT numbers. At 65% fuel burn the Oil stays at the 200 to 205 with a 5 to 10 degree drop in CHT's. I am consistenly getting 170 to 180 knots at 23.5 squared. But I am still not sure the engine is broken in because the oil consumption is at 1 quart per 8 to 10 hour of engine run time. I have tried lean of peak and the oil temp stays at 200 to 205 but there is a 20 plus degree drop in CHT temps with only a 5 to 8 knot penalty in speed but the GPH drops to 7.....show me the money.;) and according to Deakens at AVWEB ( http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/ ) this is the way to go beyond TBO....as if my old body will last that long.

So where is the truth .... ECi, Deakin's, Vetterman, ????

My local folks (tons of hours in the commercial and experimental world) are tired of me whining about temps. They say fly the plane keep the NUMBERS reasonable. Enjoy what you built. With that said I would sure like to just be consuming a quart of oil every 50 hours, have the CHT's a 380 and the oil temp pegged at 180!!!!!!:D and make that perfect greaser of a landing every time.:eek:

I do believe that as we approach the high limits our engines are not so happy....just an opinion.

FRank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ...Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG) 1st annual underway!!
 
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RE: Oil Consumption

L.Adamson said:
As a point of reference, I just went through a series of in-flight photos of the panel......again. Oil pressure between 78-83 & oil temps 175-195. I usually run six quarts of oil. I'll add, when it's 5.5.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
Click to expand...

Hi Larry

What are your usual CHT readings and about how much oil do you consume per 10 hours of time on the engine??????

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
 
fstringham7a said:
Hi Larry

What are your usual CHT readings and about how much oil do you consume per 10 hours of time on the engine??????

Frank @ 1L8 ... RV7A ... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
Click to expand...

I'm one of those el-chepo six packers.........who just has the #3 cylinder monitored for CHT & EGT. The CHT is usually in the 325 F. range, most all the time on cross countries. And that includes St. George last May & Oct. The only exception is cold days and lower throttle settings. It will approach 400 on climbs.

I read about the "quart" every 10 hrs. I might be half that, but I haven't really kept track, because my engine doesn't over consume. However, even a quart at 10 hrs, is okay, from what I've read. Total engine time is just below 150 hrs.

L.Adamson
 
We're having high oil temps on the new RV-8 too.

It also has the ECI Titan IOX-360 engine, and the stock Van's-supplied (NDM 7-row '200002A') oil cooler mounted on the cyl #4 baffle, and the 90 degree oil filter adapter with the questionable vernitherm seating issue.

Using Aeroshell 100 oil for the break-in and the first few flights got the oil temps well into the upper 230's. So far the oil is not turning dark at all, as I would have expected it too after running at such high temperature for several hours. I guess that Aeroshell 100 must be some pretty tough stuff, eh?

After extensive research here in the forums, and seeing some good ideas, we fabricated a 3/4" thick rectangular spacer out of extruded U-channel aluminum to set the oil cooler back away from the #4 cylinder head fins and form a plenum-like chamber. We also made a block-off plate out of a piece of 0.020 sheet to cover just the lower half of the opening next to the fins, and curved the top edge of that plate forwards so it can scoop some air downwards into and around the cylinder fins and also divert the cooler upper airflow into the oil cooler's new "plenum" opening. The first flight after this mod gave oil temps in the mid 220's, an immediate 10 degree drop from before. Now we're seeing the oil temp peak at 231-232 under hard running, which we still don't especially like, but is tolerable. Hopefully when the engine gets fully broken-in the temps will come down some more. CHTs were unaffected, in fact #4 is still consistently the coolest running in the upper 330's. Top CHT is usually around the upper 370's range, so this is definitely perplexing to have such high oil temps with such good CHTs.

After seeing some more photos of similar mods, I'd like to fabricate a different spacer box, not exactly squarely rectangular, but perhaps thicker at the top and thinner at the bottom, so as to angle the cooler downwards and expose more of it's forward surface to the air flow coming in from the top half of the baffle cutout now that the bottom half of the hole is blocked off. I'd also like to make the block-off plate out of thicker aluminum since the 0.020 is probably not going to last long before cracking.

