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Cleaning the belly

Bryan Wood

Bryan Wood

Well Known Member
Hello all,

I Learned a little trick from my father in law and thought I'd pass it on. His airplane is always clean, full of gas, and everything works or he doesn't rest until it meets all of the above conditions.

Anyway, the belly of his airplane is usually cleaner than the top of every other airplane on the field :D so I asked how he keeps it this way. His cleaner of choice is Scrubbin Bubbles bathroom cleaner. I tried it a couple of days ago on the belly of my 9A and couldn't believe it. You spray this stuff on and it foams up. As quickly as you can run a rag over it the belly is clean and there is next to no effort. To do the belly from the tie down hook on the tail to the firewall took literally less than 2 minutes and the plane looks like it just came from the painter again. There's probably other products that would work well also, but there is no reason to look further. This stuff is being marketed incorrectly, it was obviously built for airplanes.

If anybody out there has little bits of information that can make our lives easier as much as this please share. I'm embarrassed to say, but I've been going to the wash rack and using dishwashing detergent and a brush on a telescoping pole that hooks onto the hose to clean the belly which just made a mess and took a lot of time. What else have I been doing the hard way?Please share.

Blue Skies,
Bryan Wood
 
i'm gonna look for that asap. my cessna 140 has a light film of oil on the belly.

other than that-- she's ready for the wash and shine division.

thanks for info.

mark

btw-- i really like foam cleaners but one Selig product called Bloch buster is too harsh. fades paint-- good in engine compartment though.
 
Happy bubbles, tiny bubbles

I am not trying to throw cold water on the idea, but when using chemicals on metal aircraft I tend to be real conservative.

Scrubbing Bubbles? What is in it? Their web site says, good for Ceramic tile, tube, fiberglass, chrome & stainless steel, Porcelain, plus it states "Caution: Spot test all other surfaces. Scrubbing Bubbles? is not recommended for use on acrylic, brass, or marble." (The brass warning concerns me)

What are the active ingredients in scrubbing bubbles. It would be nice to know what it is. There are some serious pre-cautions and sounds caustic:
http://www.scrubbingbubbles.com/reg_aerosol_pre.asp
It states it is a hazard to humans and animals, is poisonous and will damage skin and clothes?

Most alkaline cleaners range from pH 10 to 14. Some have Polyphosphates, primarily sodium tripolyphosphate (STPP).

Simple green was universally thought to be OK on aluminum and than the military, which used it extensively found a direct correlation to aircraft corrosion and simple green. Mil test done with (original) Simple Green showed increased alum corrosion rates. I used diluted Simple Green on the belly and it worked great before I knew but no longer do. I now use mild dishwashing soap for the belly and mild liquid custom car wash soap for the rest of the plane.

However they now they have "Extreme Simple Green", which is made for aircraft:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/09-00809.php
(Meets Boeing D6-17487 Revision P (April 2003): Exterior & General Cleaners.)


A good test would be spray Scrub B's on aluminum, let it sit for 7 days. Let it sit out for a few more days and repeat process. What would does it do to paint? What does it do to Plexiglas (acrylic)? If it cleans real good it could promote oxidization of bare aluminum if it is not protected right after cleaning.

A quick google showed wash de-grease agents made for aircraft:
http://www.metal-wear.com/aircraft_wash_and_wax.htm
http://www.sharpdetails.com/products.htm
http://www.metalwax.com/TOP WAX.htm
http://www.nugentec.com/AeroKlean.htm
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=984&refcode=05INFROO

I am not recommending any of these products, since I have not used them, but I would be a little shy about Scrubbing bubbles.
Cheers George
 
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Some of the T-28 guys use Scrubbing Bubbles to get the exhaust stains off the sides of their airplanes. One of them had an Oshkosh award winning airplane worth $300,000 easily (this was years ago.) He swore by it.
 
T-28 soot

arffguy said:
Some of the T-28 guys use Scrubbing Bubbles to get the exhaust stains off the sides of their airplanes. One of them had an Oshkosh award winning airplane worth $300,000 easily (this was years ago.) He swore by it.
Click to expand...
Is that stainless steel where the exhaust stacks come out? I have no doubt it works GREAT. I am just thinking of the long term affect when used on aluminum. Cheers George
 
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Household cleaners could be corrosive

I used to use Simple Green, then thought better of it when an autobody guy told me that he loves SG, because it's the best way to remove a damaged clear coat or badly oxidized paint on a car as a precursor to buffing a weathered finish: full strength Simple Green, leave it on for 10 minutes then wash off. ...

