RV-4 order form options

Barring any miracle of finding a good deal on a used RV-4 kit this month, I will be ordering my empennage, wings and fuselage from Van?s towards the end of the month. I?ll decide on the finishing kit later on. I would appreciate some feedback on their options. I have my mind already made up on some, and not sure what to do with others. I will list them all for the benefit of others who are faced with the same decisions on what to do, and hopefully we can make some wiser decisions because of the feedback.

Empennage options:

It?s the simplest since there is only one option. The electric elevator trim for $305.00. It mentions weight comparable to the manual trim. I think I?ll go manual here, but for others wanting this option, are you pleased with Van?s quality, or opted for another source you?re pleased with?

Wing options:

The Phlogiston Products wing spar option looks great, and lots of good feedback with that. Anybody have a good ball park figure of what this would cost? It?s not listed on Van?s order form since it?s another company that makes them.

It also mentions the ?capacitive fuel sending units? for $60.00. It mentions it will not work with resistance gauges. I don?t have a clue yet what my gauges will be or what is needed so any help would be appreciated on what you think I should do here.

?Float Fuel Sending Units? are listed for $54.00. It says two supplied, and will work with Van?s gauges and other resistance gauges. I know I need them, so unless others have had bad feedback with the quality, I?ll probably go with this option.


Fuselage options:

Rear seat rudder pedal kit for $135.00. I definitely want rudder pedal kits, or others happy with Van?s, or did you make your own?

Forward baggage compartment for $60.00. I have no idea if I would like this or not. Any way W&B issues could be helped or hindered by this option or is it too insignificant a weight to matter in this area? What did you do?

Electric Flaps for $495.00. Ouch! I think I can live with the manual flaps, but curious if the manual flap handle poses much of a problem by being in the way? I?m only 5?10? and 155 lbs, so maybe that helps. If anyone already has pics of this, I?d love to see it. I?ve been having trouble finding one.

Static air kit for $19.00. Did most use Van?s?

Manual aileron trim for $16.00 or electric for $285.00.

That?s it. You don?t have to go through all of them if you don?t want to. Any feedback or comments on any of these options will be appreciated.

Empennage options: NOT Manual Trim... you'll love it!

Wing options: Phlog Spar... you'll want it! Don't know todays cost. Floats senders all you need.

Fuselage options: Front rudder pedals all you need... Forward baggage is nice... Manual flaps yes... Van's static air works great... Manual Aileron trim.

Look into recessed footing for the rear seat.

Build on...

My thoughts on options...

I have both electric flaps and 2-axis trim in my -4 and have been happy with both. When I built mine, electric trim was not an option, so I cannot speak to the details of the kits. The coolie hat switch on the stick is very handy for trim adjustments.

I have the Phlogiston spar and would consider it essential. The match drilling of the spar to the bulkhead, alone, is worth the price. I always smile when I am upside down in my -4 thinking of that gold anodized spar.

The float senders I received with my kit were very unimpressive. I would not bother with those, again. I saw a beautiful sender out of a Cirrus fuel tank. I don't know who makes it, but if I were starting again, I would not use the float senders supplied with (my) kit. I am not familiar with the capacitive senders. In my experience, EI makes excellent gauges and senders of all types, though I am not familiar with their fuel level senders.

I never installed the rudder pedals, but may some day. I saw some photos of an aftermarket system that looked nice...

I never had near enough room to consider installing the foward baggage compartment. With a glass cockpit, more room may be available, today.

Finally, I elected to buy my kit one section at a time primarily for cash flow. It worked to my benefit, however, in that all the subsequent improvements that became available were included in the later kits. For instance, when I started my tail kit, features like taller gear, honeycomb cowl, pressure recovery wheel pants, etc. were not part of the design. By the time I ordered the subsequent kits, these new parts were all included. I missed out, however, on the .020 rudder skin option and ended up building a new rudder last year. I would make both rudder and elevators in 0.020.

It may be, however, that the development of the kit is quite mature and no significant changes would be made, so purchasing everything had once would have little down-side.

Good luck,

Dean Pichon

Dean Pichon said:

I have the Phlogiston spar and would consider it essential. The match drilling of the spar to the bulkhead, alone, is worth the price. I always smile when I am upside down in my -4 thinking of that gold anodized spar.

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The F404 bulkhead comes with the wing kit from Vans already match drilled to the spar. However, the Phlogiston spar will save you from having to set a couple hundred -6 rivets, a good day's work.

My two cents:

Elevator trim: Electric trim is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter where you need it in a -4, in the back. I installed electric after the fact, and the cable alone for manual trim is much heavier than the servo and wires. However, the manual trim seemed to work better. It takes some technique to get it in trim, at least for me.

Electric Flaps: If you want your passenger to be comfortable, go electric. They work great, and there is no handle to fit into a cockpit with almost no room.

Rear seat rudder peddles: In the 700+ hours I have in the -4 they could have been used maybe 2 hours. You just don't really need them unless you are landing or doing aerobatics, niether of which you should let a passenger do from the back seat. There is very little adverse yaw at cruise speed, so they aren't really needed much anyway. Also, if you are going on a cross country, they would be in the way of my usual passenger, my wife. See above comment about a cockpit with no extra room. Having said that, if I was going to put on rear seat rudder pedals I would install them so they could be folded out of the way or removed in seconds.

Forward Baggage: You will definitely need it if you fly your plane on trips with a passenger, but I wouldn't use Van's. I move the battery from between the rudder pedals to in front of the firewall. This moves the CG forward all by itself, and then you can put heavy stuff where the battery went. I usually put tools, airchart system books, handheld radio, etc. up there along with whatever books we brought along to read and water.

