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Rudder Pedal Extensions/Inadvertent Braking

vlittle

vlittle

Well Known Member
I am suspicious that when I apply right rudder during take of roll, the I am also applying a bit of brake. I've tried to avoid this, but the geometry of my leg/foot and rudder pedal/brake just seem to conspire to make it difficult. It's very difficult to push with my heel and curl my foot up to avoid the brake pedal (just try it sitting at your desk).

Has anyone got a mechanical fix or solution to this? I still need to actuate the brakes fully.

Thanks, Vern Little
 
I had the same problem when I was transitioning with Mike Seager, and even worse on my own 6. I learned to put my feet on the side of the rudder bars, avoiding the brakes entirely. This is really important on landing. I "slip" or move my feet over for the brakes only when I need them. Kind of like a "heel and toe" in a car.
 
Turtlewood Design has their Never-drag brake pedal mod.
They're over in Doug's main site on the advertiser's list.
I have them but they aren't installed yet.
Basically, they are wood half-round blocks that mount to
the base of the brake pedals.
Cost was somewhere around $25 for one set.

http://www.vansairforce.net/turtlewooddesign/roger.htm

Tom
 
Last edited:
Hose...

I've seen a short length of thick automotive hose attached to the bottom cross piece of the pedal to do the same function as the wood block mentioned above....

gil A
 
ergonomics... leg room... long sorry

Hi,
My RV7 is not flying yet (next sumer?), but...

I was doing transition training with Bob Newhall (in his RV-7) this past spring and I was having a devil of a time getting comfortable with the pedals too. I was holding my feet at about 45 deg to keep off the brakes. Ground handling on the TO roll and landing roll-out were exciting to say the least. Couldn't get comfortable

On the way back to the hanger, we discussed this (my angst about riding the brakes), so he suggested I actually try to press the brakes took lots more effort than I thought. Bob also noticed my legs were bent quite a bit.

We did the easiest adjustment - moved the seat back - back to the rear-most position, now my legs stretch nearly straight out, feels much better. We're the same height +/- but I guess my in-seam is longer than his. He doesn't need the leg room I do

When I set up the rudder pedals in my fuse I did drill 3 mounting locations, they're currently in the middle position.

I am also wearing shoes with much less pronounced heal (no more nike cross-trainers). Timberland loafers, rounded heal, contour of the foot. Saw a couple YAK pilots change into scuba booties (took sneakers off) before doing their thing at the air show 'er demonstration.

I visited another builder in the SFO Bay area and noticed that his brake pedals are actually setup at about 10 deg forward off the vertical, his theory, if you want to press the brakes, ya have to think about it and really press forward.

So for me, seat position, legs comfortable, very light shoes, and I'm considering re-doing my brake pedals adjusting the setup angle. Lots of hanger flying when the upholstered seats get back to be sure I have the ergonomics adjusted for me. Legs comfortable and seat back angle so I can see the best over the nose... probably Halo headsets too but thats another story

my $.02
 
I did exactly what Gil mentioned and it worked well.

You might also consider changing your pedal geometry, by angling the top of the pedal forward a bit. This would require another hole drilled on the side piece of the pedal, and perhaps even a whole new side piece (not much trouble to make a new one.) Just be sure you can push the pedal full over and depress the brake fully without hitting the firewall. There is plenty of room if you set everything up per the plans.
 
Good suggestions. I can move my pedals forward one hole, and that's worth considering. I can change the angle by adjusting the link to the rudder cable.

My concern, however, is that I still need to be able to actuate the brakes. I'll investigate the other proposals as well. I have tried sliding my feet to the sides, but that's not a stable situation when maneuvering. Its all about individual geometry.

I relieved to hear that it's not just my problem. Thanks for the tips.
 
You might try looking at race car driving shoes for the rounded heel's. They are designed to slide back and forth. There are many brands but Simpson is the one I used. You can cut the threads on the logo patch on the side and walk around a fly in without looking like you wished you were in NASCAR.They are available in high tops and low cuts. I used them in my Pitts and didn't like to fly without them.
 
vlittle said:
Good suggestions. I can move my pedals forward one hole, and that's worth considering. I can change the angle by adjusting the link to the rudder cable.

My concern, however, is that I still need to be able to actuate the brakes. I'll investigate the other proposals as well. I have tried sliding my feet to the sides, but that's not a stable situation when maneuvering. Its all about individual geometry.

I relieved to hear that it's not just my problem. Thanks for the tips.
Click to expand...

OK, I've got the fix. I added 3 layers of tubing to the rudder pedals: first layer was 5/8 i.d., second was 1" i.d. and the last was 1-1/4 i.d.

