Dynon vs. Enigma: weekend installs-Joint posting

Jerry McDowell and I (Vern Darley) pulled our RV's next to each other in the Falcon RV Squadron hanger this weekend and began upgrading our panels to newer technologies. Jerry has an RV-7 and I have an RV-6A. We both have O-320's and Sensenich props. We both had standard six pack steam gages and vacuum pumps. We thought that since there has been a lot of interest in the new Enigma, it would be fun to be like 'Click and Clack' and do a side-by-side comparison as we pull the old out and install the new.
What came in the Enigma box:
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/4170/p9070014oa9.jpg

What came in the Dynon box:
http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p9070012dr0.jpg

It's 10 pm Ga time and Jerry just fired his new Enigma up. He basically worked all weekend and is not completely done, but when we pulled his RV-7 out of the hanger and started the engine, the Enigma came online and gave good engine data, a nice looking EFIS, and an internal GPS. I got my old panel out, cutout a new .090 aluminum left panel, fitted all my steam gages for backups except AI, DG, and VVI and installed the Dynon mount into the panel. After I get it powdercoated, I'll bolt back all into the panel. Most of my wiring is run.

Because I had other activities this weekend, I did not get quite so far along on installing the Dynon D-100 as Jerry did on the Enigma. Since it has it's own internal backup battery, I was able to 'fly' it around in the hanger as it came out of the box and would immediately operate. If I had spent as much time as Jerry, I think I would be at the same stage as he is.

We took pix of each unit as it came out of the box so you can see what you get for your money. We will upload the pix ASAP.

We each benefited greatly from having modular panels. It made upgrading our panels so much easier. I have a three section aluminum panel made by Fabian from Affordable Panels and Jerry has a molded fiberglass panel.

Jerry will add to this posting when he gets home. As we complete the install we will give our opinions regarding the two units. So, Jerry-weigh in!
Ask any questions and we will try to answer them.

Maybe it's a long write-up, but I'm anxiously waiting to read the Enigma part of this thread.

Enigma install-{For Jerry-he's real busy!}

Jerry's wife is about to have their firstborn and between that and his work, Jerry has been maxed out since the night we fired up his Enigma. He does have pix to upload and a story to tell as he relates his install of his Enigma. Be patient little longer please!

Vern,
I had no idea when you said that you were doing "a little work" on your panel, that you were "going to glass"! I can't wait to see it! I, like the others, can't wait for pictures and side by side comparisons of the 2 models!!!!!!!

Enigma- first thoughts...

I only have a minute for my first thoughts on the Enigma Install.

First some caveats;
1. I haven't gotten the plane off the ground yet since installing the Engima
2. I resort to reading the instructions as a last resort when troglodyte pictures fail.
3. I tried to fit a lot of stuff in my time to get the panel flying asap.

I spent about 20 hours last weekend working on replacing my steam gauges with the Engima. The appeal of the Enigma for me was that it packed of lot of punch for the money. The Enigma automatically comes with a built in GPS and the PFD instruments and you can add the AHRS, COMPASS, and EIS separate. I got all three.

My installation is a REDO- the plane was flying with Westach gauges and probes. I was able to use the westach probes, so I didn't buy them.

I meant to buy the fuel flow sensor and forgot- it WILL be ordered!

The COMPASS and AHRS installation (separate units) are each about the size of a matchbox. I located them in the tunnel from the spar forward, just ahead at the fuel selector. It 'appeared' to be a low magnetic area centrally located. We'll see...

The install was very simple- I used velcro (it's sandwiched in the tunnel).

The EIS box (RADX) is also pretty simple. There are compression screws that hold the stripped wire in place for each sensor and I made a shelf that riveted behind the subpanel. They suggest mounting on the engine side, and that would have been easy, but my probes were wired already inside the firewall- so it was simpler for me to get everything wired (except the 10 hrs upside down under the panel part).

The EIS has three wires that go to the ENIGMA. It has an engine ground and a 12v line that goes to the AVIONICS master. Beyond the sensors you choose to install- that's it! I had to actually read the instructions to get everything wired to the right place- but it was simple enough.

The Actual Enigma is plug-n-play. Power is striaght forward, GPS, RDACX leads, pitot, static, a RCA plug for the AHRS/COMPASS- that was the easy part.

