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Mark Chamberlain down again

LifeofReiley

LifeofReiley

Well Known Member
Just off the AZ RV List...

<Snip>

Mark Chamberlain is down again with another emergency landing. He told me he was cruising between Glendale and Deer Valley when his engine quit making power. Possible fuel flow issue, not Pmags this time.

He is fine but as we were talking the news heli's were overhead. Just wanted to get the word out to avoid speculation when it shows up on the news.

<Snip>

Thanks for the report from Darwin N. Barrie, Chandler AZ

GLAD YOU"RE OKAY MARK!!
 
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Any info on the damage to the plane?

The article mentions clipping a crane, any report of damage to aircraft?

Mark,

If you are reading this post let me know if you need any I can do to help. I can always travel up to Phoenix to pound a few rivets for a friend.

Glad to hear you are OK.
 
Glad he's down safe, in the video everything looks pretty intact. There is a crane in the area but no obvious contact in the shots from the helicopter.
 
Good Job

Really glad you made it down safe Mark!

Give us an update when you can.

All the best

Frank
 
Plane is Okay

Mark's plane is back at the airport and okay. He just released a post on the AZ list. He can tell the story here if he elects to.

Again, Good job Mark!!! :)
 
Yep, me again <sigh>

Just had to have something to talk about at Osh guys :)

If you watched the news report on AZCentral; they were wrong on the way I landed, I came in from the south, not the North.

Here's the rundown.

Plane is out and back at DVT, thanks for the offers of help folks, you guys are the best.

Quick rundown on this one: took off from DVT this morning to get gas, landed at Glendale, filled up and took off back towards DVT. About 2 or 3 minutes after takeoff (just leaving Glendale airspace) the engine just quit without warning. Tried to restart, couldn't, turned back to Glendale and informed them of engine out situation. As I set up for best glide it became obvious that I wasn't going to make the runway so I saw the construction site up the side of the New River canal (just west of the 101 / 99th Ave and Northern), and that's where I ended up. I did NOT clip the wing on the crane as the news has been saying, in fact I flew it back to DVT just a while ago, not a scratch (although I still can't believe I didn't break anything, it's a pretty tight area, guess I'm very lucky).

What went wrong? I have a rubber mat stuck to the bottom of the air box that was there to help seal the bottom of the air filter to the air box. It had come unglued and managed to get sucked in to the bottom of the throttle body. I'm still not sure how in managed to work itself out from being clamped between the air filter and the bottom of the box and also the high-strength adhesive I used to stick in on there (it's been there for over 200 hours). Anyway, it's riveted to the air box now as well as bonded (probably should have been riveted in the first place, but we live and learn).

This "off-airport" stuff is getting old, I don't mind if I don't have to do it again.

See you at Osh!

Mark - RV-7 - 210 hrs + 2 off-airport landings, and that's enough.
 
Thanks for the update, Mark. VERY grateful all worked out OK.

Grace under pressure!

b,
d
 
DeltaRomeo said:
Thanks for the update, Mark. VERY grateful all worked out OK.

Grace under pressure!

b,
d
Click to expand...

"Grace", oh!, that's what they call that brown stuff?

:)

Thanks Doug.

Mark
 
Great job Mark! I hope to meet you at Oshkosh next week! Be nice to shake the hand of a good stick such as yourself!

Glad all is well! :)
 
Top Notch Pilot

Hi Mark,

I was serious with my email to you earlier. Dead Stick RV landing in a short wing RV airplane is not easy. You did one **** of a job!

Keep your head up and be proud as you really seem to know your plane and control stick! I hope the brown color in the seat goes away soon. :D

Your emergency technique and procedures to prepare for such an emergency would be a good info thread for the rest of us. We all need to learn from this.
 
Mark - I'm very glad to learn that you are OK. Great job getting safely on the ground. Congratulations. Fly that sucker all the way to the ground.

Thanks for the update on the cause of the power loss. Hopefully some other folks can learn from your event, and perhaps upgrade their airbox seal solution to prevent something like this from happening to them.

I wonder if somehow avgas (fumes?) affected the glue? Or maybe it was the heat. The under cowling environment is pretty harsh, and we should be very cautious about relying on adhesives in areas where an adhesive failure could cause grief.
 
Fumes

Kevin Horton said:
Mark - I'm very glad to learn that you are OK. Great job getting safely on the ground. Congratulations. Fly that sucker all the way to the ground.

Thanks for the update on the cause of the power loss. Hopefully some other folks can learn from your event, and perhaps upgrade their airbox seal solution to prevent something like this from happening to them.

I wonder if somehow avgas (fumes?) affected the glue? Or maybe it was the heat. The under cowling environment is pretty harsh, and we should be very cautious about relying on adhesives in areas where an adhesive failure could cause grief.
Click to expand...

Hi Kevin,

Could have been fumes, maybe just heat. The fact is it should have been riveted on, just didn't think there was any chance of it being sucked in as it was clamped between the air box and filter. The reason it was there was because the filter didn't seal to the bottom of the box very well.

It's riveted now, real well :)

Mark - RV-7 210 hours - Off to Osh in the morning, in the air all the way hopefully.
 
Great stick and rudder work. Grateful that you and the plane came through unscathed.
 
Glad to hear nothing is broke, Mark (including you). I've been taxiing out behind you early in the morning these last few weeks; you've been very busy flying. Thought your Oshkosh trip was ruined when I heard about your misfortune this morning; good to hear you're still able to go.