Since then, I don't trust any household chemicals, especially ones that may contain phosphates or oxidizers (corrosion is oxydation out of control). My best cleaners for the belly are (listed from weakest to strongest and none are corrosive to alum)

-MIneral Spirits
-Kerosene
-Tolulol
-Lacquer Thinner (has not effected the finish on Imron)

I put them in a spray bottle, don goggles, hat and coveralls and I'm done in a few minutes. I also use Rags in a Box from Home Depot, because they last longer than paper towel and they have a slight abrasive quality. I have never had much luck with plain dishwashing soap and a soft brush.

My plane does not leave exhause stains, so I have no experience in getting that off.
 
Scrubbing Bubbles IS Corrosive

I have been using scrubbing bubbles for years and it works great, especially on fuel stains.

Is it corrosive? YES.

It has a form chlorine in it (clorophenol).
Rinse the surface thoroughly when done and I would not recommend spraying it on a skin lap joints and letting it sit on the surface. If you do let it seep into skin joints after years of misuse you will find corrosion. That would be a hard lesson learned to have a beautiful clean RV that has corroded skin joints.
There is another cleaner, "SUD'N KLEEN" it also has chlorophenol in it but it sprays out of the top of the can, no plastic. By the time the can is empty the top of the can is corroded.

I work for an aerospace company and all cleaners of this type have been removed from assembly areas.

My 2 cents
 
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belly cleaner

WD-40 is my choice. Doesn't hurt anything, doesn't take much, doesn't make a mess, takes very little effort. I don't know how you can beat that.
doyle reed RV-7A
Casper two
 
Most WD-40 has silicone

casper said:
WD-40 is my choice. Doesn't hurt anything, doesn't take much, doesn't make a mess, takes very little effort.
Click to expand...
If you have not painted yet, be careful with WD-40. Many of their formulations have silicone, which the paint prep guys really hate.
 
Wd 40

WD40 is my choice, doesn't take much, doesn't make a mess, doesn't hurt anything, take little effort. Hard to beat that.
doyle reed RV7A
Casper two
 
Silicon is evil

To repeat Mickey's comment, silicon is hell if you get it on your plane. So if your plane is unpainted and you plan on painting it, silicon is very hard to remove. Only a small amount of contamination will ruin the paint. If you tell your painter you put silicon on your plane they may not want to paint it or will give no guarantee the paint will stick. Just a little contamination will do it.

WD40? I don't know if it has silicon or not. Just a thought. Also some wax's have silicon base. I don?t think silicon would hurt most existing paint jobs, but future paint jobs would be affected.

Cheers George
 
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The folks at WD40 swear that it does not contain silcone. Incidently, the issue with silicone contamination is not that the paint won't stick. It's that no matter how much you clean before painting, there's always a few stray silicone molecules left behind. When the paint hits one, it forms a little "fish-eye". If you've ever had this happen when painting, now you know what it was. There are paint additives to help prevent this, but they don't really work that great. If you get a fish-eye or two, the fix is to let the paint flash and then spray the fish-eye lightly from a couple of different angles. This will improve things, but you're probably stuck with it a little. The bottom line is to avoid putting silicone on anything that will ever get painted, whether it's bare metal or a painted surface. This includes certain Armor-All type products.

Steve Zicree
RV4 Panel
 
arffguy said:
Some of the T-28 guys use Scrubbing Bubbles to get the exhaust stains off the sides of their airplanes.
Click to expand...

Tried the bubbles this week, works great. I cleaned the belly of a very dirty -4 in less than 30 minutes without breaking much of a sweat, even the area's that were really dirty got clean. Highly recommended!

Chuck
 
Spelling

George:
Be careful of your spelling. :D You're going to catch all kinds of crap over it if the guy that read one of the other threads, and I don't even remember which one it was, sees how you spelled SILICONE. :p This guy really got bent out of shape when someone mis spellit it. oops

Marshall
RV10
wings-fuel tanks :eek:
 
Implants for your RV

RV10Man said:
George:
Be careful of your spelling. :D You're going to catch all kinds of crap over it if the guy that read one of the other threads, and I don't even remember which one it was, sees how you spelled SILICONE. :p This guy really got bent out of shape when someone mis spellit it. oops

Marshall
RV10
wings-fuel tanks :eek:
Click to expand...
Thanks Marshall I did not know, but

Silicone = is a General Electric Trademark meterial name , Silicon-oxygen polymers, synthetic gel, outer coating on breast implants

Silicon = Si atomic symbol, silicon is the 14th element in periodic table

"Now classsss, this will be on the test"

Can't speel Goerge :eek:
 
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dan said:
FWIW, I use kerosene to clean the belly of my bare aluminum RV-7. Cheap, readily available, works great.