I also added a small Airspeed and Altimeter on the right side as a back-up, removed some older gauges, relocated some others, removed the vacuum system, removed the oil separator that didn't work, and cleaned up some wiring.

I'm not done yet, but the Enigma has been straightforward thus far and fires up great and looks good.

All this for $3200- best bang for the buck. Plus I can upgrade screens and leave everything else later if I wanted...

I plan to add the fuel flow sensor (maybe 2 if I can for each tank) and wire for the built-in alt encoder when I change out the transponder (waiting for MGL...). I'll add a Trutrak ADI II soon.

I emailed Vern pictures, so hopefully he has a little more time than I do to post the picts.

His panel is looking great , I stopped over today!

PS- a whole 8 pack plus panel with subpanel will be for sale soon...

SLIDESHOW of Enigma/Dynon Installation...

GO HERE:
http://adobe.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=7jawebvr.5wezp7an&x=0&y=2wi3r9


More Feedback Specifically:

The compass and gyro are separate with MGL Avionics. They offer different units for different applications. They don't have a combined unit or one with the compass built in like Dynon has, but the compass and gyro are both pretty small.

They each has a small connector and RCA plug. They provide the plug for the connector and it has a whopping two wires- ground and a 1 amp slow blo inline fused (you provide) power line. The RCA plug can be combined (as I did) and transmits the data from the units to the Enigma 'head' unit using their "Air-Link" data process (??).

They suggest the install be as close to the CG as practical while away from magnetic deviation. They suggest a maximum of 10 deg magnetic deviation. I used my vertical card compass to "Ouji" around the cockpit to find an acceptable location. I found the forward tunnel by the fuel selector to be an optimal location for running wire/ center of gravity/ low magnetic deviation. We'll see how that works out. I ran a 6' RCA cable (provided) and two 16ga. wires (could have used 22ga. but I felt it was on the thin side) to the Enigma.

RDACX (that's their name for the EIS box)- they make several RDAC's and you can use multiple if you have a twin. I got the 12 channel RDAC so I could use it for all 4 EGT and all 4 CHT probes. I also have a oil temp, and oil pressure probe, 2 fuel level sensors (running off of Vans gauges to the EIS unit). I plan on adding the fuel flow sensor which connects with 3 wires.

NOTE: I missed this the first time around- you wire the channels 1-4 with the 1-4 EGT then 8-12 channels are for 1-4 CHT.

If this was a new install- it would be VERY simple. You mount it ON THE FIREWALL ENGINE COMPARTMENT SIDE- yup that's right- engine side. You run the ground to the engine block. You run the power line to the Avionics Master power (+12v). You run a 3 wire line to the Enigma. That's it. All the other probe wires stay on the engine compartment side.

Because mine was a redo, I had to mount the RDAC and re-rerun a bunch of wires.

INSTALLING THE ENIGMA:

The actual wiring is VERY straightforward. They admit right away that the manual is a work in progress. I also admit that it would have been nice to get a bound manual versus a CD- but hey! Who looks at those things anyways!

MGL's website is not as current as the CD they send with the Enigma. I had downloaded the installation guide and the 1st 40 pages of the users manual. AFTER I installed the unit, I popped the CD in late one night before bed to find A LOT more info than I had read in the download. Not a big deal, but more informative.

I taxiied the plane back to my hangar the next afternoon and the artificial horizon 'appeared' to work as well as the airspeed and altimeter. The screen even showed the runways as I taxiied in that direction.

Once the basic installation was complete, I have been reading on setting up all the probe limits and alarms as well as fine tuning the pitch,level,slip,etc. etc...I'm not all the way through that part yet.

I actually need to ask some more knowledgeable RV'ers about these things before I can finish up (Vern would know all this stuff) inputting my V speeds, temps, pressures, yada yada...

USE OF THE ENIGMA:

This is still very early- I haven't flown with the Enigma yet...

The GPS map that is included not as good as a Garmin 396- but it has similar functions. The zoom is not lightning fast, but there's a lot of things going on as well. It will bring up the nearest airports and it shows the relative direction by an arrow from where you are, the runways, the distance, and the frequency. If you choose that airport (1-9 on the keyboard or the down arrow for more), it gives you more freq's, the altitude, runway distance and some more info. Not as complete as Garmins data- but pretty good. I understand there are ways to add/subtract from the maps to make it faster and more complete. Frankly, I haven't gotten that far AND I have a Garmin 196 (planning to upgrade after pocketbook refills) that works very well as a backup.

