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Rudder trailing edge question

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

LettersFromFlyoverCountry

Well Known Member
I've had this "new" rudder sitting around and have avoided building it until now. It's all done, more or less, cept for the leading edge -- no big deal . The trailing edge is currently ProSealed together and clecoed to the angle and curing.

But I'll be darned if these instructions make sense (and by the way, talk bout a reverse culture shock. Once you get to the fuselage, you don't have much in the way of narrative in the instructions. But then to go BACK to when there was a lot of narrative, man, there's just a lot of useless words there gumming comprehension up. But I digress).

Here's the way, I THINK the instructions say.

1) Pull all the rivets in and tape 'em down. Flip, rudder over.
2) Pound against a backrivet plate but not all the way in (using what, by the way? A mushroom set or a backrivet set?. Do every 5th one or so.
3) Go back and do the others, but not all the way.
4) Flip it over and smash 'em.

This last part confuses me because the instructions talk about not final riveting all the rivets in the same direction (?) because you could get a "hook effect." Huh? I have no clue what that's trying to say.

And do I have the instructions correct that in the final step, what used to be the driven side is now going to be against the backrivet plate?
 
Bob,

You got it, you just need to use the back-rivet set.

A local 9 builder gave me a 8' piece of steel to use as the back riveting plate. This allowed my to weight the rudder down keeping the TE straight and flat for it's entire length. That way any crookedness was avoided. After you partially set the rivets using the back-rivet set, you turn the rudder over and finish it agaist the back-riveting plate by hitting the factory head of the rivets with a mushroom set. Clear as mud?

Here is what mine turned out looking like, these are the shop heads. More details and pics here. Good luck!

050807_004.jpg
 
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Bob Collins said:
I've had this "new" rudder sitting around and have avoided building it until now. It's all done, more or less, cept for the leading edge -- no big deal . The trailing edge is currently ProSealed together and clecoed to the angle and curing.

But I'll be darned if these instructions make sense (and by the way, talk bout a reverse culture shock. Once you get to the fuselage, you don't have much in the way of narrative in the instructions. But then to go BACK to when there was a lot of narrative, man, there's just a lot of useless words there gumming comprehension up. But I digress).

Here's the way, I THINK the instructions say.

1) Pull all the rivets in and tape 'em down. Flip, rudder over.
2) Pound against a backrivet plate but not all the way in (using what, by the way? A mushroom set or a backrivet set?. Do every 5th one or so.
3) Go back and do the others, but not all the way.
4) Flip it over and smash 'em.

This last part confuses me because the instructions talk about not final riveting all the rivets in the same direction (?) because you could get a "hook effect." Huh? I have no clue what that's trying to say.

And do I have the instructions correct that in the final step, what used to be the driven side is now going to be against the backrivet plate?
Click to expand...

Bob-

On the -9 we've got lots of these to do--rudder, ailerons, elevators, flaps--so we have to get pretty good at them:

1. Yes, tape them all in (on whichever side of the rudder you're going to see the most). Make sure you clean excess sealant out of the dimple on the side that will nest the head of the rivet.
2. Use back-rivet set first. Rivet center one then outer-most ones, then split the difference until they're all set just a little. You keep splitting the difference to avoid going from one end to the other all in a straight line, which might lead to the hook Van's warns against.
3. Flip it over and use a flush rivet set on the machined heads and smash the tails into the back rivet plate until they no longer protrude above the skin. During this stage, split the difference as in stage #2 above.
4. For good measure, I also use spring clamps spaced along the edge to hold it flat onto the surface while riveting the first side

This isn't the only way to do it, but so far I've got 5 almost-perfectly straight trailing edges.

Hope this helps. Let me know if I can clarify further.
 
RV7Factory said:
Bob,

You got it, you just need to use the back-rivet set.

A local 9 builder gave me a 8' piece of steel to use as the back riveting plate. This allowed my to weight the rudder down keeping the TE straight and flat for it's entire length. That way any crookedness was avoided. After you partially set the rivets using the back-rivet set, you turn the rudder over and finish it agaist the back-riveting plate by hitting the factory head of the rivets with a mushroom set. Clear as mud?

Here is what mine turned out looking like, these are the shop heads. More details and pics here. Good luck!

050807_004.jpg
Click to expand...

Your's look great Brad--its tough to get the tails to form that perfectly! I concur with Brad's recommendation to get a long back rivet plate. My 5 ft piece of steel cost about $8 at Lowe's and then I took it to a machine shop and had them "grain" (smooth) it for $10.00. Much better than anything Avery or Cleaveland sells.
 
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Thanks Steve... let's just say I got lucky, but that huge back riveting plate sure helped. If I were building a 9 and had all those riveted TEs to deal with I would run, not walk, to the metal shop and get myself a big hunk-o-steel.

BTW... Your Inbox is full. ;)
 
RV7Factory said:
Here is what mine turned out looking like, these are the shop heads. More details and pics here. Good luck!
Click to expand...
No doubt this is a symptom of my advancing age, but I think there's nothing quite so beautiful as a beautiful backriveted flush rivet as you've shown. I think a whole calendar of finely set rivets would be cool. Yep, I'm old.
 
old vs new rudder

What is the difference between the old and the new rudder. Is the new rudder only for the 7 or is it also for the 8? Why did Van's change the design?
 