BTW, we verified the oil temp probe and Dynon D120 settings by using a laser thermometer (Harbor Freight special) on the oil filter itself thru the oil door immediately after a flight while everything was still hot. The two agree within a couple degrees of each other, so I guess that means the Dynon and temp probe are accurate enough.
 
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Bubblehead said:
I don't understand how lower oil pressure causes lower oil temperatures. Please elaborate.
Click to expand...

I am not sure that it does. However after a discussion with others, the idea is that the lower the pressure the greater the flow rate back to sump.

I am sure all the experts out there will correct me on my thinking.
 
PAY ATTENTION TO THE AIRFLOW PATH

Fellas:

Have a look at your duct (or lack thereof) that leads the air to the cooler. IMHO we do as much as possible to slick up the outside of our ships, but don't pay enough attention to what happens to the air inside the cowling.

High probabilities: 1 the coolers are pretty much the same (equal size = equal BTU rejection); 2 the angle valve engine (and others with piston squirter nozzles) are adding more heat to the oil; 3 to get rid of this heat, you gonna need a bigger cooler (think 540 size); 4 the airflow into and out of the cooler should be managed.

Example: lets say you have a cooler on the aft baffle. I say this is a bad idea from the get-go, but stick with me here. The cooler is probably about 2" from the upper/inner sfc of the cowl. The air is moving along the sfc of the cowl, probably more or less smoothly. This air has to make 2 90 deg turns to go thru the cooler: one downward, and another aft to actually pass thru the cooler. These turns are bad juju.

If you are using a plenum, this 2" figure might be of a lesser value, but it is probably still there.

Let's fix the problem!

Move the cooler about 3" from the aft baffle and angle it downward a bit -- maybe 30-40 deg or so. It's probably gonna end up mounted to the engine mount -- make sure the hoses allow for the engine to shake around. Then let's build a duct that scoops the flow from the cowling inner sfc SMOOTHLY and turns it in ONE TURN to go straight thru the cooler fins. It is possible that you might need a turning vane in there somewhere to manage the air, and maybe a curved ramp (thin aluminum) to keep the aft baffle seal from causing a bump in the flow path.

Plenum guys: make sure the flow along the top of the plenum is smooth all the way to the cooler.

This might fix most of the problem for most of the ships.

If you want to go a step further, you can isolate the cooler exit from the engine cooling exit (another duct), and use a bluff body, or scupper, type of outlet.

Summary: I doubt that many of these oil temp issues are cooler-size related -- I suspect most of the issue is a simpler airflow problem.

Except for Boomer -- you obviously need a whole new plane. I'll take the old one to save you the recycle charges.:D

Carry on!
Mark
 
More heating ideas

F1Boss said:
High probabilities: 1 the coolers are pretty much the same (equal size = equal BTU rejection); 2 the angle valve engine (and others with piston squirter nozzles) are adding more heat to the oil; 3 to get rid of this heat, you gonna need a bigger cooler (think 540 size); 4 the airflow into and out of the cooler should be managed.
Click to expand...

What if you don't have the angle valve engine or piston squirters? Any ideas on other heat sources that could be causing this that are different from all other non ECI engines without cooling issues?

We've tried so many things between new vernatherms, new oil adapters, louvers, no louvers, heat shields, cut exhaust exit 2 " off cowl, new SW cooler mounted to firewall, then engine mount, then baffle. Basically almost NO difference from doing any of this.
 
Temp Gauge

hecilopter said:
We've tried so many things between new vernatherms, new oil adapters, louvers, no louvers, heat shields, cut exhaust exit 2 " off cowl, new SW cooler mounted to firewall, then engine mount, then baffle. Basically almost NO difference from doing any of this.
Click to expand...

Maybe I missed it but a good gauge/sending unit is pretty darn important.

For the first year I was flying I couldn't figure out why my oil temp was always low (140-160max), when I finally replaced it with an EI temp gauge it was exactly where it should be 170-190 avg. Did a lot of cooler blocking and fussing for nothing :eek:
 
F1Boss said:
Fellas:
Let's fix the problem!

