Landing an -8 With a Passenger

I've got about 50 hours in my RV-8. Previous tailwheel time was 350 hours in a Citabria, and 200 hours in a Christen Eagle II. What I found early on was the -8 does not like to be landed in a 3 point attitude. So I started using wheelies for landing and after a few hours could do a pretty good job of it. At this point I believe I'm relatively competent at it and more times than not can grease it in, unless Mother Nature throws me a curve and humbles me with a few wind gusts. But all in all I feel pretty confident landing the airplane.

HOWEVER, almost all of my flying has been solo. I have found that the few times I've had a passenger in the rear seat I NEVER get anywhere close to a greaser, and usually get a couple of hops before things get steady. And the other bad thing is that since I rarely have a passenger I don't get much practice at it. Sooooo.......what is the best method of landing an -8 with a rear seat passenger (~200#)? Wheelie with a little power carried during the landing? Something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

The Best Method? Don't know....but one thing to do is to go out with ballast first Jim - start with two cases of oil in the back, and build up to passenger weight a little at a time (sounds like Phase 1 again, doesn't it?). By doing a build up, you'll discover the method that works best for you. For me, I like a little power and extra speed to keep the speed up above the point where the stick forces go to zero (there was a threat about this about two or three weeks ago).

Paul

Ironflight said:

The Best Method? Don't know....but one thing to do is to go out with ballast first Jim - start with two cases of oil in the back, and build up to passenger weight a little at a time (sounds like Phase 1 again, doesn't it?). By doing a build up, you'll discover the method that works best for you. For me, I like a little power and extra speed to keep the speed up above the point where the stick forces go to zero (there was a threat about this about two or three weeks ago).

Paul

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Thanks for the reply Paul. Your post kinda confirms what I thought was going on....a little slow with a higher sink rate has been killing my chance of a good landing. Next time I'll try the speed/power trick and see what happens. Your idea of a little weight back for practice there is good too.

The RV-8's flying qualities vary significantly as the CG moves aft. You certainly should do some testing solo with ballast before you put a passenger in the back seat. You shouldn't do anything with a passenger on board that you haven't already done solo, and that includes expanding the weight CG envelope.

I devoted several flights with a bit more aft ballast on each flight to move from forward to aft CGs. I did power OFF and power ON stalls on each flight, static and dynamic stability tests, a simulated approach and flare at altitude, then multiple touch and go landings.

At aft CG, I use a bit more speed to account for the extra weight, and on final I remind myself to use smaller control inputs to flare.

I use the same techniques as Paul and Kevin, a bit of extra power/speed and go easy on the stick during the flare. On final, I also tend to issue a pre-landing apology to the back seater, something like "I'm gonna bobble this thing a bit on touchdown, so umm... sorry." At 600+ hours on mine you'd think I'd have a better handle on it, but since probably over 90% of my time is solo I don't get to practice with a GIB all that much. That's my excuse anyway...

I'll echo what the others have said, but add that AOA instrumentation is hugely helpful.

I was frankly very surprised (although I shouldn't have been) at the necessary increase in approach speed when at gross vs. light/solo.

I think a lot of us are approaching too fast when light, and too slow when heavy.

About 1/3 of my time has been with a backseater, with weight varying from 120 (daughter in law) to 160 (wife) to 210 (son). Like others I seem to carry a little extra power and a couple extra knots, plus I am very carefull when I trim on down wind. It seems if I trim a little slow there I'm behind the drag curve on final and run out of energy when trying to flare. So I trim to a little higher airspeed and keep a little back pressure to maintain target speed. That way if I err, I err on the slightly higher airspeed - really lower AOA - and keep a larger factor of safety.

I often do get a 3-point or modified 3-point (wheel on with tail slightly low) but am quick to add a little power if I flare a little high or sink rate starts rising.

PS - I hope my wife does not see the "160" in this post!

Three point

My RV is a -4 I have no -8 time but the physics are the same. Solo in a level landing, wheel landing all the waight is directly over the main wheels or about there so solo wheel landings are great. With a guy in back the balance is shifted to the rear and so the waight is now behind the main wheels, with an aft CG when doing a wheel landing as soon as the wheels touch the heavy tail drops and you?re flying again, the best way to solve this is to land three point with a passenger, I choose to err on the side of being slightly tail low, this ?about? blocks any chance of regaining flight.

