Van's Air Force
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Anyone consider a Kitfox?
- Thread starter Greaser
- Start date
Mike_ExpressCT
Well Known Member
Looks pretty comparable to what the -12 will be in terms of performance and pricing. They do look like nice machines...I've never known anyone who's actually built one though. I too would be interested in hearing how the build and flying is on one.
Kevin Nugent
Member
You always have to consider product support when you make a major airplane decision. How many times has Kitfox changed hands,went broke etc.?
airtime
Member
Years ago when I was developing the desire to build a plane I had a friend who built an RV6 and a friend that worked for Kitfox. My wife went for a ride in the 6 and said "we have to have one of those". I went to my friend that worked at Skystar (Kitfox) and told him I was considering building a plane. He asked which one, I stated it was between the kitfox and RV. He told me to go with the RV, I did.
The Kitfox factory was on the field and that was very convenient for unexpected parts purchases. Upon completion of the RV, and considering how I was treated on my one call to technical support at Van's, I publicly acknowleged Van's great product but thanked Kitfox for their support in getting it finished.
The McBean's seem to be doing a good job keeping Kitfox going and have a nice new hanger/factory on the river at the Homedale, ID airport.
I now have many friends with a Kitfox. I still think I'd like to build one since I can't afford to build a Super Cub.
Don't build a KitFox...
until you've flown one and are sure you like it. They don't fly like RVs. I personally don't like the way they fly, but that's a personal thing. You may like it. Also look at what is included in the kit. Many things that you must have are considered options on the KitFox.
If you fly one and like it, then by all means, go for it.
Another means of consideration is go to fly-ins and count the RVs vs. KitFoxes. Check the ratio of started vs. completed kits.
until you've flown one and are sure you like it. They don't fly like RVs. I personally don't like the way they fly, but that's a personal thing. You may like it. Also look at what is included in the kit. Many things that you must have are considered options on the KitFox.
If you fly one and like it, then by all means, go for it.
Another means of consideration is go to fly-ins and count the RVs vs. KitFoxes. Check the ratio of started vs. completed kits.
jonbakerok
Well Known Member
My Kitfox ride
After I sold my 6A, I thought maybe a Kitfox would be the answer to the high cost of flying, since it gets 5gph and I could keep it at home. The performance specs on the factory website don't look that bad -- 1200 fpm climb, 120 mph cruise. No RV, but still usable for the occasional cross-country.
I found a Kitfox-V in Austin with an O-200 for under $30K, and drove over to have a look. It was a beautifully built plane. I spent two hours crawling all over it and was ready to write the check, as soon as we got the formality of test-flying it out of the way.
So we're climbing out and the VSI is barely hitting 300 fpm and I'm getting worried. I asked the guy what's wrong with it, and he says, "what do you mean, everything looks fine". I said I thought it was supposed to get 1200 fpm. He says, "Well, maybe on a cool day at sea level with no passenger, but it's close to 90 today and the field elevation is 830'". But he tweeked the mixture a little and nursed it up to a little to ALMOST 500 fpm.
So we droned on (and on) and finally (miles from the airport and still barely above pattern alt), I get tired of climbing and decide to level off at 2000' to see what the cruise speed might be. The result -- in level flight, even with WOT, it never did touch the 100 knot mark. So I give up and pull the power back to 2375 RPM, and the speed drops to about 80 knots, (a heck of a long way from 120 mph). I ask if that's a typical cruise and he says, yeah that about right, if you want to burn that much gas.
Well, he could tell I wasn't impressed, so he says "slow her down and check out the slow flight". I said I didn't want to screw around with stalls when we were so low, but he said, "just slow her down, you'll be amazed". So I pulled it back to 50 knots and tried a few turns. Man was this was a rudder plane! I couldn't keep the ball centered to save my life. It needed lots of rudder, but the rudder was so twitchy that I kept over doing in it. The guy says, "Come on, it'll go lots slower that this!" And he takes the plane and pulls it off until the speed drops BELOW the airspeed indicator! I have no idea how slow we were going, but the bottom number was 40 and the green arc was at 45 (knots). He does a bunch of turns and I can feel a burble now and then and sorry, but I was too scared to amazed. I will admit, though, it will definately fly slow, if that's your thing.
