RV-6 Egress if UpsideDown

Would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on how they would egress should they find themselves upside down on the gound in a RV.

Has anyone heard of RV's ending up wrong side up? If so, how common of an event is it?

Was also wondering if anyone carries any type of tool which would enable them to cut their way out? If so, where would you try to exit?

Thanks,

Charlie

Having a -6 tip-up, I've thought about this long and hard. My conclusion is that there is no way to get the canopy of a tip-up (or a slider for that matter) open if it were upright. With that in mind I carry a small backpacking axe right next to the fire extinguisher, for just such egress emergencies.

I think the best way out is through the side skin, between the 604 and 605 bulkhead, between the longeron and the seat pan (where the armrest is.) There is a relatively large area which could be hacked out with an axe in short order. An additional, though very much secondary benefit, is that replacing the side skin would likely be easier than replacing a canopy.

There have been several RVs end up inverted. The easiest way out is to break the plexiglass. It's not that easy, but it's not all that hard either. None of the RV canopies can be opened under these circumstances, tip-up, slider, or tip-over.
Mel...DAR

RV egress upside down......

A couple of years ago I asked the same question about upside down egress. I also asked whether or not the slider can be opened at a slow airspeed, like 65 or 70 MPH or if it can be jettisoned if it had removable front canopy pins instead of the bolted on rollers. It would really be nice to jettison or open the canopy shortly before impact/landing whether in trees or an ocean or muddy field. I'd appreciate answers.
I'd even be willing to participate in paying someone to demonstrate opening the canopy in flight, in case it's lost/broken or deformed, to compensate them for any loss. Any takers or is this request too weird?
Pierre

jettison canopy

pierre smith said:

A couple of years ago I asked the same question about upside down egress. I also asked whether or not the slider can be opened at a slow airspeed, like 65 or 70 MPH or if it can be jettisoned if it had removable front canopy pins instead of the bolted on rollers. It would really be nice to jettison or open the canopy shortly before impact/landing whether in trees or an ocean or muddy field. I'd appreciate answers.
I'd even be willing to participate in paying someone to demonstrate opening the canopy in flight, in case it's lost/broken or deformed, to compensate them for any loss. Any takers or is this request too weird?

Click to expand...

I'm sure there is a way to jettison the canopy, but unless you are planning to egress right away, with a parachute, my intuition tells me that it would be best to keep the canopy on until the aircraft has stopped. The canopy will provide you a lot of protection while the airplane is tumbling on the ground, and keep you inside. Once stopped, if you are alive and conscious, you can start hacking on the canopy with a survival knife, an escape hammer, or one of those control sticks that are easy to remove, and have a nice sharp point.

I'm not aware of anyone that has died in an RV accident due to not being able to get out of the cockpit. It is possible, of course, and perhaps it has happened, but I have never read of any accidents like this.

Here's a detailed story written by Frank Eldridge Jr. detailing how he escaped from his RV6A after a forced landing and subsequent flip over.

http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20051007163110721

Which reminds me...

I've been wondering if I really need the canopy release that my tip-up 6 has. I simply can't see any benefit to having it, but I can see a possible downside in that it could accidentally get pulled. It's taking up panel space, too.

Is there any reason to keep it when I re-do the panel?

Dave,
There is a definite advantage to installing the canopy release, even if you do not intend to jettisson in flight. Any time you need to do extensive work behind the panel, it is much easier to do with the canopy removed. These are experimental airplanes and few of them are ever really "finished". We are always adding to or moving stuff around on the instrument panel. I have removed my canopy several times in the last 13 years (in the hangar). As far as accidently pulling the jettisson in flight, if you don't intend to use it in flight then put it straight down under the panel where it is not accessable in flight. I've done this on several -9s. Even if the handle is through the panel as per the plans, you have to pull it quite far to release. I can't imagine anyone being able to pull it all the way without the pilot being able to stop them.
Mel...DAR

charlie grba said:

Would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on how they would egress should they find themselves upside down on the gound in a RV........ wondering if anyone carries any type of tool which would enable them to cut their way out?............

Click to expand...

On my RV, the passenger side removable joystick also serves as this simple device I sincerely hope I never have occasion to use! http://tinyurl.com/e8kpt

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla

That makes sense

Yes, I can see the utility of having it to remove the canopy for maintenance reasons. I think I'll look into simply re-locating it to a less accessible spot as you suggest.

Mel said:

Dave,
There is a definite advantage to installing the canopy release, even if you do not intend to jettisson in flight. Any time you need to do extensive work behind the panel, it is much easier to do with the canopy removed. These are experimental airplanes and few of them are ever really "finished". We are always adding to or moving stuff around on the instrument panel. I have removed my canopy several times in the last 13 years (in the hangar). As far as accidently pulling the jettisson in flight, if you don't intend to use it in flight then put it straight down under the panel where it is not accessable in flight. I've done this on several -9s. Even if the handle is through the panel as per the plans, you have to pull it quite far to release. I can't imagine anyone being able to pull it all the way without the pilot being able to stop them.
Mel...DAR

Click to expand...