Actually Russ, there is quite a bit of difference in the way the -4 and the -8 handle and land with a passenger, and trying to three point the -8 in that condition without a lot of practice is going to likely lead to grief. I wouldn't advise it to someone still learning the plane.

For me, Full pitch on the CS prop, and I carry 80 knots on base and 75 on final, with slightly nose heavy trim to provide a solid, but not heavy feel on the stick. I cut power completely over the fence and allow the plane to settle till just above the runway, holding level attitude as it approaches the pavement and reading about 65 knots. As speed bleeds off I then transition to a three pointer in the flair, which usually is a very smooth with a passenger. Three pointers work out very nicely with a passenger in the 140 to 220 range.

With a 140+ pounder in the back, I generally use about 30 degrees of flaps (solo I only us 20). I have found using full flaps does not give me as smooth a plant. I've not found any reason whatsoever to wheel land it other than if needed to come in hotter for wind. At the flair she is just above stall and the tail touches down either a tad before or after the mains, but often right about the same time. Reviewing videos of the landings, it appears she puts em all on the ground at the same time but it could be an illusion.

Solo, I use pretty much the same numbers but only half flaps. The tail generally touches down AFTER the mains so its sort of a wheelie, but VERY tail low. I defintely prefer the 8 with some weight in the back. solo I strap a parachute back there and that seems to be all that is needed. Just takes more trim input to balance properly once power is reduced abeam the numbers.

Course all of this is totally incumbant upon configuration. Mine is Hartzell CS up front and Concord battery & ELT in the back, aft of the baggage and it works out really well. I would imagine a battery up front would totally change the dymanic and cause the preference for wheelies all the time. Thus far, thankfully, my 8 has not shown any issue with three pointers. That or I am too pig headed to let it. lol.

Man.. all this talk about the handling qualities of the -8 is getting me thinking... maybe I should've built a -7! But, no... no way.

Aren't a lot of these flight situations we discuss in the -8 applicable to some extent to other tandem aircraft in the GA fleet? The severity of the effect on CG location is different per aircraft, sure, but I would think many of them [tandem aircraft] experience it some way, some how.

aviationgeek84 said:

Man.. all this talk about the handling qualities of the -8 is getting me thinking... maybe I should've built a -7! But, no... no way.

Aren't a lot of these flight situations we discuss in the -8 applicable to some extent to other tandem aircraft in the GA fleet? The severity of the effect on CG location is different per aircraft, sure, but I would think many of them [tandem aircraft] all experience it some way, some how.

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The -8 is not at all a difficult airplane to land, just slightly quirky. The actual touchdown is, IMHO, exactly like a Cessna 120/140, probably because the gear are identical in design. The -8 is more forgiving though, because it has much greater control authority.

It is different compared to the RVs with round springs landing gears.

There are a lot of taildraggers, especially vintage airplanes, that are much more demanding than the -8.

aviationgeek84 said:

Aren't a lot of these flight situations we discuss in the -8 applicable to some extent to other tandem aircraft in the GA fleet? The severity of the effect on CG location is different per aircraft, sure, but I would think many of them [tandem aircraft] experience it some way, some how.

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Many type-certificated tandem aircraft have the aircraft flown solo from the rear seat. The passenger seat (front seat) is very close to the CG, so adding a passenger has only a small effect on CG position. Variations in pilot weight will be smaller than the difference in rear seat weight in an RV between passenger and no passenger.

Does an 8A have these quirks?

I would love to hear from some 8A flyers out there. Does the tricycle gear make any difference in landing with a passenger or with aft center of gravity?
Thanks,

Many type-certificated tandem aircraft have the aircraft flown solo from the rear seat.

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Good point - one that I thought of as I was falling asleep last night.

back seat passenger landinga

Simple when you are on climbout find the trim setting that gives you neutral controlls hands off no pitch change re set this for landing i have had up to 300lbs individuals in the back no problem.

cyril

Yes, adding a touch of power as you approach the flare can help a lot.

flickroll said:

I've got about 50 hours in my RV-8. Previous tailwheel time was 350 hours in a Citabria, and 200 hours in a Christen Eagle II. What I found early on was the -8 does not like to be landed in a 3 point attitude. So I started using wheelies for landing and after a few hours could do a pretty good job of it. At this point I believe I'm relatively competent at it and more times than not can grease it in, unless Mother Nature throws me a curve and humbles me with a few wind gusts. But all in all I feel pretty confident landing the airplane.