)_( Dan
Click to expand...
I've found WD-40 in the pump spray bottle to work pretty well which I'm told has a fair amount of kerosene in it. It's also cheap when you buy it by the gallon and use the pump sprayer.

Randy Lervold
 
Cleaning the belly.

I do not have to clean my belly only the wheelpant, due to the fact that I have my oil breather tube run down the inside of the front gearleg fairing. I only clean the top of my wheelpant. My belly is squeaky clean.
I tested this with a airspeed indicator in all flight attitudes to make sure that it was not a area of positive or negative pressure but a area of low or no pressure. 75 hrs. later no problems.
 
air-oil separators?

Vince's idea of running the oil breather tube down the nosewheel fairing seems like a good idea. Has anyone had success using those air-oil separators that are advertised? I forget the manufacturer or where I saw them. Do they help keep the belly clean?
 
oil separator

I have one of the air/oil separators on my airplane. Forget which one, it is not the MX20 or whatever the expensive one is and it does help not completely eliminate though. I had a lot of people challenge me on the idea of running the breather down the gear leg fairing. They told me it would pressurize the crankcase and cause the front seal to leak and eventually blow. I experimented by running the tube down there and hooking it up to a airspeed indicator and also putting the line in a cup of water to see if it would suck it out. You could get either to happen depending on the angle you cut the tube on the bottom and if you had it sticking slightly out the leg fairing. I just experimented until it would not suck the water out of the jar nor show any airspeed on the indicator. Interesting observation though, when I had the breather exiting by the exhausts like commonly done it was a bit difficult to find a area that it did not actually suck the water out of the jar.
 
N819VK said:
... I had a lot of people challenge me on the idea of running the breather down the gear leg fairing. They told me it would pressurize the crankcase and cause the front seal to leak and eventually blow....
Click to expand...
I suspect that if the front seal will "blow" with nothing but pitot tube pressures on it, it is destined for failure in any case.

-mike
 
Got a clean belly now!

Good discussion. Thanks for the tips - I decided to try WD40 and it worked great. Was shy about using the "Scrubbing Bubbles" after what several guys said about potential harm to the skins....

Got this off the WD40 website (stands for Water Displacement - 40th attempt)

What does WD-40 contain?
While the ingredients in WD-40 are secret, we can tell you what WD-40 does NOT contain. WD-40 does not contain silicone, kerosene, water, wax, graphite, chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs), or any known cancer-causing agents.

I've heard that people use WD-40 as a cleaner/remover. What can it be used on?
WD-40 removes sap, tar, adhesives, labels and tape from surfaces without damaging existing paint. It's an effective cleaner for tools, equipment, and vehicles. Use it to remove splattered bugs from the front of cars. WD-40 will even help remove gum from carpet. Just spray, wait, and wipe with a clean cloth


Bobby
 
Clean belly

There was a show on the history channel about the history of lubricants. WD-40 was discussed and was interesting how they came up with it. WD-40 literally stands for Water Displacement, 40th attempt.

In 1953, a fledgling company called Rocket Chemical Company and its staff of three set out to create a line of rust-prevention solvents and degreasers for use in the aerospace industry, in a small lab in San Diego, California.

It took them 40 attempts to get the water displacing formula worked out. But they must have been really good, because the original secret formula for WD-40?which stands for Water Displacement perfected on the 40th try?is still in use today.

Convair, an aerospace contractor, first used WD-40 to protect the outer skin of the Atlas Missile from rust and corrosion. The product actually worked so well that several employees snuck some WD-40 cans out of the plant to use at home.

As far as NO oil on the belly, oil comes from all locations. Even if the breather tube is not a factor there is still a little oil coming out of the cowl air exit and exhaust pipe'(s). The little leaks (and you will get them) drain into the lower cowl and blow back. So the old joke is if you don't have oil on your belly you don't have any oil in the crank case. :D G
 
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Scrubbing Bubbles is corrosive

I tried some on some scrap 2024 Alclad and let it sit overnight. No question - it is corrosive. I agree with the remarks above - don't let it get into a lap joint.
Mineral spirits, then rinse with mild solution of dishwashing liquid such as Dawn or Palmolive has been recommended by my A&P/AI.
 