So I crossed Kitfox of my list, but ever since that ride, I've wondered if they're all that slow or if there was just something wrong with that plane.
I notice that Tony Partain is building a Kitfox. Tony, did you get a ride in one? Please tell me they're not all that bad! I sure would like to build one.
After I sold my 6A, I thought maybe a Kitfox would be the answer to the high cost of flying, since it gets 5gph and I could keep it at home. The performance specs on the factory website don't look that bad -- 1200 fpm climb, 120 mph cruise. No RV, but still usable for the occasional cross-country.
I found a Kitfox-V in Austin with an O-200 for under $30K, and drove over to have a look. It was a beautifully built plane. I spent two hours crawling all over it and was ready to write the check, as soon as we got the formality of test-flying it out of the way.
So we're climbing out and the VSI is barely hitting 300 fpm and I'm getting worried. I asked the guy what's wrong with it, and he says, "what do you mean, everything looks fine". I said I thought it was supposed to get 1200 fpm. He says, "Well, maybe on a cool day at sea level with no passenger, but it's close to 90 today and the field elevation is 830'". But he tweeked the mixture a little and nursed it up to a little to ALMOST 500 fpm.
So we droned on (and on) and finally (miles from the airport and still barely above pattern alt), I get tired of climbing and decide to level off at 2000' to see what the cruise speed might be. The result -- in level flight, even with WOT, it never did touch the 100 knot mark. So I give up and pull the power back to 2375 RPM, and the speed drops to about 80 knots, (a heck of a long way from 120 mph). I ask if that's a typical cruise and he says, yeah that about right, if you want to burn that much gas.
Well, he could tell I wasn't impressed, so he says "slow her down and check out the slow flight". I said I didn't want to screw around with stalls when we were so low, but he said, "just slow her down, you'll be amazed". So I pulled it back to 50 knots and tried a few turns. Man was this was a rudder plane! I couldn't keep the ball centered to save my life. It needed lots of rudder, but the rudder was so twitchy that I kept over doing in it. The guy says, "Come on, it'll go lots slower that this!" And he takes the plane and pulls it off until the speed drops BELOW the airspeed indicator! I have no idea how slow we were going, but the bottom number was 40 and the green arc was at 45 (knots). He does a bunch of turns and I can feel a burble now and then and sorry, but I was too scared to amazed. I will admit, though, it will definately fly slow, if that's your thing.
So I crossed Kitfox of my list, but ever since that ride, I've wondered if they're all that slow or if there was just something wrong with that plane.
I notice that Tony Partain is building a Kitfox. Tony, did you get a ride in one? Please tell me they're not all that bad! I sure would like to build one.
Hummmmm.... how do I say this. I love my kitty. It's a model 4 1200. On a cold day with just me I get 2000ft per min. on take off. With the wife yes I get less, but that is true in any small aircraft. I weigh 170, I keep the fuel at half on the tanks. I have an IVO prop. Rotax 912ul 80. This thing is just incredible. Fun fun fun. I hope I have as much fun in the RV, oh wait, I'm keeping both. The RV is for my cross country flights, the kitfox will be for the local hair raising stuff. I don't know about the 7, but what I've seen with Mcbeans airplane, it will satisfy me. Sure you need to use the rudder on this plane, but so do you on the rv if you slow to 60kts. I've done it and felt it was the same as my fox. I can fly circles around anybody in the pattern. I can do 3 touch and go's in the amount of time it takes a Cessna to fly final. I call my fox my little fighter plane, very fun. Very inexpensive to fly. This year I've put 300hrs on her.
steve
steve
mrblob
Well Known Member
I owned a Kitfox IV for a couple years. It was a '94 kit, so had the 1050 gross weight rather than 1200, and was powered by a Rotax 582 (64 HP, if memory serves). I bought it used, and was not involved in the build process. I'll start by saying it was a lot of fun to fly, but it did have some drawbacks...
