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ELT Purchase, Options.

C

carl nank

Well Known Member
I pulled a lot of information regarding the various ELT's out there and I find it difficult to filter out the fluff to make a final decision.

I know we need 406Mhz frequency. Some have military (243.0 and 121.5. Some have GPS interface option (more money). Dongles for programming, and some fluff I am not sure I understand. Following are some examples.


Kannad 406AF Compact, No GPS is advertised on this forum but, the price is $995 at Skyview Aviation, $899 at ACS. w/antenna but GPS is an option (More Money).It appears to be about another $1,000 for GPS. 6 year lithium battery.

AmeriKing AK-451-2, NO GPS, Triple freq. 406, 121.5 and 243 military, 5 year lithium battery, for $849 from ACS. GPS is about another $2,000 ($total 2,700).

ARTX ME406 ELT no GPShas 2 emergency frequencies (121.5 and 406.028 Mhz) No military) 5 year Lithium battery, whip Antenna for $945 from ACS.

Looks like pricing is somewhat competitive, Ameriking being the lowest price. GPS seems out of budget range. Will be making purchase of one in June.

Do we really need GPS?

What experiance and recommendations do you have with ELT's?
 
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Add a $599 406 one from ACK...

...scheduled for July 2009.

http://www.ackavionics.com/

...or a retrofit kit for $560 if you have the remote switch already mounted.

Hopefully, this should cause the other guys to lower their prices when it comes on the market...:)

Don't worry about the 243 MHz output. With the 406 MHz being satellite detected, the 121.5 MHz output is for close in direction finding.
 
carl nank said:
Kannad 406AF Compact, No GPS is advertised on this forum but, the price is $995 at Skyview Aviation, $899 at ACS. w/antenna but GPS is an option (More Money).
Click to expand...

Actually, if you note on ACS' website, their price of $899 is for the kit that includes everything except the antenna. Our price at SkyView includes the antenna. Plus VAF members get free shipping anywhere in the US.
 
I know of no mandate to have a 406 Mhz ELT in the USA. It may make sense if you want to travel abroad.

GPS does provide essentially correct location in transmissions but 406 frequency alone is far better than 121.5 MHz. There is a chart somewhere showing the improvements.
 
Don't forget to look at the cost of replacement batteries. As I recall, some are pretty steep, even amortized over 5-6 years.
 
Batteries

hi gang, it's been a while since I looked at the ELT's.

I thought I saw one that took regular "D" cells that you would probably change during your annual?


Cheers, Terry.
 
Really?

amilder said:
Don't forget to look at the cost of replacement batteries. As I recall, some are pretty steep, even amortized over 5-6 years.
Click to expand...

Why could you not simply strap a small sealed lead acid battery to the outside of the ELT at replacement time. Depending on Voltage etc?

Frank
 
frankh said:
Why could you not simply strap a small sealed lead acid battery to the outside of the ELT at replacement time. Depending on Voltage etc?

Frank
Click to expand...

Because the ELT must be installed in accordance with it's installation instructions. It also must use the batteries specified for the unit.
 
terry.mortimore said:
I thought I saw one that took regular "D" cells that you would probably change during your annual?
Click to expand...

I don't think any of the new TSO-9whatever (406Mhz) use D cells. the TSO requirements as to power output and duration are too high, so they all use a $$ Lithium-something.
 
But the Lithium batteries...

amilder said:
I don't think any of the new TSO-9whatever (406Mhz) use D cells. the TSO requirements as to power output and duration are too high, so they all use a $$ Lithium-something.
Click to expand...

...do seem to have a longer 5 year life before a mandatory change...:)
 
Thanks,

Actually, if you note on ACS' website, their price of $899 is for the kit that includes everything except the antenna. Our price at SkyView includes the antenna. Plus VAF members get free shipping anywhere in the US.__________________

Skyview, I apologise! You are correct and I miswrote. The ACS does not include the antenna. I did not know about free shipping. That helps.

Thanks for the help to all of you. Thanks Mel regarding the yet to be released ACK. I hope to finish my project early July. I may wait as long as I can and hope I can get the ACK. If not, I may have to purchase a 121 unit and use it until I have to go to 406 or the price comes down on them. I am retired and money is an issue.
 
carl nank said:
Do we really need GPS?
Click to expand...