Could be VERY EXPENSIVE

pierre smith said:

A couple of years ago I asked the same question about upside down egress. I also asked whether or not the slider can be opened at a slow airspeed, like 65 or 70 MPH or if it can be jettisoned if it had removable front canopy pins instead of the bolted on rollers. It would really be nice to jettison or open the canopy shortly before impact/landing whether in trees or an ocean or muddy field. I'd appreciate answers.
I'd even be willing to participate in paying someone to demonstrate opening the canopy in flight, in case it's lost/broken or deformed, to compensate them for any loss. Any takers or is this request too weird?
Pierre

Click to expand...

Perhaps "too dangerous" would be a better description. Don't think I'd care to see what happens when a canopy departs from the aircraft and whacks the vertical stabilizer. Or, if the canopy only partially breaks loose and is flailing the side of the fuselage. If you and another pilot were to try this, and if that pilot died, guess who's left holding the bag?

Jettisoning a canopy and them bailing out(with a parachute) is a different story because as soon as you leave the aircraft, it is toast anyway. Probably won't find many takers to help you with this experiment.

Getting yourself or someone else killed simply to demonstrate the feasibility or infeasibility of an emergency procedure... it would be a good idea to enlist the help of experts who do this for a living.

Here's the link

william weesner said:

dan left this out and made good sense to me but then i aint there yet. had a thought provoking little write up to boot you may want to read that at rvproject.com

Click to expand...

Here's the link for anyone else that might be interested. He went through pretty much the same thought process as I did, and arrived at an only slightly different solution:

http://www.rvproject.com/20030220.html

Upside down-see 'RV Friends Who Have Passed On'...

Frank Eldridge (deceased) had this happen to him and wrote and spoke about his being thrown into the baggage area of his 6A. He was upside down with the plane partially in a wet area. He pulled his 5-6" pocket knife out and chipped out a large enough area on the rear baggage area to crawl out of the plane. Later I crawled back in that hole to recover some personal items for him. His only injury in the accident was a cut on his head from being cut by the plexiglass.

His best advice, some of which you will read in the links I added in the tribute I wrote a few weeks ago under the forum 'RV Friends Who Have Passed On' suggested:
1) Buy and wear the best seat belt/shoulder harnesses you can afford
2) Always carry a sharp knife on your person to use to break the canopy out.

I was on-scene within moments of Frank's accident. I helped recover the airplane and helped in the NTSB investigation. Frank's RV was kept in my hanger.I am very familiar with this accident and the excellent protection the RV-6A design provided.

So, with this experience as a background, I have a canopy breaker tool from an F-4 mounted on the back side of my 6A flap motor mount. I have a strong folding hunting knife in a side pocket. I installed Hooker harnesses along with a strong crotch strap. I used removeable 'gear' pins to hold my slider canopy on the front canopy mounts.

From one of Frank's articles:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Eldridge" <[email protected]>

January 1, 2003, I had a forced landing in a RV6A. After a ground roll of about
20 feet in a swampy area the plane ended up on its back. I found myself in
the baggage compartment unhurt. I had always thought that I could kick plexiglass
in the canopy out, but I could not. I always carry a pocket knife with a three
inch locking blade and I was able to take that knife and break a hole in
the canopy to get out. The only blood in the airplane was where I cut my hands
on the plexiglass breaking a larger hole in order to extract myself. I strongly
recommend to all my RV friends that they carry a knife like mine in their
pocket because in my case I could not have got to a tool in the cockpit of the
airplane. I have followed RV accidents very closely since mine, and a large
number wind up on their back. So, please get a knife and keep it in your pocket
when flying an RV. There is a story about my accident posted on Doug Reeves
Van's Air Force Web page. Here is the link to my particular article:

http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/FrankEldridge0.pdf

Best of luck,

Frank

canopy breaker tool from an F-4

Vern said:

I have a canopy breaker tool from an F-4 mounted on the back side of my 6A flap motor mount.

Click to expand...

Hi Vern, Do you have any pictures of this tool? Sounds interesting. If it will break an F-4 canopy, I'm pretty sure it will break an RV canopy!

Carb heat

If you click on one of the links from the accident narrative you get the NTSB report. They have this to report on Van's carb heat: They say it doesn't work. See below.

The temperature and dew point at Peachtree city, two hours past the time of the accident, indicates serious carburetor icing at any power setting. Flight testing of a RV6A airplane equipped with the same carburetor heat system, same model engine, and same model carburetor as the accident airplane but with a temperature probe revealed that with the engine operating at 75 percent power and carburetor heat applied, the temperature rise was 1/2 degree Fahrenheit above the temperature with carburetor heat off. According to the general manager of Van's Aircraft, they offer 2 different types of carburetor heat systems, and they have not done any heat rise testing on any of the various carburetor heat systems that can be installed on RV type airplanes. With respect to carburetor heat muffs, a section of the builders manual states that each builder is responsible for evaluating his/her own installation based on the liklihood of carburetor ice in his/her intended operating environment.

These threads are always interesting

I spoke with my Tech Advisor and he told me he took off in his -6A slider forgot to latch it. After a few minutes he realized his canopy was open about 2" and reached up and tried to move it forward. He said it wouldn't move forward or aft. Next he tried slow flight, again he couldn't move the canopy forward or aft. Only after he was on the ground with no air loads on the plane could he move his canopy .

This makes me think that someone going in to the water w/ a -6/7/9 slider may not be able to open before impact or to get out in the event they need to jettison their RV in flight.

Just another observation, and one that I had not heard before from anyone who has ever actually tried to open their slider in flight.