VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics



Go Back   VAF Forums > RV Firewall Forward Section > Traditional Aircraft Engines
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-13-2007, 08:46 PM
Noah's Avatar
Noah Noah is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: RI
Posts: 780
Default HELP! Should I Sell My IO-360 A1B6 200 hp angle valve engine and buy lyc clone?

Two Part Post – Part One. When I bought my partially completed RV-7A project, it came with an IO-360 A1B6 200 hp angle valve counterweighted crankshaft engine. This was the engine that I wanted, after having read through Dan Checkoway's site and learning about the performance and economy he got with this powerplant. I was impressed.

My engine came out of a Beech Sierra, and has around 1800 SMOH, 900 since being topped. It has been shrink-wrapped and pickled in a crate for 3 years. I had been planning to install this engine and run it for a couple of hundred hours, then overhaul it.

Unfortunately, I learned not too long ago that the engine had NOT been pickled as I thought it was. The shop who sold the previous builder the engine indicated that the engine was pickled on the receipt, but there was no oil in the engine. The guy I bought it from didn't know because he never even removed the shrink wrap or took it out of the crate. After removing all of the cylinders, I found light rust in the jugs, and the tappets & camshaft are not good either

So I need to overhaul the engine before installing it or running it, which I am now learning is quite an expense. I have gotten several quotes for overhaul, and they're all in the $22-$24K range.

Some people have advocated selling my core and buying a Lycoming clone or a kit engine (for only $15K?) due to the significantly lower initial and operating costs. If I did this, I could subtract my core value and buy a NEW experimental engine for very little money. Some have advocated keeping this engine, and implied that I’m crazy for even THINKING about selling it.

I've been told that the 200 hp engine is 34 Lb heavier than the 180 hp engine, but this might be a good thing on an RV-7A given the aft-CG tendency.

Bottom Line: I don't know what to do, and need your help making a decision.

(Part 2 follows)

Highest Regards,
__________________
Highest Regards,

Noah Forden, RV-7A

All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men… for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible. -T.E. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-13-2007, 08:49 PM
Noah's Avatar
Noah Noah is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: RI
Posts: 780
Default Two Part Post – Part Two.

What are the pros and cons of keeping vs. selling this engine and replacing it with a 180hp “lycoming clone” fuel injected engine? More specifically:

1. There seems to be some mysticism for the 200hp angle valve engine - but I don't know why? Is it just the 20 additional hp? Is it the counterweighted crank? Is this engine that much smoother? Does this engine have a great reputation for reliability? Does it sound cool? Some other reason? What is it?

2. Is insurance more for an experimental "lycoming clone", kit engine?

3. Why is the initial purchase price of this engine so much higher? The dollars spent per hp is much higher for this engine than for the 180 hp.

4. Why is the overhaul cost for this engine so much higher compared to the 180hp? (Or is it)?

5. Are roller tappets available on this engine as a retrofit? If not, can they be installed on an experimental basis? Is this wise?

6. Resale for a certificated engine is probably more than for an experimental, "lycoming clone". Are there any other reasons that its better to stick with a certificated engine, as compared to a "lyc clone"? Is reliability really any different?

7. If I keep this engine and overhaul it, the engine may be stored for some time prior to overhaul. Will shops allow me to disassemble the engine myself & send them the properly identified / labeled parts? This way I could disassemble, inspect, and properly preserve the engine parts I have, and at least prevent any further deterioration.

8. Is TBO lower for a lycoming clone? Are warranties any better or worse? Are the component parts the same?

9. Are the lycoming clones less money because of less need for liability insurance on the part of the seller, or lack of FAA paperwork, or both? Are there other reasons?

10. There are “forward facing induction” and “vertical induction” engines. Why would I want one over the other? I seem to recall reading that horizontal induction means colder air into the engine so more density and more power. That I understand. But why are the horizontal induction engines more money? Are there more parts, or more expensive parts? What other considerations are there between horizontal and vertical induction engines?

11. Do homebuilders tend to work on their own engines if they are experimental? Do you need an A&P or just your normal repairman’s certificate to work on your own engine? (Not saying I want to do this, just curious).

12. Where can I find a good “Engines 101” book or course that can answer these types of questions?

Thank you in advance for your help!

Highest Regards,
__________________
Highest Regards,

Noah Forden, RV-7A

All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men… for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible. -T.E. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-13-2007, 10:11 PM
rv72004 rv72004 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 447
Default

If you intend keeping the plane for the longhaul I would buy a 180hp clone. I dont believe the W&B to be a issue as there are many 7"s flyng with 160 hp as well. Insurance shouldnt be affected[wasnt in my case]
But hey, thats the beauty of our hobby, to all his own. If you want to overhaul and go with the 200hp ,thats also a fine and well proven combination.
__________________
EJ
RV7 flying
xp360, CS, All Glass cockpit
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-14-2007, 06:21 AM
mahlon_r mahlon_r is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Default

I will try to offer an opinion where the question deals with the engine and not the aircraft as I am really only an engine type guy.
1. There seems to be some mysticism for the 200hp angle valve engine - but I don't know why? Is it just the 20 additional hp? Is it the counterweighted crank? Is this engine that much smoother? Does this engine have a great reputation for reliability? Does it sound cool? Some other reason? What is it?
The engine isn't any more or less reliable then a 180HP engine. The 200HP engine can be counter weighted or not and the counter weights have nothing to do with operational smoothness so one isn't more smooth then the other as long as they were buildt to the same standards.

