Engine OUT!!

A friend of mine had a engine out situation happen last week. New low time engine (o-320) minutes after take off. Luckily he made back to an airport , but found his plastic carb float filled with gas. He said there was an advisory posted on the plastic floats, but I guess manufactures are still installing them. Anybody have the same happen. BTW, the new metal float cost over 100 bucks.

gas in float.

same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago. On downwind , reduced power , the engine quit , lucky to make it to the runway. Finally checked carb and found one side of float( white plastic ) half full of gas the other side 1/3 full. Only 26 hours on brand new engine. Mfg had me send it to carb repair shop and it is now ok(I hope!

AD Required?

I'm not sure of the manufacturere of the carbs and/or engines in this case but I would suggest reporting this to the FAA or at least asking if the Manufacturer intends to. If these type engines are certified their certainly should be an AD issued. Even if they are not some sort of notifiation should be made to those who have these engines.

Two incidents - same problem. Possible severe consequences.

Not something to be ignored.

I'm not one to want to run to the FEDs but that is exactly what the AD process is for. Somebody could die and there is no way a preflight would pick this up I suspect.

It might be helpful to the rest of us if you could post the make and model of both the engine and the carburetor so those who operate the same can be on the lookout for this problem.

Chris

chrispratt said:

It might be helpful to the rest of us if you could post the make and model of both the engine and the carburetor so those who operate the same can be on the lookout for this problem.

Chris

Click to expand...

If you have a plastic float replace it.

SB issued in jan 08

There was a mandatory service bulletin issued on this problam in Jan of 08

Google Mandatory Service bulletin MSA-13. There is also and earlier SB MSA-1

Don't know how to link to a PDF doc

Been an AD out for some time on this issue.....

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-bulletins/pdfs/SB582A.pdf

rbibb said:

I'm not sure of the manufacturere of the carbs and/or engines in this case but I would suggest reporting this to the FAA or at least asking if the Manufacturer intends to. If these type engines are certified their certainly should be an AD issued. Even if they are not some sort of notifiation should be made to those who have these engines.

Two incidents - same problem. Possible severe consequences.

Not something to be ignored.

I'm not one to want to run to the FEDs but that is exactly what the AD process is for. Somebody could die and there is no way a preflight would pick this up I suspect.

Click to expand...

Carb float

AD at Lycoming site July 2008.

The following thread talks about carb jet but also mentioned carb float:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=38765&highlight=carb+float&page=3

My float sunk after 134 hrs and it was replaced with a foam float. Check the nameplate on the carb. There is a IC number. If the IC number is lower than 15, you need to replace it with a foam float.

Required to report system failures

rbibb said:

I'm not one to want to run to the FEDs but that is exactly what the AD process is for. Somebody could die and there is no way a preflight would pick this up I suspect.

Click to expand...

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the FARS require a PIC to report ANY major system or component that failed in flight.

Someone jump in and correct me if I am wrong.

While we're talking about floats, is a carb float swap something the average FBO can do, or does it need to be sent out to a carb shop?

It thread is amazing.

I owned a C-150 (N6930G) way, way back longer than I care to remember. It had a plastic float that sunk when 100LL was introduced. There was an AD that replaced the failed plastic float with a metal one. That was at least 40 years ago. How did a plastic float ever get back into the system?

Answer, economics, go cheap economics. Someone got FAA approval and it did not work.

Well, I did not have a carb problem but you guys might still be interestet in the following:

http://www.rv-4.de/video/RV_Power_off.wmv

Have a good day and always a good running engine

Thomas, RV-4

Thomas,
What a great video, and I'm sure all of us are anxious to hear some details, lessons learned, etc. Pretty shallow glide angle so assume no flaps and slightly over best glide speed.

Bill McLean
RV-4, and my wooden prop didn't windmill either.

Engine out

How come the the altimeter never moves from where it was when the engine stopped ?

Altimeter moves

edbooth said:

How come the the altimeter never moves from where it was when the engine stopped ?

Click to expand...

The altimeter is below the AS indicator on the left side of the panel. There is an instrument that does not move next to the right of the compass and slip indicator. What is that?

Scream said:

...What is that?

Click to expand...

Looks like a G-meter.

Scream said:

The altimeter is below the AS indicator on the left side of the panel. There is an instrument that does not move next to the right of the compass and slip indicator. What is that?

Click to expand...

How about a "G" meter?
Looks like Aaron beat me to it.

Best Glide...

If you spend any length of time in any aircraft type, you're probability of losing and engine goes up exponentially. Having lost the engine in both my RV4 and the F16, establishing best glide immediately is very important.
Simply put, if you're above best glide airspeed when it quits, pull back on the stick and climb until you can establish best glide, below it, push forward and accelerate, if altitude allows.
I was fortunate to land out of both occasions unscathed, attributed to practicing the procedure many times with a working engine...

Smokey
HR2

Specs on Camera & Mounting?

I would be interested to know what video camera and mounting arrangement you used. The image looks like its hi-def - very crisp and clear. And the camera mount is not only in an excellent location but there seems to be no perceptable vibration or movement in relation to the image.

