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Alternator failure inflight

n700jl

Well Known Member
Well it finally happened to me a real alternator failure inflight. This weekend I was taking a friend for a ride when I noticed that it sounded like someone had there mic stuck. I turned off my alt. field and the noise went away. I turned the field back on and the noise came back with only 13.3 volts, normally 13.8. After turning back to the airport. it finally died and the volt meter read 12.1 volts. No problem! day VFR, time to pull the cowl. The next day I pulled the cowl took the alt. off and went to Autozone. They tested it for free( it was bad) the man said what does this go on well it is for an aiiiiiirrrrp I mean a 1990 Suzuki Samuri 1.3L please. $100.00 dollars later plus 50 for the core ( but it has a lifetime warranty) and I was on my way back to the airport to fix my bird. Slapped the rebuilt one on installed a new blast tube( it was no there before) did a quick run up 14.1 volts! and I am ready for flight. Lesson #1 It lookked like the original one had gotten very hot so I think that the new blast tube should help extend the life of this one. Lesson #2 know what car you alt came off of. Having this info will save alot of time at the part store. I was running the Vans 60amp kit with a case mount. I hope this helps someone!
 
The blast tube will help, but the alternator is running backwards from what it was designed to. When this one goes look at Plane Power. They are built with 2 cooling fans turning the correct way to cool.

http://www.plane-power.com/
 
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...or use one for an '86 Honda Civic. It's rated at 55A and has the correct cooling fans for Lycoming usage. You'll have to swap out the multi-rib pulley that the Honda unit uses for a single-V pulley. In fact, ALL Honda alternators that are for front-wheel-drive 4-cylinders from 84-99 have correct fans, because Hondas of those vintages run "backwards" relative to almost all other automotive engines. Also, you can modify your Denso alternator so it can't "run away" like this:http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Nipon-Denso_Alternator_Mod.pdf
Bob N was nice enough to put this on the web for me.

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, flying (with an '88 Honda Civic alternator)
 
Avoid cycling the ALT switch

The blast tube will help, but the alternator is running backwards from what it was designed to. When this one goes look at Plane Power. They are built with 2 cooling fans turning the correct way to cool.

http://www.plane-power.com/
I agree but all ND's have two internal fans, but you are right, they are running backwards.


14.1 volts sounds TOO low

The alternator you have should be set to 14.5 volts. The lower volts could be loss in wiring over distance, which is normal. 0.40 volts is a little too high. It could mean the alternator is not making spec volts. You could also have bad connections on your b-lead. Check the wires, connections and terminals. It is not uncommon to have a lose B-lead connection or bad crimp terminals. Lots of vibration going on. You expect some loss from the alternator to where you measure voltage but 0.40 volts is too much. You say it use to be normally 13.8 volts? That is way to low for the standard Suzuki Samurai ND alternator. If your B-lead connections are poor or intermittent you can damage the alternator.


HEAT

A blast tube on the voltage regulator heat sink will help. Semiconductors service life and heat are directly proportional. Also back there are the rectifier diodes. Also Consider a head shield off the back of the alternator or the #1 exhaust pipe. You don't want the Pipe and Alternator to have line of sight between each other. Infrared radiant heat will cook your alternator. It is not only the air temp but the radiant heat. It's like the warmth of the sun on your face on a cool day. You should SHIELD the back of the alternator from nearby hot stuff, and the first foot or two of the #1 pipe is about as HOT as it gets.



Turning the Alternator ON and than OFF while running = sure fire way to kill your alternator NOW

I have been researching this for a few years. There is a direct correlation to alternator failure and cycling the ALT switch while it is running under load. Call it anecdotal evidence or scientific observation.

In a car you can't cycle the alternator with the engine running. The key and ignition switch takes care of the sequence of what goes on or off. The alternator is on before engine start. There are timers and logic in the alternator to start the alternator softly. You are defeating that start logic by cycling the alternator off/on while spinning at high RPM. Not all alternators are like this, but stock ND alternators made to OEM standards are.

These alternators are designed for cars with an ignition switch; there is no ALT switch in a car. The alternator is ON before start and OFF ofter the engine ignition is shut off. There are circuits inside the alternator to take care of "soft starting" the alterantor.