2. Is insurance more for an experimental "Lycoming clone", kit engine?
Not that I am aware of.

3. Why is the initial purchase price of this engine so much higher? The dollars spent per hp is much higher for this engine than for the 180 hp.
The 200Hp slant valve engine is a physically different design engine as compared to a 180 Hp engine. The parts just add up to more money when you add what it costs to buy them all.

4. Why is the overhaul cost for this engine so much higher compared to the 180hp? (Or is it)?
Same as above different parts cost different amounts and although many of the parts in the 200HP engine are common to the 180HP engine, many ,any are not. Overhaul cost delta is approximately 1500.00 from our shop.

5. Are roller tappets available on this engine as a retrofit? If not, can they be installed on an experimental basis? Is this wise?
Roller tappets could be installed in the engine by purchasing a different crankcase and cam for the engine. The cost of doing so at an overhaul is likely prohibitive due to the cost of those items.

6. Resale for a certificated engine is probably more than for an experimental, "Lycoming clone". Are there any other reasons that its better to stick with a certificated engine, as compared to a "lyc clone"? Is reliability really any different?
I don't believe there is any reliability difference. Core resale price may be more for certified because the engine is certified and could be used on a certified aircraft.

7. If I keep this engine and overhaul it, the engine may be stored for some time prior to overhaul. Will shops allow me to disassemble the engine myself & send them the properly identified / labeled parts? This way I could disassemble, inspect, and properly preserve the engine parts I have, and at least prevent any further deterioration.
Depends on the shop. Generally speaking no shop would have a problem with you disassembling the engine and preserving it at tha point and then giving it to them for overhaul. If you get all the parts certified and then preserved many shops might not want to rely on your certification in their engine.

8. Is TBO lower for a Lycoming clone? Are warranties any better or worse? Are the component parts the same?
Depends on who you buy the engine form as far as the clones go. Warranties vary from company to company.

9. Are the Lycoming clones less money because of less need for liability insurance on the part of the seller, or lack of FAA paperwork, or both? Are there other reasons?
In the case of some of the accessories used, the answer is yes there is less liability associated with them. In the case of most of the engine parts, they are the same parts you would buy for certified. I think the clone builders work on a little less margin then other offerings.

10. There are “forward facing induction” and “vertical induction” engines. Why would I want one over the other? I seem to recall reading that horizontal induction means colder air into the engine so more density and more power. That I understand. But why are the horizontal induction engines more money? Are there more parts, or more expensive parts? What other considerations are there between horizontal and vertical induction engines?
The horizontal sumps cost more then the vertical ones and thus the horizontal engines cost more then vertical ones. Price difference between the sumps is 1000 to 1800 or so depending on which one you are using.

11. Do homebuilders tend to work on their own engines if they are experimental? Do you need an A&P or just your normal repairman’s certificate to work on your own engine? (Not saying I want to do this, just curious).
The FAR's regulate this and depending on your level of comfort this is regulated by that level and the regulations.

12. Where can I find a good “Engines 101” book or course that can answer these types of questions?
Sacramento Sky Ranch

Hope this helps!
Good Luck and Merry Christmas,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-14-2007, 11:40 AM
klwerner klwerner is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 61
Default

Check your PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-14-2007, 08:22 PM
Bill Palmer Bill Palmer is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chino Hills, CA
Posts: 268
Smile Dry Weight Difference

Hi Noah,

The only "hard" Lycoming evidence I have ever heard relative to the dry weight difference between a 200hp, angle-valve IO-360 and a 180hp, parallel-valve IO-360 is from a recent Lycoming brochure (2005?) which listed 23 pounds. Search the Yahoo Lycoming Group. You might be able to find a message listing the dry weight differences between all the various types of Lycoming engines although the posting is at least a couple of years old, or more, as I recall.

Good Luck! and Merry Christmas!

Bill Palmer

P.S. Given the high estimates you have received for a complete overhaul of your angle-valve, you might consider dissassembling the engine yourself to save some labor. There are usually experienced RVers and Lycoming engine experts around who can provide you guidance and possibly some tools, at little or no cost, if you're a good boy! (That's what you told Santa Claus, right?!) To the extent that you can get good deals on inspection, overhauling, or purchase of the separate parts, you might consider this route also. You might be able to safely replace some certified parts with "experimental" ones, but I would recommend checking with a Lycoming engine expert before doing this. Bottom Line: The closer you can get your engine to just an assembly job, the better! Happy New Year!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-14-2007, 09:15 PM
mannanj's Avatar
mannanj mannanj is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mtns of N.E. Georgia
Posts: 1,292
Default IO-360

You'll love the 200 hp eng. if you decide to keep it.

