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Autopilot for the RV-12

bigbill25

Well Known Member
For those that didn't see this thread in the Autopilot forum about Dynon's new autopilot:

Excellent news.

I hope Dynon releases the RV12 servo and kits soon. The RV12 is proving very popular, and with a Dynon D180 as part of standard instruments an Dynon AutoPilot would be perfect.

Regards
Rudi

The RV-12 servo is the SV32. We don't need to do special servos for individual airplanes, we just need to know what strength servo an airframe needs. There is no mounting kit from us since that is supplied by Vans as part if the kit. Given that the RV-12 in the US is a E-LSA, it must be built to the manufacturer's specs, so Vans has more to do with allowing it than us.

That being said, they are absolutely supporting it. We have worked with them a lot on the RV-12 project, and I believe the mounting brackets are just designed right into the airframe. Not 100% sure yet how they are hooking to the control surfaces.

Sounds like good news, and a sooner-rather-than-later thing too!

--Bill
 
as a humorous sidenote....when I asked Van at Oshkosh about the autopilot....his smiling response was, "why would anyone want to put an autopilot in a plane like this?" for someone like me...building a 12 that's used to IFR, autopilots, speed etc....it does make me wonder.

Pete
 
I doubt if I would consider an autopilot add-on for the Dynon, but, Ken Krueger, at the RV-12 forum at Oshkosh did mention that the autopilot "might" be an option that one could purchase at some time in the future. I have to emphasize that he did say "might offer at some time in the future".

Still waiting for a ship date for the fuselage!!
 
Why not

as a humorous sidenote....when I asked Van at Oshkosh about the autopilot....his smiling response was, "why would anyone want to put an autopilot in a plane like this?" for someone like me...building a 12 that's used to IFR, autopilots, speed etc....it does make me wonder.

Pete

I flew cross country in my Zenair Zodiac (similar performance to the RV12)for 400 hours and if I was building another one (over my dead body!) I would slap a trutrak in there in a heartbeat.

Just about the most useful bit of gear next to an ASI IMHO

Frank
 
Questions for Van's:
  • Will it be possible to retrofit a current non-AP RV-12?
  • If so, how difficult?
  • Will the wiring harness include all the wiring necessary?
 
GOOD NEWS!!!

OK Guys,

Taking the response I got from Dynon discussed above I asked Vans, below is the response, so please don't all bug them you have the answers now!

Rudi's Email to Vans said:
Since I have ordered a RV12 wing and fuse kit already, and given Dynon's response on the AP, and that the RV12 comes with a D180, I have 3 questions:

Q1) Would the AP be easy to install in a completed RV12 after Vans finalize and offer it as an 'option'? OR

Q2) Do I have to keep it in mind during the wing and fuse construction, for instance is there additional mounting hardware, wing wire runs I need during construction?

Q3) Where would the pitch and roll Auto Pilot Servos be installed?

Here is the very possitive response:
Vans Email Response said:
Rudi,
The mounting provisions and control system interface for the Dynon AP are already built into the basic RV-12 structure and systems. This includes the basic wiring harness and the control system interface and the structural mounting.

The answers to your questions are as follows:

A1. Yes. Very easy.

A2. No. There is no additional mounting hardware, wire runs or anything that you need.

A3. In the fuselage.
 
as a humorous sidenote....when I asked Van at Oshkosh about the autopilot....his smiling response was, "why would anyone want to put an autopilot in a plane like this?" for someone like me...building a 12 that's used to IFR, autopilots, speed etc....it does make me wonder.

Pete

For me an Autopilot is a matter of x-country convenience and luxury.

I have one in my RV7 it is a fantastic luxury option, like cruise control for your car. On x-countries on a thermic day, I can relax, it reduces pilot workload cuase it keeps perfect heading and altitude. It leaves me to enjoy the conversation with my passanger, the view, and then glance the instruments every so often, not having to worry that I am drifting of course or altitude away from assigned flight path.

I am definetely fitting one in mine, and will take the weight penalty any day for the luxury it gives me.

PS: I guess if you don't plan x-country outings, and just fly around the patch, then it is not worth it. Build your plane for your mission.

Regards
Rudi
 
as a humorous sidenote....when I asked Van at Oshkosh about the autopilot....his smiling response was, "why would anyone want to put an autopilot in a plane like this?" for someone like me...building a 12 that's used to IFR, autopilots, speed etc....it does make me wonder.
I guess it depends on whether you intend on using the -12 for cross country flying. I don't want to reignite the "LSA and Medicals" debate, but if you could fly a "real" airplane, you probably wouldn't be building a LSA if you plan on flying a lot of cross country. However, if you're going to fly LSA, you might want to go cross country, and that means an autopilot would be nice.