Most IR have logic control in the form of a small IC chip. This is true of ND alternators made to OEM standards. Some after market alternators might not adhere to all OEM standards, but good ones should. The chip that does the magic is very sophisticated but cost about $1.50. It has all the start and stop and fault logic. There is no reason for manufactures not to use these IC chips. Most do.

I think the damage is done when the pilot turns it back on. That surge or voltage spike fries the solid state switching. This is an educated guess. I have never got a voltage regulator tested after failure. If you ever have a bad regulator, send it to me. I'll send it off to a company to find out what failed.

Regardless of the failure mode, I have discussed this or read this scenario from at least 5 or 6 pilots. You make the 7th. It is possible your alternator was going bad before you cycled it, but alternator noise is not necessarily a sign of a bad alternator. It usually means bad grounds or connections. It can be a bad rectifier diode but the voltage was normal? Did the AUTO STORE tell you what was bad?

The alternator's IGN lead is a very low current "wake/sleep signal" that tells the alternator to come alive, get ready to run. It also tells it to sleep when you take your keys out of the ignition switch. Telling the alternator to sleep and wake again while running I theorize causes a surge and overloads the switching, which is not made to handle large spike. (ER) alternators have no internal logic and switching, the "ALT" switch controls the power to the regulator.

WHY cycle your alternator off/on while its running? Its not a criticism, just a question, WHY? If you want to know if the alternator is running look at your voltage meter. If you suspect your alternator is making noise, it is. Noise is sometimes a regulator/rectifier problem, but it mostly comes bad connections. Just change RPM. If you can hear a change in the whine/noise, you know its related to the alternator (or bad connections / grounds). Never cycle the alternator on and off capriciously is my suggestion. If the alternator is clearly malfunction than turn it off.


Removing the b-lead from the battery while running will kill the alternator just as fast.

If you have some kind of OV relay or a CB on the B-lead, don't cycle it to TEST it working under load. This WILL KILL YOUR ALTERNATOR as well. This is well known, never run any alternator unless it is connected to a battery. People have been known to take the positive battery lead off their car while the car is running to "see if the alternator is working". This will damage the alternator. It's NOT a useful test of anything. Use a volt meter to test. If your B-lead connections are poor or intermittent you can damage the alternator.

I can tell you many pilots I talked to, start their, "my alternator failed" story with:

"Well I turned the ALT switch off to see what would happen and than back on. Than the voltage ........ went low ...... (or) ...... went high."
 
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I did look at the plane power which is very nice but my budget is not unlimited for this airplane. It only cost $100.00 to fix my airplane. The Plane power for my application was over $500.00 plus shipping. Plane power only has a 2 year warranty. autoZone has a lifetime warranty. If I break down on the road somewhere there are Autozones everywhere! Plane power will have to send you there's overnight. It just comes down to dollars and cents for me. With the $400.00 I saved I can buy 100 gallons of 100LL. From a safety stand point I recommend turning off anything on my plane that is not functioning the way it should. Would you keep trying to trim a airplane that the trim was not responding? Fly safe!
 
I agree auto store alternator

I did look at the plane power which is very nice but my budget is not unlimited for this airplane. It only cost $100.00 to fix my airplane.
I am totally with you. Stock ND's are great and with the auto part store "lifetime warranty", availability and lower cost, its a fair choice.

It's late Sunday and your on a X-C 500 miles from home and your alternator goes. You can get a ride to the auto store down the street and be in business. Try getting a plane power or B&C on Saturday or Sunday. I agree.

There has been some bad rap with rebuilds and clones from the auto part store, some well deceived. However I have had good luck with the auto part store units. Van's is not giving his basic clones away. Also the warranty is better with the auto part stores. Still the plane power is real nice, no doubt. I think they are $375 not $500 and that includes the full installation, parts and belt.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin...256-279&browse=engines&product=alternator-kit
 
...or use one for an '86 Honda Civic. It's rated at 55A and has the correct cooling fans for Lycoming usage. You'll have to swap out the multi-rib pulley that the Honda unit uses for a single-V pulley. In fact, ALL Honda alternators that are for front-wheel-drive 4-cylinders from 84-99 have correct fans, because Hondas of those vintages run "backwards" relative to almost all other automotive engines. Also, you can modify your Denso alternator so it can't "run away" like this:http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Nipon-Denso_Alternator_Mod.pdf
Bob N was nice enough to put this on the web for me.