Ingo Weise said:
What is the difference between the old and the new rudder. Is the new rudder only for the 7 or is it also for the 8? Why did Van's change the design?
Click to expand...

Spin characteristics. RV-7 builders have the option of which rudder to use.

Read this:

http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb02-6-1.pdf


Old RV-7 rudder=RV-8 rudder. These have the folded (bent) trailing edges. The skin is one piece.

New RV-7 rudder is the RV-9 rudder. It's wider and taller. These have the AEX wedge and the "double-flush" riveted trailing edges. Therein lies the challenge. Gluing the wedge in place then setting nice rivets along with a straight trailing edge is the goal. Comes as two separate skins which makes putting the stiffeners in easier.

Van's RV-7A prototype still has the smaller folded rudder by the way. I don't think they're too worried about this.
 
I finished my rudder yesterday afternoon and the results are great. I have to say the warnings Van's places in their instructions are valuable in terms of raising one's awareness, but holy sh*t, what overkill! Just by followinig the steps outlined (and understanding what they are) the rudder trailing edge should be fine. After reading the instructions, I had the impression that if I did one thing out of order or blasted a rivet .005 seconds more, I'd effectively order a photon strike on Toledo. :D Like I said, it's interesting to be farther along on a project -- and in the "sparse instructions" stage and then go back to an early part and the *nagging wife* portion of the instructions and see the difference.

and I hate to say it, but I actually MISS working with ProSeal.
 
txaviator said:
You "miss working with Pro Seal?"

Wanna build some -9 tanks? :D :D :D
Click to expand...
You know, I actually wouldn't mind helping someone build some tanks. I think building tanks and working with ProSeal is like going to the amusement park and riding the baddest, scariest ride there is. You know in your heart that you're not going to die. But as you careen down the 65 degree incline on the first hill, just for a second it occurs to you that you might.

So what does everyone do when it's over? Runs around to get back in line and go again. It's just that we have other rides to get to.

However, keep in mind the brain blocks out trauma. There are times I look at pictures of my kids when they were really young and think, "that was a great time." And it was, made better if you forget the time they threw up pumpkin pie on you when you were plaing "bouncy" with 'em.
 
Speaking from experience... if you can I HIGHLEY recommend squeezing the rudder trailing edge rivets. If you haven't invested in a pnumatic squeezer it will pay for itself in about 30 minutes. Squeezed rivets IMO turn out MUCH better.
 
Bob Collins said:
working with ProSeal is like going to the amusement park and riding the baddest, scariest ride there is.
Click to expand...

Wow dude.. actually flying the airplane is gonna make your head explode from the excitement! :D
 
Thanks for the in-depth descriptions, but still one question. I am trying this process on some scrap before committing to my rudder. I set all the rivets part way with the back rivet set, and then flipped over the work and put it back down on the backrivet plate. Now, the partially-set rivets are in contact with the backrivet plate, holding the skins up off the surface at a height equal to the length of the unset rivet tails (between 1/32? to 1/16?).

Now I finish setting the rivets using a mushroom set on the manufactured-heads with the backrivet plate underneath the work. However, when I try this on any given rivet, the protruding unset tails of the neighboring rivets prevent the rivet from being set, without me leaning down very hard on the rivet gun, which seems to cause the sheet metal and ?wedge? to distort.

What am I doing wrong?
 
JohnK said:
However, when I try this on any given rivet, the protruding unset tails of the neighboring rivets prevent the rivet from being set, without me leaning down very hard on the rivet gun, which seems to cause the sheet metal and ?wedge? to distort.
Click to expand...

John, I was thinking this process through and had the exact same question. Can anyone tell John & I how this is done?

MikeJ
 
I had the same problem, and ended up just flipping the rudder back over and shooting them with the manufactured heads against the back rivet plate. I'm satisfied with the results:)
 
It's only been 6 or 8 mnths since I did mine, but I don't remeber flipping the rudder. I pretty sure I just back riveted the whole thing. I did just like Van's said and did it in small steps. I would post a pix, but I can't seem to get image shack to work. I must be skipping a step. Build an airplane, but can't down load a pix. :) Any ways, mine came out straight.

Rick Maury
 
I just finished the empennage at Alexander tech center, and I don't believe we flipped it either. There we had a longish backrivet setup (24" ?), and partially set every 4-5 rivets. Then we just went back and did the rest without ever flipping. It looked very nice when done.
 
This seemed like a simple way to handle it. Just use the corner of the back rivet plate with the rudder turned at an angle. This lets the ajoining rivets hang over the plate. Turned out perfect. Whole process reads more complicated than it really is.

Bill S

 
Thanks!!!

I was stuck on the RV 7 Trailing edge and the double rivet method when i came on here and found great help. In the end my rivets turned out great thanks guys
 
Cleco it to an AL angle with Proseal as described and its a total non event. I was freaked out for about a week and a half until I finally committed to riveting mine. It was more of a pain to roll the leading edge. (and I did it in 3 sections)
 
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