Also, use an Odyssy (sp?) battery instead of the one the plans show. It will save about 10 lb.

Other advice... keep it light. After flying it for several years I put in on a weight reduction program and my plane dropped 20 lbs. It was a different airplane after that.

All that said, it is your airplane, build what you want! That is the whole point!

John, I have already collected my thoughts on this subject here.

I did order and assemble the forward luggage tray, but it has never flown. Its ugly to my mind. I have quite a bit of forward storage though, see here ,here, and here.

I would strongly suggest you implement rear footwells.

Have fun!

Look into recessed footing for the rear seat.

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Yeah, several have mentioned that, something I definitely will want to do.

It may be, however, that the development of the kit is quite mature and no significant changes would be made, so purchasing everything had once would have little down-side.

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I’m shooting for 18-24 month completion time from when I start it in April of 2010, so I’m going to go ahead and get quite a bit of it. I’ve got the free time now. It’s just figuring out everything along the way, which I hope doesn’t slow me down too much.

By the time I ordered the subsequent kits, these new parts were all included. I missed out, however, on the .020 rudder skin option and ended up building a new rudder last year. I would make both rudder and elevators in 0.020.

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I forgot that one, and didn’t see it on the order form, perhaps it is there. I remember others going with .020 for the elevator, didn’t know others were using that size for the rudder too, so will explore this a bit more. Thanks for remembering to bring this up.

Electric Flaps: If you want your passenger to be comfortable, go electric. They work great, and there is no handle to fit into a cockpit with almost no room.

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Not having ever seen the manual flap handle, I wasn’t aware it would be the passenger that would be most effected by the room. So, as much as I would hate to pay the extra for it, that’s kind of got me leaning towards getting the electric flaps now. I do like the control stick having the buttons you push for your flaps and possibly elevator trim built into that, it certainly looks great and convenient. I liked the suggestion of setting up some foldable or removable rudder pedals for the back too, so will probably just skip Van’s, and figure out my own.

Everybody thanks for your feedback and links. Steve, I’ve spent some time at your site before, it's already been plenty helpful, and will probably be going there throughout my building too.

And for others considering all the options, even although Van’s doesn’t offer it, the fastback is very popular, and something I want to do as well.

My thoughts -
Trim, I like electric elevator trim, but the manual works well. The manual ail trim also works well (and is well worth fitting). If you like a coolie hat trim switch on top of the stick then you need both trims to be electric - but it costs several hundred $$ to do that. Depends on what you want.

Wing, I built my own spar - it took a long time. I would get a Phlog spar if I did it again. I would also stick with float fuel senders. The capacitive versions are just too much hassle. The float sender are accurate at low level - when it really matters - and simple.

Fuselage, I would get the rudder pedals, pass on the baggage locker and definitely get the electric flaps. The manual flap handle can be tricky to get into the slot on the side of the seat and the passenger's foot can get in the way. Electric is just better. Static kit is OK - or use Safeair1 kit. Get manual trim and use the money saved on the electric trim on the electric flaps.

Pete
Flying 6, still building 4

wrongway john said:

I forgot that one, and didn?t see it on the order form, perhaps it is there. I remember others going with .020 for the elevator, didn?t know others were using that size for the rudder too, so will explore this a bit more. Thanks for remembering to bring this up.

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Another option here is to install a 1.5x1.5x0.016 angle bent to fit inside the full length of the trailing edge of each 0.016 empenage control surface skin. They are wide enough to catch the aftmost stiffener rivets on both sides, to reinforce the trailing edge. Probably a few ounces lighter than going with 0.020 skins. AFIK John Harmon's original HRII is still going strong with this setup.

wrongway john said:

And for others considering all the options, even although Van?s doesn?t offer it, the fastback is very popular, and something I want to do as well.

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If you like the lines of the HRII fastback, the HRII is the same width as the RV-4 from the rear seat back on rearward, so you could get the upper bulkhead parts for the fastback from Harmon Rocket,LLC.

longranger said:

Another option here is to install a 1.5x1.5x0.016 angle bent to fit inside the full length of the trailing edge of each 0.016 empenage control surface skin. They are wide enough to catch the aftmost stiffener rivets on both sides, to reinforce the trailing edge. Probably a few ounces lighter than going with 0.020 skins. AFIK John Harmon's original HRII is still going strong with this setup.

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Decisions, decisions....Dammit longranger, I almost had this figured out, and now you give me this option.

If you like the lines of the HRII fastback, the HRII is the same width as the RV-4 from the rear seat back on rearward, so you could get the upper bulkhead parts for the fastback from Harmon Rocket,LLC.

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Thanks, I think I may give him a call. Seems like I've read some were happy with his bulkheads, but still having to fabricate them a bit. I think a small number opted to make their own. Not sure on what to do with this yet.

Penguin, thanks for your thoughts as well. Looks like a few like the Safeair1 kit, so I'll look into that.

Anybody else?

Van's price increase set for 2-01-10

Just to remind everyone, that Van's will be having their price increases for 2-01-10, so if you are getting any kit, might want to order it before then. I'll delay my order till mid-January in the hope I could still possibly find a decent deal on a used RV-4 kit.

Bruce, I seen where you were able to get my PM this time, but just wanted to let you know I still never received the pics or mail from you to my regular e-mail address as of today. Not sure if we still are having PM problems or not, which is why I'm writing here. I'll wait till the holidays are over, and try to call you again if I don't get anything.

John