We fly out CT on its Texas-to-Montana and back migration every year, and I wouldn't want to do that without our autopilot. LSA make fine cross-country machines, as long as you're happy with 115kt.

TODR
 
Adding an A/P - OK for E-LSA?

I have a buddy who is building an RV-12 and wants to stay ELSA compliant, so he couldn't add the A/P unless Van's approves it - correct?
 
...I am definetely fitting one in mine, and will take the weight penalty any day for the luxury it gives me.
2 lbs a servo and a little less than 12 ounces for the AP74 (including the mounting bracket), if they include the AP 74, you are talking a total of around 5 lbs, including wiring. Not much of a penalty. (I weighed everything prior installation.)

... but if you could fly a "real" airplane, you probably wouldn't be building a LSA if you plan on flying a lot of cross country...
I don't get this argument that LSA's are not "real" airplanes. The RV-12 will out run a Skyhawk and isn't a Skyhawk considered a "real" airplane. A friend has a Sport Cruiser LSA and it is a great airplane with a lot more room than my -9.

I have a buddy who is building an RV-12 and wants to stay ELSA compliant, so he couldn't add the A/P unless Van's approves it - correct?
Correct, you must build the plane exactly as their S-SLA conforming article (test plane) is approved. However, as I understand it, after it is certified and flying, you MAY be able to do field approvals AKA changes.
 
I don't get this argument that LSA's are not "real" airplanes. The RV-12 will out run a Skyhawk and isn't a Skyhawk considered a "real" airplane. A friend has a Sport Cruiser LSA and it is a great airplane with a lot more room than my -9.
Well, I'm not trying to say anything here, as I fly a LSA and find it real enough for me. However, there are plenty of people out there who don't look at LSA as "real" airplanes. I don't pay much attention to that and happily go on flying around in my airplane, "real" or not. :)

TODR
 
Coincidence?

Did anyone else notice that the RV-12 prototype is in the engineering shop this week? With the recent news about servo availability from Dynon, perhaps they are installing the autopilot and nav lights that have been advertised as likely options down the road.
 
My "one man's opinion" of the LSA vs. "real plane":

I'm 34, regularly run half marathons, and have no problem passing the medical. I'm a fairly new pilot (76.8 hours in the book) and have never built a plane. My mission plan is to 1) have fun and, 2) to travel from my home base in Portland, OR to relatives in Seattle, Montana, and California. I'm thinking about the -12 because:
  • It sounds easier for the first time builder to construct than a -9A
  • I can build it much faster than a -9A and most likely faster than a -9A Quick Build
  • I can build it cheaper than a -9A
  • 98% of my flight time has been in a C-150, so the -12's flight envelope will be comfortable
  • Removable wings opens up a lot options to reduce "fixed" costs

That's it in a nutshell. I would like the autopilot for the XC, and the lights as I am a "real" pilot and want to have the ability for night flight...

Rudi: Thanks for posting your update from Van's!

--Bill
 
Ditto from me Bill!

Bill:

You hit the nail on the head, at least for some of us. I am 43, don't anticipate problems maintaining my medical (knock on wood), and currently fly a Skyhawk with a 180HP upgrade. However, most of my flying is recreational and local area with a few cross country trips here and there. Like you, I had been considering building for several years and the 9A was one consideration. I chose the RV-12 because it was going to be simpler for a first time builder (and take less time), really had all the performance I need, will be more economical to operate than my Skyhawk, and will actually be better equipped. Like you, I want to install both lights and autopilot as I want the option of flying at night (and just to increase my visibility for others) and would find an autopilot beneficial, even on those shorter cross country trips (I often wish I had it in my Skyhawk).

I suspect there are quite a few other RV-12 builders that are in the same camp. Having flown in the original prototype RV-12, I can definitely say it is a "real airplane" from my perspective.
 
Can it kill you?

If so its a real airplane!..

Be handy to have something other than skyhawks as target drones anyway..:)

Frank
 
An E-LSA IS allowed to be modified after it is certificated.

I have a buddy who is building an RV-12 and wants to stay ELSA compliant, so he couldn't add the A/P unless Van's approves it - correct?

