Cheapest IFR platform

[rv8ch]

Just curious if anyone has come up with a very cheap IFR configuration. I'm not planning to equip my 8 for IFR, but might change my mind at the last minute.

This is coming to a head since I need to order my radio, and I need to decide between the SL-30 ($3115) which has some nice IFR features, and the SL-40 ($1304) which is just a great comm radio.

I also am on the list for a GRT Sport ($2795), but if I go IFR, then I'll want the regular GRT EFIS ($5995) for its CDI/HSI.

Just these two items add about $4800, and I'm just getting started.

I guess I could go for a "cheap" external CDI for about $1500. Anyone have any hints for getting an inexpensive IFR platform?

[Ironflight]

Mickey,

I'm sure that you will get a lot of responses, both on the legal requirements for IFR, as well as the practical aspects of what you really would need. I would be hesitant to answer the first for you, because I don't know if your rules would be differnt from ours. The second, well, that all depends on what you are comfortable with, how you are trained, etc.

I will, however, give you my thoughts (now that I am flying), on the only thing I am disappointed with on my -8. Of course, it has nothing to do with the airplane, it was my own decisionmaking. I am naturally cheap - I guess that is the way I was raised. So Idecided to save a little money by going with a low-end audio panel and #2 Comm. Now don't get me wrong, they both work exactly as advertised, and pretty darn well. BUt I knowingly gave up a few features that now I kind of wish I had - stereo Intercom (for music), 2-channel Comm monitoring (well, actually 3, since I have two Comm's, and can monitor both), a cell phone interface....All of which I can live without...but why?

I probably saved myself $1000 by "cheaping out" on these two units, and I ended up spending about $92K on the airplane. Would I have noticed the difference in my checking account if I had gone for what I really wanted? Now that I am not building, and money isn't flowing to ACS and Van's like water from a fire hose...I suddenly realized I should have bought what I wanted the first time. Because now, I'll certainly go get what I want, and do a retrofit, and then will have to take a loss on the first units.

I fully understand and sympathize with folks on a limited budget. But will you notice a 1 or 2 (or 5) percent difference? I'm sure you can find something else to work on while waiting for the money to come in for the right radios....

Just my opinion, of course...now onto the debates about VOR or No VOR!

Paul

[gmcjetpilot]

Keep in mind this is MIN equip for IFR not the most you can stuff in the panel or everything you want. I can't disagree with Paul F. Dye above, but I will take the opposite side of the coin, going MIN (cost, weight and complexity). Of course going MIN also minimizes utility, but at least to an acceptable level for the mission's you intend to fly. On the other hand who would not want a GNS 530 /480.

Mickey you hit the NAIL. IFR equipment is EXPENSIVE. It is not a trivial add on. The extra antennas and wires cause more weight, increased drag (due to weight or external antennas) and of course $$$. How much IFR and what kind of IFR are you going to fly. GPS carries the cost burden of NAV updates.

Consider going ALL VFR equip as you describe and just add a stand alone nav like: VAL all in one IFR unit

Another standalone idea is a used Escort VOR. Remember they had those LED segmented display head with the VOR/LOC/COM receiver incorporated in one unit. However a used out of production radio may not make as much sense. You mention the SL-30 with a CDI head as "compromise", which also makes sense from a minimalist and $$$ stand point, while getting good utility. Narco also made several all-in-on heads with everything up to GS/LOC/VOR/MB, like the Val but with analog display, which I like. They are found used and new as they are still in production. Got to look at the wallet and ask yourself how much IFR am I going to do?

HERE is my logic for going MIN IFR (like Mickey) and HOW:

Look we all know what the required FLIGHT instruments are, there are spelled out in detail in the FAR's. The controversy is if a experimental EFIS counts. I am not going to make a comment about that or step into that debate.

Again like EFIS above there is discussion of what GPS is legal and what is a legal installation. Again I am not going to step into that debate.

However I will comment on min NAV, and what one item can give you a whole lot of legal capability with out spending $1000's for equipment and $100's a year for electronic NAV data base updates. Also keep in mind there is nothing wrong with backing your situational awareness with a non-IFR approved GPS.

Bare min IFR, regarding NAVIGATION: The FAR's are delightfully Vague. All you need is NAV equipment you plan on using for the intended flight. Clearly in the lower 48, USA, you can take off (many times dead reckoning) to vectors or intercept a radial off a VOR. You could happily fly coast to coast, across the USA on the airway system and make a VOR approach where the VOR is off the field or the FAF is defined but two VORs. You can switch back and forth to get the intersection. Of course if you have LOC freq's and a simple MB, you can do LOC approaches to even lower MINS. Also ATC can call the FAF for you many times. Of course there are ASR/PARs approaches. I did a lot of IFR in a basic Piper Tomahawk with just one VOR/LOC and a basic six pack elect/vac instruments. Later I got a MB receiver and that opened up all the LOC approaches which are almost always found with an ILS. Now would I do hard ball IFR, that way? NO

So all you need is one VOR receiver/head. Most VOR's also come with LOC freq's. TO use a LOC you usually need a ADF or MB at least to ID the OM/FAF. ATC with surveillance radar at that airport can call the OM or FAF for you. Obviously even a hand held VFR only Garmin has IFR approach way points, although illegal to use it exclusively its a great tool as a back-up.