I overhauled mine myself. Sent the Crankshaft, all steel parts, the Case and Accessory Case out to be certified. The Cylinders were close enough to standard so they could be certified by honing, new valves, seats, valve guides etc. Had to have a new Camshaft, Tappets and Bodies. I installed new oil pump gears and thermostatic valve too.

All that with new bearings and overhaul gasket kit cost less than$7,500.

If you need new cylinders----that's gonna hurt. They're almost 2 large bills each.

I had Airflow Performance rebuild my Fuel Injection Servo as experimental instead of certified for less than a third of what that would have cost. Same excellent work, same material just didn't have to pay their insurance bill. (Don't you just LOVE lawyers?)

If you decide to DIY, get a good engine man to guide you through the rebuild. You could end up with a heck of an engine for a lot less than you think.

With Fuel Inj., matched spray nozzles and running lean of peak EGT, you'll burn less fuel than a carburated 180 hp eng. running the same speed.
__________________
LAUS DEO
Mannan J.Thomason, MSGT. USAF (RET)
VAF788 RV-8 N161RL
"Bucket List" checkoff in progress!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-15-2007, 03:00 AM
mahlon_r mahlon_r is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 831
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Palmer View Post
Hi Noah,

The only "hard" Lycoming evidence I have ever heard relative to the dry weight difference between a 200hp, angle-valve IO-360 and a 180hp, parallel-valve IO-360 is from a recent Lycoming brochure (2005?) which listed 23 pounds.
Bill,
The weights for all Lycoming IO-360 models is listed in their type certificate data sheet from the FAA.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgMakeModel.nsf/0/8DF482166B82DD2386256E75005A0248/$FILE/1E10%20Rev%2022.pdf
Good Luck and Merry Christmas,
Mahlon
“The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-15-2007, 08:26 AM
Noah's Avatar
Noah Noah is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: RI
Posts: 780
Default Counterweights

Thanks EJ, Mahlon, Bill, Mannan - your input is appreciated.

Quote:
The 200HP engine can be counter weighted or not and the counter weights have nothing to do with operational smoothness so one isn't more smooth then the other as long as they were built to the same standards.
OK, I was all wet on this one. If counterweights don't affect operational smoothness, so the pilot can't tell a difference, and reliability is the same, then what is the benefit of all that additional weight up front?

Quote:
The weights for all Lycoming IO-360 models is listed in their type certificate data sheet from the FAA.
OK, so the weight difference is 302 Lb for my engine vs. 268 Lbs for an IO-360 B series (parallel valve), give or take a pound or two depending on exact type.

Quote:
Given the high estimates you have received for a complete overhaul of your angle-valve, you might consider dissassembling the engine yourself to save some labor.
Quote:
I overhauled mine myself. Sent the Crankshaft, all steel parts, the Case and Accessory Case out to be certified. The Cylinders were close enough to standard so they could be certified by honing, new valves, seats, valve guides etc. Had to have a new Camshaft, Tappets and Bodies. I installed new oil pump gears and thermostatic valve too.

All that with new bearings and overhaul gasket kit cost less than$7,500.
This is an intriguing option. Has anybody else overhauled one of these themselves? What did it cost you? What are you not getting if you decide to go this route instead of one of the large overhaul shops? Certainly a run in a test cell - but what else?

Thanks again for the help, Gents!

Highest Regards,
__________________
Highest Regards,

Noah Forden, RV-7A

All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men… for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible. -T.E. Lawrence
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-15-2007, 10:45 AM
Brian Vickers Brian Vickers is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA
Posts: 285
Default Roll your own overhaul

I enjoyed overhauling my parallel valve engine more than any other aspect of building my soon to be completed RV. I sent out everything for yellow tagging including mags and reman. carb from Precision Airmotive. I also decided to install 100% new hardware. Only the main components are from my core. Here is my cost:

Case parts inspect: $1,276
Steel parts inspect: $1,241
Reman. carb: $600
Mags inspect: $300
New fuel pump: $210
All hardware, and more: $1,379
Oil fill tube, misc.: $299
New mag harness: $192
Cylinder overhaul: $1,953
Outbound shipping: $255
Total: $7,805

The total does not include paint, tools, consumables, manuals, safety wire, spark plugs, oil filter or adapter (going to replace it), packing materials for outbound shipping, or coffee. I replaced the crank with a new OEM unit since it had micro pitting inside the hollow barrel. Otherwise, it didn’t need major grinding. If a person doesn’t already have a core I think a kit is the way to go. I spent considerable time finding the core, tearing it down, packing, cleaning, shipping, figuring out which parts to order, etc. Since you already have a core, roll you own!!!
__________________
Brian Vickers
Bainbridge Island, WA
RV4
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:32 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.