Yes and no to GPS aiding on ELT or Epirb.Depends how quickly you want them to set out to rescue you.
No GPS - they (Rescue) know instantly (by geostationary satellite) WHO has set off elt or epirb but realistically no idea where (only know which hemisphere). Must wait for next pass of low earth orbit satellite to get an accurate location (5km from memory). You could be lucky and have loe sat pass very soon or may not be one past for up to 2 hours. Only then do they know where to sent rescue and only then do thay start to move towards you.
IF GPS aided ELT/EPIRB location to 5 metres known instantaneously (by Geostationary sat that receives initial signal). No need to wait for low orbit sat to pass and they can launch rescue with no delay.
John
Melbourne
Australia
 
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121 vs 406 for accuracy

rjtjrt said:
Yes and no to GPS aiding on ELT or Epirb.Depends how quickly you want them to set out to rescue you.
No GPS - they (Rescue) know instantly (by geostationary satellite) WHO has set off elt or epirb but realistically no idea where (only know which hemisphere). Must wait for next pass of low earth orbit satellite to get an accurate location (5km from memory). You could be lucky and have loe sat pass very soon or may not be one past for up to 2 hours. Only then do they know where to sent rescue and only then do thay start to move towards you.
IF GPS aided ELT/EPIRB location to 5 metres known instantaneously (by Geostationary sat that receives initial signal). No need to wait for low orbit sat to pass and they can launch rescue with no delay.
John
Melbourne
Australia
Click to expand...


The accuracy of a 121 ELT is between 5 and 10 nm radius, but is no longer monitored by satellite.
The 406, on the other hand, is much more accurate, usually within 2nm, and is monitored by satellite.
A 406 with GPS installed, gives an exact location, of course.
 
PLB or ELT?

In the June 2008 issue of "The Aviation Consumer", an analysis and comparison of this situation was presented.

Five PLBs were evaluated, all with GPS-enhancement. Only one of these had user-replacable batteries and all were under $700 except for one.

In regards to the battery situation, I have seen formal testing of Lithium-Ion batteries and what happens when they cook-off. Ladies and gentlemen, it ain't pretty!

The down-side to a PLB is that you have to activate it when you suspect an off-airport landing that requires SAR assistance. The upside of a PLB is that you can take it with you if you go hiking, boating, motorcycling, etc. to places that take you out of the reach of civilization and cell phone towers.

I have contacted "The Aviation Consumer" for permission in sharing the specifications of the aforementioned PLBs.
 
rjtjrt said:
Yes and no to GPS aiding on ELT or Epirb.Depends how quickly you want them to set out to rescue you.
No GPS - they (Rescue) know instantly (by geostationary satellite) WHO has set off elt or epirb but realistically no idea where (only know which hemisphere). Must wait for next pass of low earth orbit satellite to get an accurate location (5km from memory). You could be lucky and have loe sat pass very soon or may not be one past for up to 2 hours. Only then do they know where to sent rescue and only then do thay start to move towards you.
IF GPS aided ELT/EPIRB location to 5 metres known instantaneously (by Geostationary sat that receives initial signal). No need to wait for low orbit sat to pass and they can launch rescue with no delay.
Click to expand...
But, presumably if you filed a flight plan, they should be able to figure out which direction to send the SAR aircraft even before the low orbiting satellite gives a good position. So while it would be nice to have GPS position in the ELT output, I don't plan on spending big bucks to buy that capability.
 
I believe that some of the ELTs...

Kevin Horton said:
But, presumably if you filed a flight plan, they should be able to figure out which direction to send the SAR aircraft even before the low orbiting satellite gives a good position. So while it would be nice to have GPS position in the ELT output, I don't plan on spending big bucks to buy that capability.
Click to expand...

...transmit the position of the last data received from the avionics GPS (via a RS-232 connection)

If you had an in-flight electrical malfunction, your final landing spot could be miles away from the GPS position that the ELT is reporting.

I'm not sure if there is any error checking software that looks for this possible condition.

Of course, if the GPS is integral to the ELT, the above does not apply, but the GPS antenna must be looking skyward in the final resting position of the plane.

I agree with Kevin, save your $$ on this GPS option bit....:)
 
Money is also an issue for me. That is why I went, 121.5 and am wiring for APRS.