Air Oil Separator

I recently put the certified one on my C-150. I used to get a lot of "snot" from the breather tube. Now I get none. My hours between adding a quart have increased. The oil is just as clean or cleaner. I have seen some criticism of the theory, if any, behind this device. I can't judge that, but the thing works. The imitations may or may not work as well.
 
Simple Green makes a great product specically for AL. I was giving it away at EAA this year.

Roberta
 
My 4 does not leak any noticeable amount of oil, and the breather goes through a air oil separator on the firewall. I get NO oil or grime at all on the belly. I do get stains on the belly from gas overflowing out of the fuel tank vents. I use autogas in it so the stains are a orangish yellow and they are a pain to clean off.
 
What do you use to clean bare aluminum

Interesting and informative thread! Like most of you have probably done, I have leaned against the skin of my project while sweaty from working on it. It is hard not to do so. I would like to clean the bare aluminum and protect it. Having read this thread, I am glad that I did not use a silicone product!!!

Any recommendations (other than don't sweat on your airplane)?
 
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Good point but

robertahegy said:
Simple Green makes a great product specically for AL. I was giving it away at EAA this year.

Roberta
Click to expand...
Get the special stuff for aluminum. The standard Simple Green stuff is corrosive to metal. The airforce banned it for that reason. I used it on my RV-4 and it works great. G
 
polishing compound

GyroRon said:
My 4 does not leak any noticeable amount of oil, and the breather goes through a air oil separator on the firewall. I get NO oil or grime at all on the belly. I do get stains on the belly from gas overflowing out of the fuel tank vents. I use autogas in it so the stains are a orangish yellow and they are a pain to clean off.
Click to expand...
I burn some mogas in my 150. It stains the top of the wings a little. I use Clean Cut polishing compound to clean the orangish color off the wings. It's no work at all, even doing it off a ladder. :)

Marshall Alexander
RV10
wings/tanks
 
I have been using in the past a watered down mix of purple power cleaner and water in a spray bottle. Spray a little on and then wash with car wash soap on a wool mit and then rinse. It takes the stain right off, but I wonder if it is hurting anything..... Maybe I need to try something not as harsh, like Formula 409 or Fantastic? This polish you mention, is it a creme or spray or?????
 
A friend of mine tried Scrubbing Bubbles and the while the belly was clean the rag was also the color of his aircraft. Green!

I have tried lots of stuff and the best I have found is Bug and Tar Remover. Spray it on and it cuts right thru the grease and grime. The last bottles I bought were Turtle Wax brand in a pump bottle. Any brand seems to work and they don't harm the paint.

Z
 
Be careful

IF you read this thread you may be more careful about what you use. Polish compound will remove stains, but you are removing paint. I would not use it on a routine basis.

As far as formula 409, purple powders and other industrial cleaners, they can and do have chemicals that can attack paint, aluminum and Plexiglas. Sure it cuts the grease but it has a pH that is very alkaline that eats metal.

The simple green for aluminum is good. WD40? Probably works and is safe. You can than go after and clean with mild soap and water. However stay away from the household cleaners. You want something to cut the oil on the belly with out attacking the finish or causing corrosion. Stick with the prop stuff for aluminum, simple green or may be WD40 (which I have never used). Cost may be the draw back of WD40.

George
 
plain ole 70% rubbing alcohol work pretty good and won't harm the paint.

put it in a spray bottle

cary
 
Pretreatment is the best method.

We use PAM or WD-40 prior to leaving. It coats the surface, prevents staining and is easy to remove. Works for bugs, fuel, exhaust, etc.

BTW Anyone using Simple Green on aluminum is CRAZY! Read the above posts. It will eat aluminum!
 
markscogg said:
Windex works well for this. Is it going to cause problem also?
Mark
RV-6
Click to expand...
I've always used a mix of alchohol and windex for stuff like this and it works really well. I'm with you wondering if windex is OK on aluminum. Seems pretty innocuous...maybe someone here has specifics?
 