Climb performance was poor at best. At gross, 300 fpm was pretty typical (and a bit scary). Solo, I would frequently see 600-800, but rarely (if ever) more than that. In cruise, the needle would usually settle between 90 and 95 mph (not knots). Handling was interesting. Kitfoxes are definitely stick and rudder planes. With the massive flaperons, the adverse yaw is huge, and with a relatively short coupled airframe, changes in power settings would swing the ball full deflection. I learned to lead turns and power changes with plenty of rudder in order to keep the ball centered. As for flying slow, I could maintain straight and level flight with the airspeed indicator reading slightly below 30 mph, which was the lowest number on it.
I think a Kitfox IV-1200 with a bigger engine (the 80 hp 912, or better yet, the 110 hp Rotec radial) would be a blast.
I sold mine because I was ready to buy an engine and avionics for my RV-7 and needed to free up the funds.
Paul
Climb performance was poor at best. At gross, 300 fpm was pretty typical (and a bit scary). Solo, I would frequently see 600-800, but rarely (if ever) more than that. In cruise, the needle would usually settle between 90 and 95 mph (not knots). Handling was interesting. Kitfoxes are definitely stick and rudder planes. With the massive flaperons, the adverse yaw is huge, and with a relatively short coupled airframe, changes in power settings would swing the ball full deflection. I learned to lead turns and power changes with plenty of rudder in order to keep the ball centered. As for flying slow, I could maintain straight and level flight with the airspeed indicator reading slightly below 30 mph, which was the lowest number on it.
I think a Kitfox IV-1200 with a bigger engine (the 80 hp 912, or better yet, the 110 hp Rotec radial) would be a blast.
I sold mine because I was ready to buy an engine and avionics for my RV-7 and needed to free up the funds.
Paul
Tony Partain
Well Known Member
RV vs Kitfox
These are two entirely different airplanes.
The RV is fast and nimble, like a sports car. The Kitfox is slower heavier on the controls. Kitfox stalls slower and goes slower. I would call it a modern version of the Cub. My RV7 would climb out a 2000 fpm with a 180 hp IO360. My friends Kitfox climbs out at 1200 fpm with a 100hp Rotax. RV7 cruise 200mph at 8.7gph, Kitfox cruise 125 mph at 5.5gph.
Vans will provide you with a better support group, just because they are larger than Kitfox. Kitfox will give you everything you need in the support department. Both are good companies just different just as the planes are very different.
The 0200 option is not recommended by the factory. Weight vs. hp is very important on a Kitfox. If the 0200 is stock it will not perform as well as the Rotax due to the lower hp to weight ratio. The 0200 limits the prop options also. The Rotax version that I am talking about has an electric in flight adjustable prop. Not a true constant speed, but it makes a significant difference on climb and cruise.
As far as the Kitfox past, that?s the past. Kitfox now has a great group of investors. They are selling planes at a good clip. I have seen the new operation and they are lean and have a good set up now, smaller buildings and fewer employees. John and Debra have the company on track. If you need a part and call Debra you can count on it being sent ASAP. Do I have access to financials? No. But I do know they are selling quite a few planes and doing business the way I would like to see. When you need something they take care of it. My kit is complete, the plans are easy to read and construction is simple.
Bottom line is fast and nimble vs. low and slow. You make the call.
These are two entirely different airplanes.
The RV is fast and nimble, like a sports car. The Kitfox is slower heavier on the controls. Kitfox stalls slower and goes slower. I would call it a modern version of the Cub. My RV7 would climb out a 2000 fpm with a 180 hp IO360. My friends Kitfox climbs out at 1200 fpm with a 100hp Rotax. RV7 cruise 200mph at 8.7gph, Kitfox cruise 125 mph at 5.5gph.
Vans will provide you with a better support group, just because they are larger than Kitfox. Kitfox will give you everything you need in the support department. Both are good companies just different just as the planes are very different.