Move the cooler about 3" from the aft baffle and angle it downward a bit -- maybe 30-40 deg or so. It's probably gonna end up mounted to the engine mount -- make sure the hoses allow for the engine to shake around. Then let's build a duct that scoops the flow from the cowling inner sfc SMOOTHLY and turns it in ONE TURN to go straight thru the cooler fins. It is possible that you might need a turning vane in there somewhere to manage the air, and maybe a curved ramp (thin aluminum) to keep the aft baffle seal from causing a bump in the flow path.
Carry on!
Mark
Click to expand...

Something like this is what I believe Mark is discussing.
s8engine%20010_small.jpg
 
This may sound sort of dumb but how are your oil lines are routed to the cooler, incoming oil to the bottom of the cooler and returning from the top of the cooler to the top of the engine?

A friend of mine had it backward and had real high oil temp. He fixed it and the temp came down fair amount.

BTW, 1 quart per 10 hours is really good at least for Lycoming engine running with Areoshell oil.
 
Except for Boomer -- you obviously need a whole new plane. I'll take the old one to save you the recycle charges.:D

Carry on!
Mark[/QUOTE]





Rocket--
As always THANKS for the advice.

See ya soon.
Boomer
 
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Kahuna said:
Something like this is what I believe Mark is discussing.
s8engine%20010_small.jpg
Click to expand...

That's similar to what we're going to end up doing. Got a 20006A cooler on the way, and will fabricate new mounting brackets and whatever air ducting is necessary to make it fit and work. Gonna be a tight squeeze, but the IO-360 with piston oil squirters is just simply making far too much heat for the little 20002A 7-row cooler to handle in triple-digit summer heat. The 20006A has 13 rows, and hopefully will be overkill for the job.
 
I've got problems too.

James plennum, )-320 150 hp.
I was seeing 245* before I could get her back on the ground, and CHT's and Oil temp shot up when I pulled power in the pattern. That told me it was air flow issues, so I smoothed up the intakes to make a nice transition into the plennum. That helped about 10-15* but it is still obviously too hot.

I think I will try the vane idea and try to shoot more air into the cooler.

I also talked to Scott James and he said to get rid of the piston squirters, for what it is worth. I was not about to crack it open to do that until I tried every other option.

Lets keep in touch. We all need to know how each other solves these issues, because they are indeed more common than one might think.
Hack
 
I've got the piston skirt squirters. Why do they have anything to do with oil temps? Maybe I'm just not understanding how they could have any bearing on oil temps.

Also, I looked yesterday and found that I have the Niagra 20002 oil cooler. Bummer...wonder if upgrading to the SW would be hard to do. Does anyone know if the holes line up the same as on the Niagra?

Lastly, I'm pretty sure my oil pressure was running in the mid 70's, and I thought lowering it a bit may help, so I was going to start by turning the relief valve outward 3 turns. I was surprised to only get 2-1/2 before I hit the stop. I suppose if I wanted to lower it anymore I'd have to get the lighter spring, right?
 
lostpilot28 said:
I've got the piston skirt squirters. Why do they have anything to do with oil temps?
Click to expand...

The heat from the piston and skirt gets transferred to the oil to be removed by the oil cooler.

This is more of an air to oil... cooled motor, than an air to cylinder, cylinder head cooled motor.
 
lostpilot28 said:
Also, I looked yesterday and found that I have the Niagra 20002 oil cooler. Bummer...wonder if upgrading to the SW would be hard to do. Does anyone know if the holes line up the same as on the Niagra?
Click to expand...

The smaller SW cooler, p/n 8406R looks to be the same size as the NDM 20002A, and the chart in Spruce's online catalog suggests they fit the same.
http://aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/ndm.php

I doubt the SW 8406R will still be large enough for these ECI IO-360 engines. It'll probably cool better than the NDM 20002A however, since it's supposed to be more thermally efficient.

After exhaustively searching these forums for many days, the cooler that seems to be getting the best results for the size is the SW 8432R 8-row, double-pass cooler that's wider than the 20002A, but still can be fitted onto the cyl #4 baffle with some modifications.