I went to my local marine store an purchased white sanitary lines. This tubing is quite light, easy to slot and cut with a hacksaw and is available in the 'nesting' diameters needed to build up the layers.

The final diameter is 1.5", which helps a lot. I notice a quicker takeoff and better landings. The nosewheel isn't tapping down anymore at touchdown.

Problem solved.
 
I've seen at least one RV that had either Delrin or white UHMW strips bolted thru the bottom bar of the rudder pedal ... they were probably about 1/2" thick or more. Purpose was as discussed above... increase the differential distance between actuating rudder and actuating toe brakes.
 
My brother Ron (RV7a builder) made me some UHMW white plastic "extensions" which are clamshelled around the rudder bar. They are about 3/4" wide and go across the full width of the bar. It is not attached directly to the bar but has another piece of plastic screwed to the back of it--thereby sandwiching the bar. This allows the "extension" to pivot about 20 degrees--thus allowing the foot to always be at 90 degrees to the rudder bar even as the rudder pedal moves.

Sounds more complicated than it is but it works great!!

Cheers,

db
 
vlittle said:
OK, I've got the fix. I added 3 layers of tubing to the rudder pedals: first layer was 5/8 i.d., second was 1" i.d. and the last was 1-1/4 i.d.
I went to my local marine store an purchased white sanitary lines.
Click to expand...

Hey Vern, glad that worked for you. Is this sanitary line tubing flexible like silicone or hard like PVC?
 
edneff said:
Hey Vern, glad that worked for you. Is this sanitary line tubing flexible like silicone or hard like PVC?
Click to expand...

It's basically a stiff, but flexible hose. It's PVC:

marine.jpg


It's lighter than rubber, easy to machine and is available in several diameters.

Vern
 
az_gila said:
I've seen a short length of thick automotive hose attached to the bottom cross piece of the pedal to do the same function as the wood block mentioned above....

gil A
Click to expand...

Thanks for the hint. Two days ago I measured the diameter of the bottom bar on the rudder pedals, went to an auto parts store, bought 2 feet of hose for $1.93, cut it to 4 lengths, split them and slipped them on......about 15 minutes of effort....AND THEY WORK GREAT.
 
Tootsies

I fly in my socks with my shoes off. I can easily feel what I am pushing on and it is comfortable. I wear heavier socks when flying. Seems to work pretty well.
 
Shoeless

Just don't leave your shoes on the wing when you take off...

A buddy of mine (RVator) did during a breakfast run a couple of weeks ago. Got a radio call from a following plane and they had his shoes in hand so they were delivered at the restaurant-but it'll take him awhile to live down the 'shoeless' nickname:D
 
Raise the pedals

My neighbor is building a 7A and is 6'5". After sitting in my 7 he felt the the pedals would be a problem.

I suggested he raise the pedal bars. This was accomplished quite simply by adding a 1.5" blocks under the existing blocks. These were bolted to the main blocks. The center support was raised to accommodate the added height.

The only tricky part was having an extension welded onto the pedals to keep the rudder cable geometry correct. After completing the mode, he felt this would prevent any brake interaction.

BTW, this was ran by Van's prior to any work and they said this has been done many times for the same reason.
 
RV7Guy said:
The only tricky part was having an extension welded onto the pedals to keep the rudder cable geometry correct.
Click to expand...

This step was not needed. If left stock, nothing would have changed. The distance from the pivot point to the cable connection did not change when you raised it.
 
Another consideration.......

.......for all you guys still buiding, is to lean the pedals back before drilling the brake cylinder attach bracket. We placed a yardstick across the rear side of the pedal support tubes (the vertical ones) and clamped it. Then bring the pedals toward you until they touch the yardstick. Drill the cylinder attach brackets and this will give you a few degrees of "rearward" leaning brake pedals.

We also used a 1" spacer block to raise the whole assembly and you have to try to use the brakes. Even my size 12's dont get inadvertant braking:)

Regards,
 
pierre smith said:
.......for all you guys still buiding, is to lean the pedals back before drilling the brake cylinder attach bracket. We placed a yardstick across the rear side of the pedal support tubes (the vertical ones) and clamped it. Then bring the pedals toward you until they touch the yardstick. Drill the cylinder attach brackets and this will give you a few degrees of "rearward" leaning brake pedals.
Click to expand...

I did this exact thing, but I also made the little rudder links a bit shorter and mounted the rudder pedals in the forward-most position so that the rudder pedals are not completely upright in the fuselage -- the bottom ends angle toward the seats. I think many people make the rudder pedals upright and that creates problems since your legs are actually approaching the pedals at an angle.
 
????

gasman said:
This step was not needed. If left stock, nothing would have changed. The distance from the pivot point to the cable connection did not change when you raised it.
Click to expand...