The 0200 option is not recommended by the factory. Weight vs. hp is very important on a Kitfox. If the 0200 is stock it will not perform as well as the Rotax due to the lower hp to weight ratio. The 0200 limits the prop options also. The Rotax version that I am talking about has an electric in flight adjustable prop. Not a true constant speed, but it makes a significant difference on climb and cruise.
As far as the Kitfox past, that?s the past. Kitfox now has a great group of investors. They are selling planes at a good clip. I have seen the new operation and they are lean and have a good set up now, smaller buildings and fewer employees. John and Debra have the company on track. If you need a part and call Debra you can count on it being sent ASAP. Do I have access to financials? No. But I do know they are selling quite a few planes and doing business the way I would like to see. When you need something they take care of it. My kit is complete, the plans are easy to read and construction is simple.
Bottom line is fast and nimble vs. low and slow. You make the call.
Two different airplanes, hummm... I fly a bunch. When I fly my fiends rv8 I find it a non event, flying from the back, I have no guages, I have full controls, but no guages. I can fly this rv looking out the window and hold within 50ft vertical, no problem, and do turns and level flight, no problem. I raise up and look at the guages once in awhile, again no problems. I guess it's all up to the person flying. I told a person once, because they where pointing out airplanes that were safe, I said it's the person flying the airplane that makes the aircraft safe, not the airplane. They thought and agreed.
My group of airplane friends includes the owner of an older Kitfox (model II, I think), 582 power, 3/1 gearing, large 3 blade Warp. The airplane has been with us quite a while, and the airframe has been entirely trouble free. Cabin space is way too small for tall people. This older model has the long undercambered wing, so it is slow, requires serious rudder coordination, and is difficult to wheel land. When flown solo it can depart with more climb angle than anything on the field; I have no idea about climb rate. You can operate from a postage stamp runway; a previous owner was a regular visitor to his Dad's 300 ft garden berm. All in all it has been a very good cheap sport plane for Sunday afternoon flying. It might be a poor choice for a guy based at a major airport and flying cross country.
The owner is building a Rans S-7 to replace the Kitfox, with 912 power. More room, more cruise speed.
The owner is building a Rans S-7 to replace the Kitfox, with 912 power. More room, more cruise speed.
I had my fox stationed at a class c airspace, international airport for a year and a half. In that time period I learned how to fly, believe me. now I have trouble staying out of trouble at the smaller airports. Why, short approaches and short turnouts. The small mom and pop airports just hate me, I fly in and touch down before anybody knows I'm there, my radio calls generally sound like this, on down wind, turning short 19, base and final. Next thing you hear is, clear of 19. All within about 2 minutes or less. When I fly into the big airport, everybody there knows me, I'm greated with a smile, they know their counts for touch and go's is going to go up. I'm no way, in the way. they love me, and ask me to return. Which I do.
Paul Tuttle
Well Known Member
What's the mission
I have a Quad city challenger, a couple of my friends each have a kitfox. What type you decide on depends entirely what you want to do with it.
I can land on a 400' lake with skis in winter or a 1000' lake on floats in the summer. You can tear up the patch for about $15.00 per hour and major the engine for $1200.00. They are a lot of fun to toy around with.
The downside is speed, and... let's call it sport performance.
If your flying into a 20kt. headwind in the challenger or Kitfox you are in for a long day if you are going anywhere, if it happens to be a little turbulant that day it gets old quick as well, for me at least. I also can't imagine they're great acro aircraft either.
I live in Canada so it's nice to have the ultralight for winter flying (no winter maintenance at our strip) and such, but I'm building an -8 so I can enjoy both ends of the spectrum.
I have a Quad city challenger, a couple of my friends each have a kitfox. What type you decide on depends entirely what you want to do with it.
I can land on a 400' lake with skis in winter or a 1000' lake on floats in the summer. You can tear up the patch for about $15.00 per hour and major the engine for $1200.00. They are a lot of fun to toy around with.
The downside is speed, and... let's call it sport performance.
