"A" model Grove Aircraft nose wheel help

I purchased a model 59-1A nose wheel assembly from Grove Aircraft and a 11x4.00-5 (Lamb) tire and tube from Vans. The reason I did this is I did not like the matco wheel bearing seal design. I believe the nose wheel should always turn freely and that the breakout force for the caster is the critical perameter to prevent shimmy etc. The problem I am having is the tire bead will not seat against the flange of the rim. I talced the tire, tube and rim and then assembled the wheel halves making sure the tube was not pinched. I then torqued the thru bolts and inflated the tire several times to 30 psi. The beads on both sides would only come to within a 1/4 inch of each flange but the side wall of the tire would contact the outer edge of the flange making it look as though the beads were all the way over. The reason I can tell they are not seated is I never got that pop you hear when they snap over and when I deflated the tire each time there was that 1/4 inch gap all the way around the rim on both sides. I even inflated to 80 psi (Rim can withstand 200 psi and tire 94 psi per manuf) and that didn't move it. After a difficult disassembly I measured the inside diameter of the tire and it is around 4 7/8 inches. Grove wheels are made to aircraft specs and outside diameter of the rim measures 5.020 inches. Speaking to the engineer at Grove, he agrees this is to much interfearence, but states several RV's and many Lancair's are flying with this wheel and tire configuration. My questions are:

1) Could anyone who hasn't mounted there nose tire on the rim tell me what the ID is to see if maybe I just got a defective tire.

2) What is the OD of the rim, not the flange, of a Matco nose wheel Vans provides. Maybe a true 5" aircraft wheel cannot accept a 11x4.00-5 tire and the Matco's have a smaller diameter for this reason.

3) If someone reading this is actually using this combination could you send me a message that I could contact you and ask you some questions.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Did you try and lube the tire/rim with dish soap and water?

Had the same type of issue with my ATV tires ... lubed it up with dish soap and water, the tire poped right on sometimes ... other times you have to bang the inflated tire on the floor to get the tire to seat.

True aircraft wheels

Brockster said:

.....
1) Could anyone who hasn't mounted there nose tire on the rim tell me what the ID is to see if maybe I just got a defective tire.

2) What is the OD of the rim, not the flange, of a Matco nose wheel Vans provides. Maybe a true 5" aircraft wheel cannot accept a 11x4.00-5 tire and the Matco's have a smaller diameter for this reason.

3) If someone reading this is actually using this combination could you send me a message that I could contact you and ask you some questions.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Click to expand...

Hi...
I was out in the hangar, so I just measured the nose wheel from my old -6A kit. Van supplied Cleveland rims at that time, and they do fit the Lamb tire. So a true aircraft wheel does work.

The exact diameter is a bit hard to get due to the radius, but before the radius, I measured 5.010 inches.... which seems in line with your measurements above.

Hope this helps....

gil A - I knew that 6 inch electronic caliper on sale at Harbor freight would come in handy...

Thanks Guys,
I thought about using soap and water and will probably try that route once I know what the spec is for the ID of a lamb tire. Desser tire in California is the importer of Aero Classic tires and I just want to make sure the ID of the tire I have is correct. If the ID of the tire I have is correct and it goes on with soap and water I will be a little concerned the day I need to replace the tire if I will be able to get it off the rim. The reason I stated true aircraft wheel is that Robbie from Grove Aircraft said that Matco Mfg does not manufacture per the aviation standards set in place. The specs on there wheels may be different from what an identical Grove and Cleveland wheel would be. Thats why Gil's cleveland wheel measures the same as mine. Yes the radius makes it tough to measure) Since I didn't have a Matco wheel to measure I don't know if the OD of the rim on that wheel is made undersize. Matco does have a note on there website that if your mounting a lamb tire use part # NW501.25 ( what vans uses) and if your mounting a 5.00x5 then use NW511.25. Both matco wheels are slightly narrower at 3.888 inches where the Grove and Clevelands are 4.100 wide. This is why I still would like to know the diameter of the matco wheel. If you don't have a big enough caliper to measure then maybe you could measure the circumfrence and then I could do the math to get the diameter. I purchased Grove wheels and brakes and master cylinders for the mains also and they are really nice. My nose wheel has the same design as a production aircraft with the felt seals and full axle through the wheel. Now I just need to get that tire on!