The combo screens are really nice, large enough, easy to see- day or night.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY like that I can change the screens. You can change the fields on the Garmins, but with the Enigma you have a lot of flexibility to get exactly the information you want.

I like the telephone keypad- it's a LOT faster than scrolling through the alphabet on the Garmin. They have a nice search for airports that's pretty simple.

I've only played with the Enigma for about 2 hours now and I'm just getting the limits set and a better feel for the navigation.

I'm anxious to get her flying to see what she can do in flight...more to follow.

Great post Jerry,
I will be refitting our standard 6 with an Enigma (should arrive tomorrow )
Not sure if you know, but the free data set that comes with the Enigma will be able to be replaced with the Pocket FMS data soon. This is probably the best data for a GA flyer (in Europe anyway not sure how widespread in the US). Ranier of MGL is just finalising the details.

I thought I would have to run the SP2 compass out on the wingtip and put the SP4 under the seat, but a floor tunnel mount looks like a good time saver!

Any updates guys?

update:Enigma/Dynon D-100

Jerry and I flew together a few days ago. We have both been pretty busy. The Enigma seems to be performing as Jerry has described. I noticed from the right seat of his RV-7 that the screen of the Enigma is almost not readable inflight due the paralex angle.This would limit the seat as well as an instructor monitoring the attitude and position.(me)
My Dynon is quite visible and much brighter and clearer, imho. I have enjoyed tracking VOR's ,etc using the built-in Dynon HSI. It is so cool to have your TAS displayed.I haven't shot an ILS yet but intend to.I am about to install the HS-34 unit on the D-100 as my next step.

More later. Thanks for asking!

Thanks - I'm interested because I just got my plane back from the paint shop and hope to be flying my D180 / HS34 / GNS 480 / TruTrack VSGV within about a month. I'm especially interested to know how reliable the Dynon is - if I get to the point where I'm truly confident in it I may ditch the steam gages (to be relegated to the right as "backup") in favor of another Dynon and a pad-mount second alternator.

Can't wait to fly my first practice GPSS approach to DH then watch the autopilot execute missed approach and enter holding all on its' own!

Hummmmm

This really sucks....!!

I still don't know which one I want to purchase...!!

Comparing Enigma display to a Dynon D-180 is comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different display technologies. It would be better to compare the D-180 to the MGL Odyssey/Voyager/Explorer series just now being introduced.

D-180 vs Odyssey

GrayHawk said:

Comparing Enigma display to a Dynon D-180 is comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different display technologies. It would be better to compare the D-180 to the MGL Odyssey/Voyager/Explorer series just now being introduced.

Click to expand...

Except the Odyssey has moving map, HIT, can control radios, and has 10.4 inch display. The D-180 has a 7 inch But I guess you get those extra features for more money.

I'm a little confused on the prices though..
I found the Odyssey for $3300 http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/MfgJR/MGLAvionics-ODYSSEY.html

And the Dynon 180 for $3200 at steinair http://www.steinair.com/dynon.htm

So maybe the prices are not that different? (of course the prices above is not including all the probes, etc...)

Christopher.

The $3200 for the Dynon D-180 includes the internal ADAHRS, the remote compass, and all the engine monitoring inputs. All you need to add is engine probes.

$3300 is just the Odyssey screen. You need to add an AHRS module, compass module, and an EMS module if you want to do attitude, heading, or engine monitoring. You then add the probes to that price.

GrayHawk said:

Comparing Enigma display to a Dynon D-180 is comparing apples to oranges. They are two totally different display technologies. It would be better to compare the D-180 to the MGL Odyssey/Voyager/Explorer series just now being introduced.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure it is like comparing apples to oranges as both fruits are expected to do the same job. Thus if one is unreadable from an angle, and that is an important feature to the end user, who cares about the display technology employed, it is still unreadable. Just MHO.