If your flying into a 20kt. headwind in the challenger or Kitfox you are in for a long day if you are going anywhere, if it happens to be a little turbulant that day it gets old quick as well, for me at least. I also can't imagine they're great acro aircraft either.
I live in Canada so it's nice to have the ultralight for winter flying (no winter maintenance at our strip) and such, but I'm building an -8 so I can enjoy both ends of the spectrum.
DanB
Active Member
Kitfox Stuff
5 years ago I started drooling over the RV machines. They are in a class all their own and as all of us know ...great little time-machines! I flew back to Oshkosh (from Phoenix) a year ago with a friend and we did it in 8 hours...what a great time!
On the other end of the stick... I am currently building a KF-IV 1200 which has a Rotax 912s (100HP) on the front of it. I also will have an in-flight adjustable Ivo-Prop like Partain eluded to. This combination of airframe and engine is the one that can and does have magnificent climb-out and can cruise at 125mph.
I flew with a buddy of mine to Homedale,Idaho a month ago in his KF-IV that was set up as I am building mine. We probably averaged 115MPH and it took us about 9 hours. Sure, it's slower than an RV, but the Kitfox has a completely different mission. We attended the annual Kitfox flyin at Homedale where we had 33 Kitfoxes attend. I will attest to seeing a strong company in progress. John and Deb McBean have worked hard to bring the company around 180 degrees...and they do have substantial backing.
Someday I may build an RV, but for now I will be quite happy with my choice as my wife and I enjoy flying back country and smelling the roses along the way.
Dan B
KF-IV- 314DW
5 years ago I started drooling over the RV machines. They are in a class all their own and as all of us know ...great little time-machines! I flew back to Oshkosh (from Phoenix) a year ago with a friend and we did it in 8 hours...what a great time!
On the other end of the stick... I am currently building a KF-IV 1200 which has a Rotax 912s (100HP) on the front of it. I also will have an in-flight adjustable Ivo-Prop like Partain eluded to. This combination of airframe and engine is the one that can and does have magnificent climb-out and can cruise at 125mph.
I flew with a buddy of mine to Homedale,Idaho a month ago in his KF-IV that was set up as I am building mine. We probably averaged 115MPH and it took us about 9 hours. Sure, it's slower than an RV, but the Kitfox has a completely different mission. We attended the annual Kitfox flyin at Homedale where we had 33 Kitfoxes attend. I will attest to seeing a strong company in progress. John and Deb McBean have worked hard to bring the company around 180 degrees...and they do have substantial backing.
Someday I may build an RV, but for now I will be quite happy with my choice as my wife and I enjoy flying back country and smelling the roses along the way.
Dan B
KF-IV- 314DW
Kitfoxjunky
I'm New Here
Kitfox vs RV .. why??
I have a KF IV on anphib floats. I have several RV type friends, one with a F1Rocket. Different mission profiles guys. It is like comparing a Cubby to a Glasair (I was going to say Cub vs Mooney but hey...homebuilts rule). If you are in interested in the slower end of the airspeed indicator..check out www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox and have a look at the adventures 2007 folder. This documents the type of flying you can do with a Kitfox.
The comment from the gent who looked at a KF IV with an 0-200...I am surprised you got 300 FPM. That engine is not the norm and way too heavy for the airframe. I run a 100 HP Rotax 912S and get more than 1000 fpm and 100 mph cruise..with anphib floats.
I have a KF IV on anphib floats. I have several RV type friends, one with a F1Rocket. Different mission profiles guys. It is like comparing a Cubby to a Glasair (I was going to say Cub vs Mooney but hey...homebuilts rule). If you are in interested in the slower end of the airspeed indicator..check out www.decisionlabs.com/kitfox and have a look at the adventures 2007 folder. This documents the type of flying you can do with a Kitfox.
The comment from the gent who looked at a KF IV with an 0-200...I am surprised you got 300 FPM. That engine is not the norm and way too heavy for the airframe. I run a 100 HP Rotax 912S and get more than 1000 fpm and 100 mph cruise..with anphib floats.
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