When I am ready to start traveling, I will most likely buy a PLB or whatever value option there is at that time.
 
craigvince said:
The accuracy of a 121 ELT is between 5 and 10 nm radius, but is no longer monitored by satellite.
Click to expand...
The 5 and 10 nm figure refers to satellite monitoring so is not relevant now. The 121.5 ELT can likely be homed in on very closely with ground or airplane equipment.
A 406 with GPS installed, gives an exact location, of course.
Click to expand...
Well, let's make that a close location, assuming everything works correctly. Exact is more of a concept than a reality.

Some of the things that need to happen: The ELT needs to trigger, the antenna needs to wind up in an orientation where GPS reception is possible, the ELT antenna cable needs to be intact, the aircraft needs to be in a location where GPS reception is possible, the ELT needs to be undamaged by the crash, etc.
 
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Larry, your comment gets to the real issue. What conditions would you expect the ELT, PLB or whatever to either lead to your rescue or remains recovery.

I don't expect an ELT to activate in a crash and do any good. I carry a 406 MHz PLB with GPS that will be activated in flight IF conditions allow. If I survive the off airport event and can use the PLB then great.

Eventually I should install an APRS system which along with the PLB and typical flight following (not 100%) should be adequate.
 
craigvince said:
The accuracy of a 121 ELT is between 5 and 10 nm radius, but is no longer monitored by satellite.
The 406, on the other hand, is much more accurate, usually within 2nm, and is monitored by satellite.
A 406 with GPS installed, gives an exact location, of course.
Click to expand...

I agree re accuracy.
My point was that the response time markedly different between GPS and Non GPS ELT/EPIRB. Long wait with non GPS before they come. It made the decision for me to strongly want GPS with ELT/EPIRB.
John
 
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Endless debate

The bottom line is this:

How much money are you willing to spend on technology that might or might not help in an emergency? There's no guarantees that any of it will work when you need it most. It's kind of like buying a home security system and paying to have it monitored. What you're really paying for is peace of mind. Anything more beyond that should be considered a bonus at best. Maybe having a 406 ELT will get your wife to fly with you. Maybe my having a Spot Messenger means my better half allows me to fly more. Maybe having an APRS means you'll be more comfortable flying cross country. Maybe, maybe, maybe it will all work if you go down. Maybe not.

We each should decide how much we want to put in our planes. That's what's so cool about experimentals. We get to decide! :)
 
Consider this before you buy AmeriKing!

I sent my 121.5 unit in for warranty service five weeks ago. Despite four calls and promises to "find it and get it out right away", it is still MIA. The Unit (purchased from ACS a year ago) was DOA when I tried to operate it for the first time...:mad:

Not bashing, just reporting the facts!
 
carl nank said:
Will a DAR approve a PLB when he does the airworthiness inspection?
Click to expand...
A PLB does NOT meet the requirements for an ELT as required under part 91.207. 91.207(a)(1) calls for an approved automatic type ELT. A PLB is not automatic.
 
Carl, go buy a cheap 121.5 MHz ELT with user replaceable Eveready D cell batteries and install it. It is required dead weight.
 
I am planning on flying next year.
Do you think I should wait for the news on the ELT issue or
purchase and put in the plane now and forget about it.

Thanks,
 
Bruce, as long as you can do the wiring later you can wait a bit. What do you expect to hear? We know that Canada "may" require a 406 MHz ELT someday. Some Caribbean nations may already but you need to check. No indication that the FAA will mandate them.

Are the benefits of 406 MHz (with or without GPS) of sufficient value to you IF the ELT activates to justify the cost? If not, maybe just get a cheap 121.5 MHz unit with upgrade to 406 (Hopefully the same wiring) possible in the future.
 
Bruce said:
I am planning on flying next year.
Do you think I should wait for the news on the ELT issue or
purchase and put in the plane now and forget about it.

Thanks,
Click to expand...

Bruce, I think anyone should wait as long as possible when purchasing any component for there project. New and improved items are coming to the market so fast, it's difficult to make the first flight with the latest and greatest. Just my experience and opinion.
 
GPS position data stored in ELT

n5lp said:
Some of the things that need to happen: The ELT needs to trigger, the antenna needs to wind up in an orientation where GPS reception is possible, the ELT antenna cable needs to be intact, the aircraft needs to be in a location where GPS reception is possible, the ELT needs to be undamaged by the crash, etc.
Click to expand...