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, flying (with an '88 Honda Civic alternator)

May I assume it does not matter which way an alternator turns? I am swapping engines and would like to run the Nipon Denso some more on the new engine but it will be turning the other way.
 
It just comes down to dollars and cents for me. With the $400.00 I saved I can buy 100 gallons of 100LL.

Does the Autozone alternator have over voltage protection?
A runaway alternator cost my buddy about $10K in avionics. Made a believer out of me.

Good luck with your decision.
 

Interesting article but his opinion of the 35a Honda alternator doesn't match my experience with the unit. I have found the little Honda CVCC alternator to be reliable over a period of several hundred hours with no need to change pulleys. I use a $12 Ford regulator with it, not a "$100" regulator.

The other units he describes are good alternators, but if someone needs a modest-sized alternator, the Honda 14184 may be a good way to go.
 
May I assume it does not matter which way an alternator turns? I am swapping engines and would like to run the Nipon Denso some more on the new engine but it will be turning the other way.

For an alternator that is being used for AC power (like a power plant), yes it does matter. For an alternator that is producing 3-phase power that is subsequently rectified to a DC waveform (like we are using), it does not matter which way they turn. They may have a fan that needs to turn one direction instead of another, but the electronics portion does not care.
 
<snip> They may have a fan that needs to turn one direction instead of another, but the electronics portion does not care.


The fan turning the correct direction is what's important. And that would ONLY be an alternator from an older Honda 4-cylinder. Those are the ONLY engines that 1) came with an ND alternator and 2) run "backwards" relative to all other automotive engines (except for a few early Hyundai's, I think) and therefore have the right fans for Lycoming usage. Plane-power makes a big deal out of having fans that "turn the right direction" for Lycoming usage, and I agree. What they're using are rotors originally intended for Honda alternators.

Geo Metro et al alternators will make the juice just fine, but they won't cool worth a darn and therefore won't last as long as they should. Why not just use a Honda alternator, mod it like I did here and call it a day? You'll have absolute overvoltage protection and save a few bucks.

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6 (with an '88 Civic alternator)
 
May I assume it does not matter which way an alternator turns? I am swapping engines and would like to run the Nipon Denso some more on the new engine but it will be turning the other way.

If you have a Lycoming, use a Nippon Denso (ND or Denso) alternator for a Honda 4-cylinder (an 86 Civic unit works great for Lycomings).

If you have an "alternative" engine, use an ND that is for anything BUT a Honda, like an '89 Camry. Easy enough.

Heinrich Gerhardt
 
Must be something in the water (air?)... my original Van's alternator (60A) also failed a few days ago, but in a different failure mode.

I went for a local hop around the patch when the BRL (Big Red Light) came on indicating low voltage. Oops. Back to the hangar and pull the cowling, where I noticed the B lead wire terminal had broken; the B lead wire was just dangling below the alternator. No problem; I attached a new terminal to the wire and reattached it to the alternator, then gave the whole thing a look over before cowling it back up... and what do I see but a crack through the stamped steel aft attach bracket on the alternator itself. I pulled the alternator off to get a better look, and sure enough, the bracket was cracked completely through. Now I'm thinking the cracked bracket set up a vibration that eventually caused the B lead wire terminal to break.

But now comes the part about the easy fix; run down the street to the nearest AutoZone and trade the old one for a "new" rebuilt Suzuki Samurai unit, 102 bucks total with a lifetime warranty. Elapsed time from finding the crack to having the new unit in hand at the hangar was maybe 45 minutes. And here's something unusual about the old unit I turned in; when AutoZone takes in a core they put it on the test bench to check it before sending it away for overhaul. The guy at the bench said my returned unit failed their test... he didn't give any specifics, but said it was no bueno. And here I thought that alternator was working just fine...
 
he didn't give any specifics, but said it was no bueno. And here I thought that alternator was working just fine...

Thats how they get a fresh supply of free cores! :cool:

DB
 
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