Correct, you must build the plane exactly as their S-SLA conforming article (test plane) is approved. However, as I understand it, after it is certified and flying, you MAY be able to do field approvals AKA changes.

I found the following on the FAA's website - http://www.faa.gov/news/aviation_news/2006/media/novdec2006.pdf - that says an E-LSA is allowed to be modified after it is certificated. On page 32 the FAA says, "Modification of the ?light-sport kit? aircraft can be at will after original certification."

Also, in the May 2005 issue of Kitplanes on page 39 is the following:
"After the aircraft is inspected by the FAA (or DAR) and receives its ELSA airworthiness certificate? well, things open up considerably. The owner is no longer restricted by the manufacturer's instructions. He or she may change the aircraft as they desire as long as it still meets the gross weight, stall speed, cruise speed and other limitations of the LSA definition. The local FAA may also require a repeat of the test period."

See: http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=291 and
See: http://www.sportpilot.org/questions/afmviewfaq.asp?faqid=1600

Below is a reply from Joe Norris, Senior Aviation Specialist at EAA, to my email.

Hello Joe,
It?s ALWAYS legal to modify an experimental aircraft. That?s the nature of the experimental certification categories.
The only time when it?s not acceptable to modify an experimental aircraft is BEFORE the initial certification of an ELSA that?s built from a Consensus Standard-compliant kit from an SLSA manufacturer. This certification category, under the authority of 14 CFR 21.191(i)(2) requires that the aircraft be assembled in accordance with assembly instructions provided by the manufacturer. Since this application requires a Statement of Compliance (FAA Form 8130-15) from the manufacturer, the only way that statement can be valid is if the aircraft is assembled strictly in accordance with the manufacturer?s instructions.
However, once that ELSA gets its airworthiness certificate it is an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft just like any other, and you will find no regulation that restricts the modification of such aircraft. The only guiding document will be the aircraft?s operating limitations (issued by the FAA as a part of the airworthiness certificate) which will require an approval process to be adhered to if a major change is made. This does not prohibit the change, but does put in place a specific procedure to approve the change.
There is no FAA document that specifically says an ELSA (or any other experimental aircraft) can be modified. The more important issue though, is that you can?t find any regulation or guidance that would prohibit such modification. The maintenance and repair regulations found in 14 CFR Part 43 specifically do NOT apply to experimental aircraft, as stated in 43.1(b):
This part does not apply to any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft.
This specifically states that the maintenance and repair regulations found in part 43 do not apply to an experimental aircraft. That being the case, there is no restriction on who performs maintenance, repair or modification.
I hope this helps to explain the situation. If not, let me know what further questions you have.
Joe Norris
EAA 113615 Lifetime
Homebuilders Community Manager
EAA?The Spirit of Aviation
www.eaa.org
See you at EAA AirVenture Oshkosh?July 27 ? August 2, 2009


From: Joe
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:22 PM
To: Joe Norris
Subject: E-LSA rule

Joe Norris,
I talked with you after a forum at OSH about being able to modify an E-LSA after it is certificated. I need something in writing to prove to my friend at the local EAA Chapter 13 that it is legal to modify a completed E-LSA. Could you provide me a link to an EAA or preferably a FAA website that states the rules regarding modifications to an E-LSA AFTER it has been issued an airworthiness certificate?
Thanks for your help.
Joe Gores
 
RV-12 - Autopilot, Etc. -

I flew the Red RV-12 a few months ago and as I reported here, I asked if lights and AP would be offered and the company pilot said most likely, YES.

My 12 will have the standard Vans LSA equipment. A Dynon-180 and AP will be installed. Probably will include the 'lights' option as well.

This will be my first Vans aircraft and likely will be followed by either another 12 or an RV-9A. I intend to fly the 12 very actively while I build the second aircraft. It's a 'real' airplane and a 'real' Vans - its just 40-50K slower than the other 'real' Vans airplanes. It flies wonderfully!

The Dynon electronics (including the AP) offer great luxury, safety, reliability and company support. I predict that most 12 kits will be sold with the AP option. Of course, everyone will order the 12 that best fits his/her mission requirements. The whole idea here is to have fun, right!!!:cool::cool::cool:
 
RV 12 Prototype

Did anyone else notice that the RV-12 prototype is in the engineering shop this week? With the recent news about servo availability from Dynon, perhaps they are installing the autopilot and nav lights that have been advertised as likely options down the road.

Has anyone any idea what Vans had the prototype in the workshop for? Anything been added or altered?
 
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