It seems the widest one you can readily mount onto the rear baffle is a 10-row cooler, and you'll have to cut the hole in the baffle open wider, and add some extra bracing to support the added weight and prevent baffle cracking.
 
hecilopter said:
Would really like reports from someone with an ECI engine. I see LostPilot28 with an ECI having similar issues. I've been helping Boomer with this. H. Evans seems to be running a Superior engine according to his web site and is reporting low temps. Everyone I know locally with Superior engines has low oil temps, myself included. We have 3 and all run very low (160-170 range on 90 degree ambient).

One problem a buddy had with an ECI engine and high oil temps turned out to be from piston skirt squirters. These have since been removed and that issue is fixed on that airplane. Not the problem in this case however as Boomer has no piston squirters installed.

The ECI engine/Sam James cowl and plenum/Vetterman 4 pipe combination is something no one else locally has, and someone with that EXACT combination and has normal oil temps in the under 200 range can hopefully provide the answer.

The strange thing in this is that the CHT's are in the low 300 range, so temps shouldn't be coming from ignition issues or cooling fin air flow issues.

What is heating the oil and not the CHT's? :confused:

The 4 pipe exhaust really seems to block exit air on this -A model (imagine the top 2 pipes not being there), yet there is sufficient cooling for the cylinders. A phone call to Vetterman says this is not the issue. See here for similar pic:

exhaust.jpg
Click to expand...
Hi there, I have an RV 7 with much the same set up ECI IOX 360, vetterman pipes, 8406 oil cooler, Hartzell blended airfoil cs prop. Oil temps sitting at 225 in low level crz power set at 24 in/ 2400 rpm. Oil press at 65 psi with that power set. 75 hrs so far. Would like to see the temps a bit lower... Any ideas?
 
Brian ZRV said:
Hi there, I have an RV 7 with much the same set up ECI IOX 360, vetterman pipes, 8406 oil cooler, Hartzell blended airfoil cs prop. Oil temps sitting at 225 in low level crz power set at 24 in/ 2400 rpm. Oil press at 65 psi with that power set. 75 hrs so far. Would like to see the temps a bit lower... Any ideas?
Click to expand...

Sure. The 8406 is way too small.
 
DanH said:
Sure. The 8406 is way too small.
Click to expand...

I don't think its way to small but marginal depending on OAT. I run an ECI 360 and temps are fine (180F) when OAT's are around 80F, when it's 100+F OAT my temps can run closer to 220-230F. (power setting approx 65%, higher power = higher temps). Being that I don't do that much flying when the temps are that high (or climb to cooler temps) I find the 8406 adequite but marginally so with high OAT's.
 
Walt said:
I find the 8406 adequite but marginally so with high OAT's.
Click to expand...
Is the 8406 what comes stock in Vans FWF kits? I have an 0-320 but my numbers tend to look like Walt's and am wondering what the next best oil cooler is that will still fit in the stock (baffle) location.
 
alpinelakespilot2000 said:
Is the 8406 what comes stock in Vans FWF kits? I have an 0-320 but my numbers tend to look like Walt's and am wondering what the next best oil cooler is that will still fit in the stock (baffle) location.
Click to expand...

I think the FWF kits came with the Niagra, the SW/Meggit 8406 will generally give about 10-15 Deg cooler temps than the Niagra.
 
Thanks Mike :D ! Thanks Dan & Walt for the info!

Really appreciate the response. I am flying in Johannesburg South Africa our temps are regularly at 80 to 90 F with an airport elevation of 5500 ft. Would you advise an 8 row SW 8432 R would sort it out and still fit better or would you go to the 10 row max. Any ideas if an inverted oil system would have any effect if added to the existing 8406 system, I have heard that this could make a difference?
 
Brian ZRV said:
I am flying in Johannesburg South Africa our temps are regularly at 80 to 90 F with an airport elevation of 5500 ft. Would you advise an 8 row SW 8432 R would sort it out and still fit better or would you go to the 10 row max. Any ideas if an inverted oil system would have any effect if added to the existing 8406 system, I have heard that this could make a difference?
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Brian, the data you want is is found here:

http://www.oilcoolers.com/LCHX_Specifications.pdf

Design is mostly a matter of artful compromise. The double-pass 8432 has excellent heat transfer, but is much more restrictive to oil flow (compare pressure drops at 56 lbs/min, the Lycoming-specified oil flow at 2700). An 8432 system will have a higher pressure delta at the vernatherm, with several interesting effects. However, 8432 systems seem to work fine for the most part.