Ammonia

jcoloccia said:
I've always used a mix of alcohol and Windex for stuff like this and it works really well. I'm with you wondering if Windex is OK on aluminum. Seems pretty innocuous...maybe someone here has specifics?
Click to expand...
Windex has Ammonia, which will craze plexi. As far as aluminum, I think you will find ammonia + moisture = corrosion. Take a sample piece of aluminum scrap and soak and spray it on. Leave and check later with a control piece not in the cocktail. G
 
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Lots of chat lately on smoke systems (different kinds and thoughts -- which are all great). I am not flying yet, but was wondering the best way to clean the belly in general and after turning on the smoke. Someone mentioned Simple Green, but I hear that is highly corrosive and another aviator buddy warned not to use it? Will mineral spirits cut through smoke or or diesel on the belly? Just curious what guys are doing -- a creeper is a must I hear to make it easy? Thanks. Dave
 
db8 said:
Lots of chat lately on smoke systems (different kinds and thoughts -- which are all great). I am not flying yet, but was wondering the best way to clean the belly in general and after turning on the smoke. Someone mentioned Simple Green, but I hear that is highly corrosive and another aviator buddy warned not to use it? Will mineral spirits cut through smoke or or diesel on the belly? Just curious what guys are doing -- a creeper is a must I hear to make it easy? Thanks. Dave
Click to expand...

I use wd-40, but please do a search in the forums. This topic has come up many times.
 
There is product on every grocery shelf in the household cleaning section called something or other "Bubbles". It works great, I cleaned 4 years of Subby gunk off the fuselage bottom in one afternoon.

Since then with the Vetterman 4 pipe exhaust as installed, the bottom has remained clean. But I don't do the smoke stuff. :)
 
The "Smoke Oil" on the belly makes the exhaust stains come off very easy. In other words, the belly is much easier to clean with a smoke system than it is without one.

Cleaning the belly for me is a three step process. I use "Smoke Oil", Diesel, or Jet A (what ever I happen to have in my shop at that time) to wipe off the belly wearing rubber gloves.

Step 2 is to wipe off the belly with "Simple Green". (The one you buy at Lowes and not the aircraft stuff.) I have been using Simple Green on the belly for 13-years with no issue YET.

Step 3 is to wipe off the belly using water and paper towels. (Step one and two can be an old cloth rag or paper towels plus rubber gloves.)
 
I have my cleaning kit under the LH wing which includes a pump up garden sprayer full of water (for the bugs), a spray bottle of Carbon-X (for the belly), a can of Plexall for the window, seperate towels for the bugs, windows, and belly, all sitting on a creeper. Takes 5 mintes to clean after a flight to be sparkling clean for the next flight.
 
GOJO

The guy that painted my RV told me to use GOJO ORIGINAL FORMULA hand cleaning cr?me. Works great~~
Squeak
 
For awhile, Home Depot carried the aviation version of Simple Green. But But apparently, no longer. These day's, I just buy it by the gallon from Aircraft Spruce. It's concentrated.....to add water. Will last a long time, and is non corrosive.
We spray on, wipe with a damp rag, and wipe dry.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Oil clean up

LPS Precision Clean is what I've been using for years. It does a great job on greasy bellies. I buy it in the gallon jugs and use diluted in a trigger sprayer. Its biodegradable and water-based.
Meets or exceeds these specs.
•McDonnell Douglas CSD#1
•Boeing D6-17487Rev.H
•AMS 1526A
•AMS 1550B
•ASTM F-519, Type 1C
•NSF Registered Category Code C1 Registration # 059854

Check it out on the LPS site http://www.lpslabs.com/product_pg/degreasers_pg/PrecisionClean.html
 
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"Simple Green". (The one you buy at Lowes and not the aircraft stuff.) I have been using Simple Green on the belly for 13-years with no issue YET.
Click to expand...

There are two Simple Green's. Simple Green and Simple Green Extreme.

Originally Simple Green was called "the airplane stuff". It soon became apparent that this "airplane stuff" greatly accelerated corrosion of aluminum. It was about the only thing that would adequately and easily clean the sides of a T 28. A T 28 owner however put several pieces of alclad in a jar with the stuff and after just 2 weeks the corrosive effect on the aluminum was amazing. Similar tests with Scrubbing Bubbles yielded the same result. Remember this stuff when applied to a plane gets in the seams and between layers and you can never really rinse it all out.

Simple Green Extreme was formulated for aluminum products and is approved by Boeing for use on their aircraft. A repeat of the soak test revealed no deleterious effects.

A 30% solution in water will clean just about anything that might stick to an airplane.

On the road in my T 28 I would carry (2) 1 quart spray bottles mixed at 30% and 2 rolls of paper towels. This would be sufficient to clean the plane without a hose and make it look pretty enough for a static display.

What they sell at Lowes (I forget the trade name) is Simple Green Extreme at a price a lot cheaper than you can buy it under the simple green logo.

You can also purchase it in 5 gallon buckets or 55 gallon drums at Aircraft Spruce. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cs/simplegreen.html
 
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