The way I understand it, a GPS capable ELT can continually update GPS position data stored in internal memory. When the ELT is triggered, it transmits the last stored position, so GPS reception is not requried after the triggering event. However, the system is vulnerable to a loss of GPS data prior to being triggered, as well as damage to the ELT or its transmitting antenna.

Nevertheless, I intend to install a 406 MHz ELT in my -7 and feed it GPS data from an external GPS. It may not perform perfectly 100% of the time, but I believe that the alternatives are more vulnerable to failure than the new ELTs are.

I understand the temptation to go cheap with an old technology 121.5 MHz device, but we lost a pilot in a National Soaring Championsips in the mountains of Pennsylvania several years ago, and it was generally agreed by those involved with the recovery that they wouldn't have found the crash site until the leaves were off the trees in the fall, if then, except for the 406 MHz ELT that was installed in the sailplane.
 
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ACK $599.00 121.5/406 MHz ELT

As mentioned earlier in this thread, ACK Technologies has anounced a new 121.5/406 MHz ELT for which the final TSO aplication has been submitted to the FAA. Apporval is expected in July 2009, with deliveries anticipated to begin in August. The following information from the Installation and Operating Manual illustrates the significant advantage that this new technology offeres over the older gerneration elts.​


SECTION 1 406 MHz ELT OVERVIEW
​
THE MODEL E-01 121.5/406 MHz ELT IS DESIGNED FOR USE IN AIRCRAFT USED FOR GENERAL AND COMMERCIAL AVIATION. OLDER GENERATION ELT’S WERE VERY LIMITED IN THERE ABILITY TO RAPIDLY LOCATED AND IDENTIFY A DOWNED AIRCRAFT. OFTEN IT TOOK SEVERAL PASSES OF THE ORBITING SATELLITES TO GET AN APPROXIMATE FIX ON A DOWNED AIRCRAFT. THE OLDER GENERATION ELT’S GAVE RESCUERS NO INFORMATION ON TYPE OF AIRCRAFT, OWNER/OPERATOR OR CONTACT INFORMATION. THE NEW GENERATION 406 MHz ELT’S PROVIDE MUCH BETTER AND FASTER LOCATION ACCURACY ALONG WITH PROVIDING INFORMATION TO SEARCH AND RESCUE ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT THE AIRCRAFT TYPE, OWNERSHIP AND EMERGENCY CONTACT INFORMATION. LOCATION ACCURACY WITH OLDER GENERATION ELT’S WAS LIMITED TO ABOUT A 15 MILE RADIUS AND COULD TAKE SEVERAL HOURS TO PROVIDE ACCURATE LOCATION DATA. FOR NEW GENERATION 406 MHz ELT’S WITHOUT GPS POSITION INFORMATION THE AVERAGE TIME TO PROCESS AND IDENTIFY THE AIRCRAFT LOCATION IS 1-2 HOURS WITH A SEARCH RADIUS OF ABOUT 2 MILES. ​
WITH GPS INFORMATION THE TIME TO LOCATE THE AIRCRAFT POSITION IS 10 MINUTES OR LESS WITH AN ACCURACY OF ABOUT 300 FEET . THE MODEL E-04 ELT MAY BE INSTALLED WITHOUT INTERFACING IT WITH THE AIRCRAFT GPS SYSTEM HOWEVER WE STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT WHEN AVAILABLE THE GPS DATA BE SUPPLIED TO THE ELT. FOR AIRCRAFT WHICH DO NOT HAVE GPS DATA AVAILABLE THE UNIT CAN BE INTERFACED WITH A LOW COST GPS DATA RECEIVER SUCH AS THE GARMIN GPS 16XHVS WHICH IS AVAILABLE FOR LESS THAN $100.00. YOU MUST REGISTER THIS BEACON BEFORE ACTIVATING IT FOR USE WITH THE COSPAS/SARSAT SYSTEM. FAILURE TO DO SO CAN RESULT IN MONETARY FINES AND OTHER SANCTIONS. YOU MUST ALSO UPDATE YOUR REGISTRATION EVERY TWO YEARS. TO REGISTER YOUR BEACON SEE SECTION 11 and 12 ADDRESSING ELT PROGRAMMING AND REGISTRATION.​


 
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My advice is to install a cheap 121.5 with D cell batteries, I like artex.

I would back it up with a SPOT satellite messenger, and until Aug 3rd...they're running a rebate that refunds the full purchase price if you activate with full service for 2 years. So for ~$300, you can get better technology than any 406ELT.
 
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