Look close at the charts and you'll see the "next size up", a 10599, is actually the same physical size, and being a single pass unit, lower in heat transfer capacity.

Apples to apples, it takes a 10611 to match the 8432 in terms of heat transfer. The bonus is greatly reduced oil pressure drop (less delta at the vernatherm, and lower pumping losses), and extended air mass capacity. The downside is physical size; you're not going to mount it on a rear baffle wall.

RE acro, I would think the primary physical difference is air entrainment. Air bubbles displace oil as a percentage of pumped volume. Pumped oil mass is reduced, and that lowers heat transfer.

The other acro consideration is the desired engine power setting. Unlike a cruiser, you can't pull power back to control oil temperature without spoiling the fun. The ability to climb at will is a big deal.

Last, there's the wildcard...deciding on the normal temperature acceptable to you. Redline is something like 240F. Lycoming and ECI both state 180F is preferred. My personal max is 210, and I want it while using the whole 210 HP I bought ;)
 
Is your ECI engine equipped with the piston oil squirters?

If so, then that makes the engine dump a lot more heat into the oil.

On the RV-8 with ECI Titan IO-360 that I posted about 3 years ago earlier in this very thread, we tried the 13-row oil cooler and it did perform great, got temps down to 180 in the hottest heat. I even mounted it on the rear cyl #4 baffle since we had no room on the firewall but it was rubbing against the engine mount and the inside of the fiberglass cowl when the engine shook during startup and shutdown, so it was clear that the giant cooler had to go. We eventually settled on the SW 10599R cooler which was a much better physical fit to the rear baffle and cools the oil good enough for all but the hottest days when we still see 230's in climbs, but being careful with power settings and keeping the nose down to climb at a higher airspeed help to mitigate that. Once leveled off for cruise, the temps come to normal levels.

In hindsight, had we known all this, we would've reserved space on the firewall for mounting the big 13-row cooler from the beginning. If there's a "next" RV build that I'm involved with, that is going to have a heat monster of an engine on it, the oil cooler planning is going to be done before the remainder of the firewall forward is decided upon, especially if the plane will be flown in our brutal Texas summer heat.
 
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Neal@F14 said:
In hindsight, had we known all this, we would've reserved space on the firewall for mounting the big 13-row cooler from the beginning. If there's a "next" RV build that I'm involved with, that is going to have a heat monster of an engine on it, the oil cooler planning is going to be done before the remainder of the firewall forward is decided upon.
Click to expand...

Having gone through an oil cooler upgrade/relocation on an IO-360 powered LongEZ, this is some of the best advice to those building in this thread.
 
I am curious about piston squirters. They seem overall to have a bad reputation on this forum. I often see advise to get rid of them. I find that a bit odd because the complaint seems to be they are very good at removing heat from the pistons. I can't really understand why this would not be a outstanding feature to have in a engine. Assuming reasonable oil temps squirters seem like a Excellent way to acheive long term engine health. Anything that is pulling heat out of the piston/cylinder area can't be all bad can it? The more I read on long term engine durability, the more I believe controlling heat in the piston cylinder area is the key. What am I missing here?
George
 
I think piston oil squirters are a very good thing. They help with the CHT numbers, as well as help reduce opportunity for detonation if you're also running high compression ratio pistons. Also all that extra oil spraying and bouncing around in the upper parts of the crankcase can only be good for helping keep the camshaft lobes and lifters well lubed too. If you're going to have them on your engine, you just can't think in "legacy terms" when it comes to planning your oil cooler setup... you've got to think "big" in that area ;)
 
Our engines are cooled by a combination of air, oil and fuel. I concur piston oil squirters are a benefit, as they reduce CHT's at the expense of slightly elevated oil temperature. My 9.7:1 CR Mattituck O-320 has piston oil squirters and allows CHT's of 370* at high cruise and 410/420* on a long climb on FL190. Oil temp was 180* prior to piston oil squirters and now runs 190/200 in high cruise and 220* on long climbs. In my installation [pusher and updraft cooling, so it isn't comparable to a RV] the piston oil squirters increased OT by 10-20* but decreased CHT's by about the same.
 
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