HOWEVER, almost all of my flying has been solo. I have found that the few times I've had a passenger in the rear seat I NEVER get anywhere close to a greaser, and usually get a couple of hops before things get steady. And the other bad thing is that since I rarely have a passenger I don't get much practice at it. Sooooo.......what is the best method of landing an -8 with a rear seat passenger (~200#)? Wheelie with a little power carried during the landing? Something else?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Click to expand...

Try using neutral stick trim pressure on final when solo and a little forwared stick trim (nose down) when dual. I shared this with several locals and they started making really consistent wheel landings. I get a bounce once in a while but not often. Rod
RV-3, RV-4, RV-8, RV-8
Stuart S-51 (soon to fly)

aviationgeek84 said:

Man.. all this talk about the handling qualities of the -8 is getting me thinking... maybe I should've built a -7! But, no...

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You made the right choice with the 8. Its not hard at all to handle and is very well behaved on roll out, certainly not much different than a C-140 or Luscombe, neither of which are hard to hold in a straight line. God gave us FEET for a reason. You just have to remember you have 'em. The 8 takes less rudder input on final and about the same on the ground on roll out. The main diff is that it just comes in hotter and THAT takes getting used to at first. Once you learn to tweek the trim to where it wants to be, landings are a cinch. Again, I think the whole wheel landing v three point is more an issue of build configuration. Mine seems able to trim out what ever is needed and three point it in, wheel it in, or, if I screw up, stall it in on all three.

The one thing I do not like is the electric trim sensitivity in level flight. Until you are done and truly stabilized, its very easy to hunt and peck for proper trim for level flight. A simple bump on the switch will have you climbing 300 fpm and when you counter it, off you go the other way. Probably why I am not enamored of electric trim, at least not the RC Allan one in my 8. BUT...once stable, its not so bad and flys level nicely.

Scott,

Thanks for the in-depth reply. I am definitely happy with my -8 choice... and I think I'll be fine. I'm very comfortable in tailwheel aircraft and they all act a little differently (tailwheel a/c) anyway.

Good thread, though. Good discussion.

cyrilmclavin said:

Simple when you are on climbout find the trim setting that gives you neutral controlls hands off no pitch change re set this for landing i have had up to 300lbs individuals in the back no problem.

cyril

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Thanks!

While my RV-8 is still a long way from flying, I will try to remember this piece of advice when the time comes.

Steve Ashby said:

I would love to hear from some 8A flyers out there. Does the tricycle gear make any difference in landing with a passenger or with aft center of gravity?
Thanks,

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The nice thing about the -8(a) is the ability to balance the load with it's
front and rear baggage compartments. With a 225 lb rear passanger and
50 lbs of baggage in the front and back (100 total) I'm still just under an
inch forward of the aft CG limit at minimum fuel.

As far as handling, at the above load and after 3 hours in flight, pitch is
more sensitive than if I were solo, but not overly so. Adding 5 extra knots
over the fence only makes you float further down the runway. I've never flown an -8, but my RV-6 at or near the rear CG limit was more of a challange to land than my -8A and I did carry a few extra knots over the fence
in the -6 when heavy. But the landing techniques are different. I always
wheel landed the -6 and the extra speed gave a few extra seconds to
get rid of all the vertical movement before touchdown. In the -8A, you flare
and try and hold it off as long as possible. Extra speed in this case just wastes runway.

Suggest a little steeper approach as well. That and 5 knots+a little power til touchdown has made a big difference.

wera710 said:

The one thing I do not like is the electric trim sensitivity in level flight. Until you are done and truly stabilized, its very easy to hunt and peck for proper trim for level flight. A simple bump on the switch will have you climbing 300 fpm and when you counter it, off you go the other way. Probably why I am not enamored of electric trim, at least not the RC Allan one in my 8. BUT...once stable, its not so bad and flys level nicely.

Click to expand...

The Safety-Trim controller, when coupled with an airspeed switch, makes electric trim in the -8 very easy to use. Once your airspeed is above the airspeed switch setpoint, the trim servo travel speed is reduced by a presettable amount. I have this in my -8 and really like it. At lower speeds the servo moves the trim tab at a faster rate.

A Lightbulb just exploded in my head. lol. Now...how to retrofit? Man, I so want to just fly! hehe.