With a portable GPS, basic EFIS (or traditional flight instruments) and just one VOR/LOC (may be a MB), you can file IFR (if that is the only NAV you intend on using).

Also you are not stuck with expensive GPS NAV data base updates. Just buy paper charts/plates as needed. To buy, install and maintain an IFR GPS cost $1000's of dollars. A used ESCORT NARCO VOR/LOC head is not expensive. You can also go full meal deal and buy the VAL head with GS/LOC/VOR/MB all in one. Who needs an IFR GPS. Don't get me wrong I want one but it is expensive, and updates are a burden to remain legal to exclusively use it for IFR. I don't plan on flying that much IFR in my RV. As an airline pilot I fly IFR enough, and we do use nav data bases in the flight management computer, but we still use Paper. With a few paper enroute charts and approach plates, the OLD school VOR works.

NOW let me tell you my mission. I don't plan on filing IFR routinely. If I am flying local I am not going to go IFR for the fun of it. Cross country I will try to fly VFR, but there are times it will be nice (safer and legal) to file or POP-UP. Examples are say a marine layer or a little FOG in the morning grounds you (for VFR), but near by weather and airports are VFR; you could file and with a short IMC climb get on top to VFR conditions and on your merry way. Now lets say your en-route, VFR and find the broken under cast is now starting to become solid. The destination still has high ceilings and good Vis. You are enjoying a good tail wind, and instead of ducking down low to finish the flight, you continue at altitude. Now you need an IFR let down on an airway. POP-UP and get it, let down to a VFR conditions to the airport. If you had to, you could fly a VOR or LOC approach.

Staying really current may be a pain in you bare min IFR plane. I fly IFR at work so it's not an issue for me. You can (should) fly and practice attitude instrument flying skills (scan-x/check-interpret-control) with a safety pilot in VFR conditions. To me key and the foundation to all IFR operations and procedures is the scan and control. You can practice procedures on a home PC. However GA simulators are getting very good. A good 1-2 hour SIM session with a good instructor in a full GA Sim can be a great workout and cover situations, weather, winds and emergency scenarios you may not experience in a year of IFR flying. Also they can turn the performance up to match the RV. Flying IFR in a C-172 may not be a good transfer of knowledge and skill to the RV. We all agree I am sure single pilot IFR in a RV means an autopilot on board.

With "IFR" flight instruments one VOR can get you a lot of capability on the cheap. Obviously an IFR GPS is the only way to really go, but it comes at a premium price. The unit will cost several thousand ($3K to $8K not uncommon) and the data base will need maintenance. I don't know all the legal and operational issues with IFR GPS in general aviation, because I never have owned or used one. When I was flight instructing, IFR GPS where just coming in, not common. Approaches where overlay only and not stand alone at the time.

George

[sprucemoose]

I agree with George here (holy cow, twice in one month!) Having also flown a lot of IFR with just a vacuum 6-pack and a single VOR (in my CFII days) I am from the minimalist school of IFR.

My own panel is designed around a Dynon D-10 with backups for A/S and a compass, 2 axis A/P (Navaid and Altrak), a Garmin 196, and a used Narco 122 self contained ILS/VOR box. Also just one comm (Icom A200, a great radio, and a bargain. I paid $650 at Oshkosh new.) All total, I have around $8K in the panel, give or take.

Now, I cannot shoot GPS approaches, and cannot fly direct (wink wink) but I don't often travel IFR. When I am forced to, I file airways, like in the stone age. Most airports still have ILS, LOC or VOR approaches, including my home base. I would love an approach certified GPS, but that $$$ buys a lot of gas, and could, hypothetically, be used to buy some paint.

I highly recommend basic IFR capability, especially if you plan to do any traveling. My RV-6 began life as a VFR only airplane (same setup as above, without the VOR or the Altrak.) On the trip home from LOE 4 last year, I was stuck for 3 days in Kansas and Missouri, with weather which would have been easily navigated with the basic IFR setup I have now. Why didn't I start with an IFR panel? Same reason I started with a second hand wood prop- money. I often say- would you rather dream about your perfect airplane, or build and fly one which is just pretty **** good?

[chuck]

Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot

Also you are not stuck with expensive GPS NAV data base updates. Just buy paper charts/plates as needed.