Axle for Grove wheel

What are you using for the axle setup? I have a 7A and am curious how you adapted this to Van's fork.

I bought the same set up for my 7A from Grove. I felt the tire went on real nice although it didn't pop, I'm still not concerned. I'm at this point going to run with it, I don't see any gaps between the tire and rim. I too bought all the brakes for the mains as well and will be buying my tires and tubes from desser.

watch the tire pressure

Keep the tire pressure low until it pops onto or seats on the rim. Use soap and water, bounce the tire, tap it with a rubber hammer..... If the tire is sticking and there is too much pressure, it could jump the rim instead of popping into place. 10 psi carries a lot of energy and force. I have more experience with car tires and the smaller tires and wheels may be less vulnerable, but you just don't want one to let go. Perhaps someone with experience with this size of tire and wheel can chime in.

The axle setup was made by Grove aircraft and essentially are two adapters similiar to what Vans provides but has a steel tube that inserts and goes between each adapter providing what I think is a stiffer axle. Production aircraft have a very similiar design in that an aluminium tube extends across the whole fork and spacer rings are slipped on each side. The thru bolt alone in my opinion even as big as it is will flex under pressure putting uneven stress on the bearing. Also the seal for the bearing consists of a felt pad and two large thin washers. When I tighten the wheel in the fork there is no resistance like the matco wheel has due to there seal design. I will try to provide a picture.

I just got off the phone with Matco and the only difference between the two wheels I mentioned above is the one for the lamb tire has the hole for the valve stem in a slightly different spot. The OD is 5 inches also. So I either have a tire that is on the small side or I need more lubricant so it slides on completely.

All my wheels are magnesium wheels. I also installed my tire with about 10lbs of pressure and put it away for two weeks now. I don't know if it poped into place when I wasn't around or not but the seal on the tire looks pretty good. I won't be putting more air to it until I have the bolt through the middle tighten fully.

Bearing pre-load?

What torque setting for bearing pre-load is Grove suggesting? I am curious also if the Grove wheels have ball bearings or tapered roller bearings (like the Matco). The tapered roller bearings require a torque specification for correct life and usage (7-12 ft-lbs as recommended by Van's). I think a ball bearing can be left loose. The old car specifications had you back off a "flat" before inserting the cotter pin, but those were all ball bearings.

90 inch pounds and tapered bearings.

TUBE TIRES......

allbee said:

All my wheels are magnesium wheels. I also installed my tire with about 10lbs of pressure and put it away for two weeks now. I don't know if it poped into place when I wasn't around or not but the seal on the tire looks pretty good. I won't be putting more air to it until I have the bolt through the middle tighten fully.

Click to expand...

All you will find is taper bearings........ and they can be purchased locally much cheaper that what Van sells them for.

There is no lip... like on a tubless auto rim to POP over. With the tube, just inflate, and the tire will fit if it is the proper one. The three bolts that hold the rim togather when properly torqued (the spec should be on the rim decal) is all that is needed to totally inflate the tire.

The bolt through the middle only holds the wheel on the aircraft and sets the "0" play in the bearing. Tighten till there is no side play felt, yet allowing the wheel to rotate freely. Except for the grease drag...

NO TORQUE WRENCH IS INVOLVED WITH THE AXLE NUT

Hope pictures work

Dish soap and water seemed to do the trick. Hope the pictures below can be seen. One is of axle assembly by Grove Aircraft and the other is the Grove nosewheel. If not I will keep trying.





They turned out a little big.

Paul,
Where did you get the machined and tubular spacers? I looked on their website and didn't see any mention of them. Like you, I want the bearings to rotate - not the spacers....
Ralph

Grove Aircraft custom made them. Not a cataloge item. They had done some 7A's but never a 9A, and not there is any difference between them. I sent them my fork and axle bolt and for a very small charge they custom made an axle assembly to fit there nose wheel on Vans fork assembly. Call them on the phone and tell the girl what you need and she will get you to the right person. I am very pleased. This setup allows the spacer to contact the inner race of the bearing so it won't turn. The seal contacts the outside diameter of the spacer, not the face like the matco.

Here is some photos of a very similar setup of a 10.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=17878

This was also a change out from the Matco wheel to a Grove.