I'm doing some research on this subject, so any information you can share would be most appreciated.

Nice job. My RV-6 glides pretty flat until I start hanging the flaps out in the wind, but I don't think it's that flat. Great video.

Several years ago I was riding in the back seat of a friends RV-4 while he was doing some rolls and loops. Then he was going to do a hammer head. I don't think he had the electric fuel pump on. He got plane straight up and the engine quit. The propeller clunked to a stop. The pilot paniced. I thought he was going to jump out, then he started cussing me! I was laughing and told him to hit the @#%&#& starter if he wanted it to run. The engine fired right up.
After we landed, I think he was a little embarrased about coming unwrapped like that. We were easy gliding distance to a 3100' runway. Soon after that, he sold the RV-4.

Thread drift.......

Back to a question that was brought up in post #4. What make and model carburetor do you have? I have a new engine, plane's not quite done, and am wondering if I need to pull the carb apart and have a look.

Mark
Minnetonka, MN.
RV9A #91317
finish kit

Sorry about that drifting thread....

Actually, there was no emergency. I just practiced to fly without the engine because I do not like to learn when I do not have a choice.
The flaps were up to achieve best glide angle. Approach-speed was 70kts, a little over best glide.
It can be done slower but I like to have some extra energy, especially when the engine is not running. It eats up more runway, though.
I would have also pulled the flaps if I wanted to land short.
It took me many "engine_out" drills with the power at idle until I felt comfortable enough to completely shut off the engine.

I use a regular Mini-DV Camera by Panasonic that has a electronic image stabilizer. A picture of my mount can be seen here:

http://www.rv-4.de/gallerie/Detail1_img/KHC_seite.jpg

Fly safe

Thomas, Rv-4

http://www.rv-4.de/

Glider training makes sense

My former PPL instructor suggested that we go up in his glider in prep for engine out training in my 9. He was right. I found that flying a glider was a great way to prepare. After we flew the glider a few times, we went up in my 9 and we did simulated "engine out". The glider experience definitely tempered the anxiety and helped me keep in front of the plane.

By the way, during one of the tests in the 9, the engine stumbled when I put in the power. The practice almost became real rather quickly so it's also important to increase the rpm occasionally to make sure the engine will respond when needed.

If you're gonna practice this stuff, and I think it's a great idea, start with glider training and a good instructor. The first time I tried to arrive at my selected landing spot myself in the 9, I didn't make it. In other words, my judgment was off. The second and third time, I got there too fast and had to perform additional maneuvers which could have been avoided with more prep & training.

Like the fellow said earlier, I'd rather not learn when my life (or more importantly, breaking a great airplane) depends on it. My wife's good looking and can easily find another husband, but building a 9 takes lots of time.

Barry
Tucson

Mark,
Pull up th Service bulletin. It tells you what to look for on your carb data plate.
My Carb is a MA-4-5 Precission. It needed the new floats. Was going to change myself but my set up needed$350 worth of tools to do the job so I sent it in to the mfger.

Thanks

Thanks Jeff, I'll take a look at that bulletin.

Mark

Just did a float change out

I was just about to pull my MA-4-5 carb for rejetting when the thread came up on the carb float. Thanks to all for bringing it to my attention. FYI, my jet was a #31 and I drilled it out to a #30 (.120" to .128" dia). My carb came with an engine Mel Jordan purchased from Van's new in 1999 from whom I bought it in 2000 (Hi Mel, it's finally flying) but did not fly with until this year. When I took the bowl off I found the float to be the white plastic type that is to be replaced. The float looked OK and was not leaking but rather than take a chance, and since I had it open anyway, I decided to change the float.

Since the carb was in new condition with only 14 hours it did not need any other work than the jet and float. No special tools were required for either of these two jobs so I decided to do it my self. I also decided to use the Kelly brass float replacement rather than the smurf blue foam one. Aircraft Spruce has a kit for $117, which includes a new bowl gasket, bowl bolt securement washers, pivot pin, cotter pin and the brass float. It was an easy job to install and adjust to the proper height. AS part number is 07-00678 (Kelly #666-916). The hardest part of the job is taking the carb off and putting it back on, the actual carb work is less than 30 min. In the instructions it states to etch "MF" for metal float on the carb ID tag. If you don't know what you have for a float you may want to check this out first. Dan Finney and I looked at his recently bought salvage 0-360 engine and it had the "MF" on it.

I haven't flown it yet as I just got it back together and the weather here has not cooperated. I let you know how it goes.

A few comments on Thomas Lukasczyk gliding RV-4 video: WOW. Of course all German pilots want to think they are in a glider. Seriously though, as a low time glider pilot with only 25 hrs I think it has helped my power skills. We always are told that if you have an engine out, fly the airplane first. The glider is the best way to learn this and not get into a trap of trying to "will it" a little further than it has the energy to go. I don't think you should do what Thomas did but getting glider experience, even just a couple hours, is cheep, productive training.