I have yet to see and Enigma and can't wait to check one out. Heck, I can't wait to fly behind my friends GRT and see how it compares to my Dynon D100 EFIS & D10 EMS.

dynonsupport said:

The $3200 for the Dynon D-180 includes the internal ADAHRS, the remote compass, and all the engine monitoring inputs. All you need to add is engine probes.

$3300 is just the Odyssey screen. You need to add an AHRS module, compass module, and an EMS module if you want to do attitude, heading, or engine monitoring. You then add the probes to that price.

Click to expand...

aww ok, so that looks about $1100 bucks more. atleast from this place.
http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/MfgJR/MGLAvionics-AttitudeHeading.html#sp2

Christopher

Plus $175-$265 for the engine monitor box.

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/airsec/Avionics/MfgJR/MGLAvionics-EngineMonitors.html

Take into consideration the price of having a real good gps with the dynon, and you are actually cheaper with the odyssee!

Jarvis

We'd disagree.

D180: $3200
Garmin 296: $1200
Total: $4400

Oddyseey: $3300
AHRS: $900
Compass: $200
EMS: $265
Total: $4665

Going with a D180 and a Garmin 296 actually saves you $265 and you get a standalone GPS from Garmin in the mix.

If what you are looking at is a EFIS + EMS + GPS, both the Dynon and MGL options are very affordable and very similar in price. You'll probably need to look deeper than price to make your decision.

Agree that you'd have to look deeper. I've gone through the online web-store at Dynon's website and if you compare all the things you would need to make the unit more comparable to the Odyssey then it starts adding up. The brightscreen option (needed for a bubble canopy) is $200. The backup battery is $130. The HS34, which gives you aural warnings and more connectivity options than the standard -180, is $650. That puts you at $4180 for the same functionality that exists in the MGL Odyssey, minus HITS, GPS, synthetic terrain, the ability to customize, etc, etc. (Note: the Odyssey backup battery is $30).

I'm not against Dynon at all...actually I think they have great products, but they're being edged out by competitors. Competition is a great thing!

This is just my opinion and what functionality is important to me. Your mileage may vary, etc. I've been comparing every EFIS out there since Oshkosh and so far I'm leaning toward MGL. It's not too late to change my mind, but some other EFIS company better come out with some killer new features really fast if they want my money.

Update: just wanted to throw out there the screen size of the Odyssey...it's too big for my RV-7A. The Voyager is what I plan on going with and it's screen size is 8" (similar to the D180). Not sure about pricing, but I'm hoping they'll make it less than $3,000.

Update #2: A fellow builder and friend recently pointed out the Advanced Flight Systems EFIS...very nice! I have to say that they are my 2nd choice if MGL doesn't pan out for some reason. They have very similar functionality (most important to me) and their prices are competitive (also important to me).

As soon as I get my panel home from the paint shop, I will a post a picture so that you can see that the Oddyssee is not to big at all. It actually fits and looks really nice. With all the features that the Oddysee has, I am sure that the screen will not end up being to big in the end. However my install is going into a sliding canopy configuration, where there is no support ribs to interfere.

Jarvis

jrvssgl said:

As soon as I get my panel home from the paint shop, I will a post a picture so that you can see that the Oddyssee is not to big at all. It actually fits and looks really nice. With all the features that the Oddysee has, I am sure that the screen will not end up being to big in the end.

Jarvis

Click to expand...

Hi Jarvis,
Thanks! I'd like to see what it looks like. What I would like to do is have a dual EFIS setup and the comm/xpndr in the center. The switches would be located under the EFIS in front of the pilot and I had assumed that there wouldn't be room with the Odyssey. That is if you take into account having to mount the EFIS low enough to clear the rib behind the panel.

lostpilot28 said:

Hi Jarvis,
Thanks! I'd like to see what it looks like. What I would like to do is have a dual EFIS setup and the comm/xpndr in the center. The switches would be located under the EFIS in front of the pilot and I had assumed that there wouldn't be room with the Odyssey. That is if you take into account having to mount the EFIS low enough to clear the rib behind the panel.

Click to expand...

I also plan a center 'stack' in an older RV-6A tip-up; initially using one Voyager EFIS on the left side. Maybe we can trade notes.

I did have to run my switches to the left of the display. The other option I debated was to make a seperate channel on the bottom of the instrument panel all the way across that would hold both the switches and throttle controls and look very neat. There was actually a thread somewhere in VAF where a person used the channel across the bottom, he posted pictures, and it looked quite good.