How could it not change? The attachment point was raised 1.5" which put a roughly 10 degree angle on the rudder cable to the point it went through the first snap bushing. Left stock this angle would slowly saw into the snap bushing.
 
Adding blocks and soundproofing foam...

RV7Guy said:
My neighbor is building a 7A and is 6'5". After sitting in my 7 he felt the the pedals would be a problem.

I suggested he raise the pedal bars. This was accomplished quite simply by adding a 1.5" blocks under the existing blocks. These were bolted to the main blocks. The center support was raised to accommodate the added height.

The only tricky part was having an extension welded onto the pedals to keep the rudder cable geometry correct. After completing the mode, he felt this would prevent any brake interaction.

BTW, this was ran by Van's prior to any work and they said this has been done many times for the same reason.
Click to expand...

Even if you are not 6-5, a partial implementation of this modification is a good idea...

IIRC Vans prototypes just use carpet on the floor.... while most builders have been building up the floor with 3/4 soundproofing foam or equivalent before adding carpet.

This puts your heels 3/4 inch higher than the prototypes, so an extra 3/4 inch block under the rudder pedal mounts (I used an alum. "C" channel) just puts your heels in the same location relative to the pedals than Van designed.... and more is probably better for bigger feet....:)

Above is true for -6s, but I don't believe much changed in the rudder pedal geometry for the -9 and -7 forward fuselages....

gil A
 
Solution to unintended braking during take-off or landing

Heels on the floor - not on the pedal, and seat adjusted properly. Puts the balls of your feet where they should be and not on the brakes. Use your toes to brake not your feet.

keith
N355RV
RV9A
 
ksouthar said:
Heels on the floor - not on the pedal, and seat adjusted properly. Puts the balls of your feet where they should be and not on the brakes. Use your toes to brake not your feet.

keith
N355RV
RV9A
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, we don't all have the same feet and leg geometry. With my heels on the floor, the balls of my feet are on the brake pedal. It looks like not having floorboards may help. Perhaps the ultimate solution is to put cut-outs in the floorboards for this. In the meantime, my build-up on the pedal works fine.

V
 
Anybody use these???

I tried posting this on another thread a while back, not much response, so I will try one last time, as this thread is directly related.

Anybody used these units, if so a PIREP would be appreciated.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/filecab/RVSGPedal_Brochure.pdf

I really like the looks/design, but the cost is a bit hard to justify based solely on someones advertising.

Comments, please.

Thanks in advance,
 
Another Solution ?

I am considering making the molds for these extra bottom extensions to sell with my rudder pedals. I plan on molding them out of two different materials. One with a smooth finish for people who want to be able to slide their feet easily up and down and also with a material that would have some grip to it. You will be able to order the lower parts by themselves or as a set with the pedals. If there is enough interest I could have them ready to market in a couple of months.

http://www.jimsairplanes.com/images/pedalframeassyphoto_002.jpg
 
Brake pedals

Mike S said:
I tried posting this on another thread a while back, not much response, so I will try one last time, as this thread is directly related.

Anybody used these units, if so a PIREP would be appreciated.

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/filecab/RVSGPedal_Brochure.pdf

I really like the looks/design, but the cost is a bit hard to justify based solely on someones advertising.

Comments, please.

Thanks in advance,
Click to expand...

Saw them on Cleveland's site also-look kewl-and should for the price. Putting some 3M 2" wide self adhesive non-slip tape on the toe's of my pedals first and see how that works. Same tape that I am putting on the top of my steps to keep from slipping off when wet, so I don't bust my shins. Which I have done on the Warrior. You can get the 3M tape(black) at any Lowe's, Home Depot, etc., looks like wing walk material-probably the same stuff.
Mike H 9A/8A
 
hi

currently reworking the rudder pedals, having discovered the ergonomy issues at about the same time this thread is/was running.

so far having good results with the "hose over weldment" method as well as mounting the whole assembly higher, although being limited by the naca vents on the side...
currently redoing/redesigning the rudder pedals.

classicaero interior floor carpet and van's foam upholstered by classicaero. very comfy!

http://www.flyvans.com/log/2007_12_12_canopy_latch.html (bottom)

regards,
bernie
 
hi

an update to the issue.

had the opportunity to check out the cleaveland "suregrip" rudder pedals borrowed from a fellow builder today and they are simply awesome! gotta get these.

the only negative point is the superhefty price tag. especially considering we have the dual brakes kit, that makes about 400$ just for the pedals :-( :-( :-(

that yells for either competition or a group buy kind of deal. ideas anyone?

thanks a lot,
we'll take 4 pedals

bernie
 
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