The GRT EFIS does NOT charge for NAV updates because they are derived from government sources (paraphrase from web site). Seems reasonable not to charge for running a simple perl script against the updated database. That is a big reason why I'm tracking GRT so closely, total cost of ownership... I'm surprised they don't advertise this more aggressively.

Chuck

[hevansrv7a]

Assuming that U.S. rules apply,
One VOR/LOC [optional GS] with CDI
One COM [ please have a good handheld for backup]
[SL30's monitoring 2nd channel will be excellent feature]
Sans marker beacons, add 50' to ILS minimums.
Flight instruments [if EFIS, then have a backup for AS, Alt.]
One handheld GPS like Garmin 295/296. For "situational awareness".
All the paper stuff - plates, enroutes, etc.
A tiny red LED flashlight around your neck or in a place that's easy and certain.
Be reasonably current.
Be reasonable about what you intend to do! What's your backup plan with so little - or no - redundancy. Think about the limitations for single pilot IFR.
In reality, if you say "VFR GPS" in remarks portion of flight plan, you will usually be cleared to go direct with a wink and "what's your on course hdg?"
I fly this way in a C-150, but for the RV, I will add TruTrack 2 axis AP.
This config. will not allow GPS approaches.
Good luck.

[gmcjetpilot]

Jeff thanks for agreeing you must be in a Turkey induced euphoria or coma.

Hevansrv7a great post. As far as: "if you say "VFR GPS" in remarks portion of flight plan, you will usually be cleared to go direct with a wink and "what's your on course hdg?" I agree you can do direct, they may not just give it to you with out asking. ATC does not see the remarks unless they look it up (correct me if I am wrong). What they can give you is a "Vector direct". Since you have GPS you can "help yourself" by accepting (hinting for) direct vectors while using the GPS to stay on course, basically what you said. Technically you on a Vectors, but actually you are GPS direct. There are subtle ways to hint to this:

"Salt Lake center, request VECTORS direct XYZ, I show a "heading of ---" will do it, is that possible? thanks 123 delta mike" ; "123 delta mike, VECTORS direct XYZ, turn left heading ---" "123 delta mike, thanks "

(My record for direct was 10 minutes out of Seattle cleared direct to Detroit, but that was high altitude at 12 am. If they give a different heading than what you want for direct, it could be for traffic or airspace issues.)

Chuck, I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but Is a GRT, BMA or other "experimental" GPS, non-TSO'ed unit, OK (legal) as a stand alone IFR (en-route and approach) GPS? I am sure it will work, but so can a hand held GPS. Sorry if this is an old question, but I don't recall seeing a definitive answer. From what I read about it you need to have a GPS that can do XYZ per Advisory Circulars or other regulatory guidance. G

[n468ac]

My understanding is in an "experimental" aircraft and use any GPS in IFR ... as long as you have tested the GPS and it CAN do the GPS apps. As with anything ... you will be ok until you miss big time or crash ... then the insurance and FAA/NTSB will have a field day.

[hevansrv7a]

1] I don't know if ATC sees the Remarks section, but my impression is that they do because I've never had to ask for direct and often ATC volunteers it to get my low-slow-C150 out of the way. But, I admit that sometimes I file "direct" and get away with it, and I'm always careful not to file "slant GPS", only "slant uniform". Never tell a lie on the record.
2] I don't think any non-TSO'd GPS is legal for approaches or even IFR enroute. There's a gotcha in the regs that you have to meet all the TSO standards. For GPS that includes RAIM, etc. In theory you could but in practice I don't think you can. The regs are much tighter for GPS than for other stuff, probably (guess) because they are newer. Example - I have yet to find a TSO'd ADF. The irony is that you can use a crappy ADF to fly an approach or identify a point, but you can't use your handheld GPS as a substitute for it, say on an approach that says "ADF required" because the beacon establishes part of the missed procedure.
(http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/GPSSafetyAdv.htm)

[DGlaeser]

Originally Posted by n468ac

My understanding is in an "experimental" aircraft and use any GPS in IFR ... as long as you have tested the GPS and it CAN do the GPS apps. As with anything ... you will be ok until you miss big time or crash ... then the insurance and FAA/NTSB will have a field day.

You must have an IFR GPS to legally use it for navigation and approaches on an IFR flight - even for experimental aircraft. IFR GPSs have RAIM (verifies proper satellite geometry for accuracy), automatic sequencing of waypoints for approaches, and automatically increase sensitivity of the CDI as you approach the airport (all required to be certified for IFR) - VFR units don't have that stuff!!

If you have VOR/LOC/ILS Nav, and use that for IFR navigation and approaches, you can use any GPS for 'reference' purposes. All IFR navigation and approaches must be done with IFR certified nav equipment.

Dennis Glaeser
CFII