Jarvis

Let me start by stating that I don't like the "Dynon vs. Enigma" heading.
If anything, that should be "Dynon vs MGL" or "Dxxx vs Enigma".

But that is not the point I am trying to make.

I believe that comparison is futile and quite pointless. Both Dynon and ourselves make good products - they are simply different and and from the ground up designed to achieve a different route to your cockpit.
This is why I don't even think that Dynon is our competitor.
If you would like a relatively limited EFIS or engine monitor with fixed functionality at a good price (kind of "fit and forget"), then Dynon is your choice and it will make you happy.
If you like to mess around and want everything that opens and shuts and are not afraid of getting your keyboard dirty and want a good price - well then we are your choice.

If you really want to compare apples with apples - I think that perhaps, respectfully speaking, you should have a look at AFS.

We are perhaps often compared to Dynon because both of us are in a similar price ball park in the U.S. - Don't look at price. Price does not mean much. Look at what you want and need. Then choose. Our prices, for what you are getting, in terms of the U.S. Dollar are good. That is because, despite the rapidly falling value of the U.S. Dollar and the high cost of shipping our instruments from South Africa where they are made, our own currency is very cheap when compared to the USD. The price of a Big Mac in Cape Town may surprise you if you come for a visit. For us (that don't earn USD), the price of our instruments is high and those of Dynon and others MUCH higher as they need to be shipped here. If the USD falls much further, our pricing in the U.S. will increase while products made in the U.S. will become cheaper everywhere else. However - that tends to be temporary only as obviously this will have an inflationary effect on the USD so at the end everything is back to square one.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

dynonsupport said:

The $3200 for the Dynon D-180 includes the internal ADAHRS, the remote compass, and all the engine monitoring inputs. All you need to add is engine probes.

$3300 is just the Odyssey screen. You need to add an AHRS module, compass module, and an EMS module if you want to do attitude, heading, or engine monitoring. You then add the probes to that price.

Click to expand...

Allthough this is perhaps of lesser value to many RV flyers, one of the reasons the AHRS is external is that you don't allways need one. And if you don't, the Odyssey works just fine without it complete with 3D terrain - and you save a lot of money in the bargain. Of course, nothing stops you from adding one later (strategically mention this just before next xmas to your wife).

A minimum Odyssey system (in my view) would be the Odyssey itself, a compass module (so you can have windspeeds/directions in flight) and if you want the Odyssey to do engine monitoring you pick one of the RDACs suitable for your engine. Compass and RDACs can be quite cheap - so that is hardly a factor.

The external AHRS also means that for demanding applications you can pick a high specification unit like our SP-5 or SP-5 aerobatic version.

If you just get the "naked" Odyssey, you still get quite a complete, very functional system and it will complement your panel if you have existing horizons and engine gauges. The "naked" Odyssey is certainly more than just a screen. Much more. And it comes at a good and very fair price, no matter from what angle you look at it.

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

The point of the post was for the installation, not the products per se...

This was not intended to be a product comparison post, simply comparing installations of each system.

We are both very happy with our choices.

Vern has a metal subpanel system and I have a Laird Owens fiberglass subpanel system.

Vern had a more developed panel plan than I did and proceeded to spend more time cleaning up his panel wiring for a 'final' panel layout, while I knew that I would be changing out equipment soon, so I tried to get the Enigma up and running pretty quickly. I didn't wire the transponder altitude encoder, the audio line, the battery backup, the autopilot- because I knew I would be rewiring all those as soon as a radio went out or MGL started selling the NAV/COMs (hopefully black box versions). Of course annual is coming up and I will probably spend time finishing up the installation to the Enigma then.

So the title of the post could have been:

"Comparative installations of a Dynon D100 in a RV6a and a MGL Avionics Enigma in a RV7 working together over the course of a weekend and we're very happy with both systems."

But that seems a bit long.

Anyways, it was never intended to 'bash' either company or compare features.

dynonsupport said:

Going with a D180 and a Garmin 296 actually saves you $265 and you get a standalone GPS from Garmin in the mix.

Click to expand...

Does Dynon plan on coming out with a model that has GPS support?

Christopher.