I think you've filled your quota for forced landings...
 
2nd time this year

I was witness to this exact same failure mode this year! A very nice 6 was lost. The pilot in this case picked the only survivable option, saved himself plane was totaled.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070228X00239&key=1

The top plate of the FAB can in time crack/stretch/bend a little making the filter loose. Do not put in a rubber spacer. Call Vans and order all the parts minus the fiberglass bowl and rebuild the FAB with the metal top plate lower as needed to firmly hold the filter. While you are at it install the new alt air source. Push pull cable vs the old spring set up.

The rubber spacer seems like a great quick fix but it is now 2 RV's down in a short period of time due to this idea. Adding rivets, and other parts, depending how it is done could create yet another failure mode. Rivet vibrating loose from the rubber/fiberglass and going through the engine. There is a lot of vibration on the FAB hence it is a wear item that will need periodic inspection and or rebuild.
 
asav8tor said:
I was witness to this exact same failure mode this year! A very nice 6 was lost. The pilot in this case picked the only survivable option, saved himself plane was totaled.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20070228X00239&key=1

The top plate of the FAB can in time crack/stretch/bend a little making the filter loose. Do not put in a rubber spacer. Call Vans and order all the parts minus the fiberglass bowl and rebuild the FAB with the metal top plate lower as needed to firmly hold the filter. While you are at it install the new alt air source. Push pull cable vs the old spring set up.

The rubber spacer seems like a great quick fix but it is now 2 RV's down in a short period of time due to this idea. Adding rivets, and other parts, depending how it is done could create yet another failure mode. Rivet vibrating loose from the rubber/fiberglass and going through the engine. There is a lot of vibration on the FAB hence it is a wear item that will need periodic inspection and or rebuild.
Click to expand...

I totally agree.
The only process I would consider acceptable (safe) for shimming the filter would be additional glass layups in the bottom of the bowl. I would be particularly concerned if any of the rivets used are inside of the filter profile.
 
MacNab said:
le to go.

I think you've filled your quota for forced landings...
Click to expand...


Actually, he needs 8 more for the glider rating. Additional good news is that he won't have to take another written...
 
Picture?

A picture is worth a thousand words!
Is there a photo(s) somewhere that shows where the neoprene was put and also the lever actuated alternate air.
 
Alternate air

Alternate air in this case would not have mattered since it was sucked into the intake of the throttle body. The AA would only help if your main source of air (the snoot) was blocked.

Personally I don't think the pad is necessary. My air cleaner does not a 100% perfect fit but is close. But I don't have anything that can be sucked into the intake.

I'm just very thankful this happened where it did. The first two hours of the flight toward Osh is over very trecherous mountains.
 
Hey, Scott.

rvbuilder2002 said:
I totally agree.
The only process I would consider acceptable (safe) for shimming the filter would be additional glass layups in the bottom of the bowl. I would be particularly concerned if any of the rivets used are inside of the filter profile.
Click to expand...

In my plane I had a very small gap, so I added RTV under the filter. Should I be removing this and going with a buildup instead?

Kent
 
Yeah. Dump the RTV, fuel and oil will unstick that and you'll end up ingesting it into your engine. EIther fiberglass buildup, proseal (not really good for this application since at some point you have to remove the filter) or rebuilding the airbox. I'll just take this time to reinterate that I'm not a big fan of Van's FAB design.... sucky it is.
 
kentb said:
In my plane I had a very small gap, so I added RTV under the filter. Should I be removing this and going with a buildup instead?

Kent
Click to expand...

Gasoline destroys RTV in short order. Gasoline fumes take longer, but the result will be the same. Feeding your engine bits of RTV probably won't hurt, unless of course one jams the throttle body. ;)


Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
Nothing there!!!!

The airbox construction involved riveting the little brackets in place to hold the filter. This is always inspected. When I built mine I used JB Weld when I riveted to lock the rivets in place.

Rivets in glass can move and will slow enlarge the hole in the glass. If you lose a rivet into the intake, GAME OVER!!!

I would much rather have a little gap than work about RTV or anything else getting sucked up into the throttle body.

If I decide to redo my box I'd buy a new bottom piece and build it up for a perfect fit. I would not even attempt to clean a box that has been on for a while. The oil penetration would make me nervous about adding anything for build up in fear it would not adhere properly.
 
ad hoc mods

This thread is absolute proof that the engine/fuel supply system is not an area that lends itself to "intuitive tinkering" and untested products/methods. There's not much redundancy there....one strike and you're probably out.

Builders can quite often make adhoc design mods on the hull and get away with it. But similar attitudes FWF frequently spell disaster.

Cheers Bob
 
This is all very timely info for me as I just ordered my FAB today. Having never seen it first hand I'm now a bit concerned about what I'll be getting. Any ideas on a better mousetrap would be greatly appreciated.
 
A Better Way?

I've also had problems getting a good seal on the air filter in my FAB and I also used RTV on the top of the air filter gasket to try to seal it up better. I'll be removing the RTV this weekend before I fly the plane again.

I spent a good deal of time thinking about this problem and the failure modes for all the possible fixes, and I came up with a fix that I'm thinking of applying to this problem.

First I would cut a gasket out of neoprene that would fit under the bottom seal of the filter and not protrude into the area inside the filter. The outside of the gasket would extend approx. 3/4" outside the filter element.

After some clean-up with solvent and a wire wheel I would epoxy the neoprene gasket to the bottom of the FAB and rivet the gasket to the bottom of the FAB through the gasket material outside the filter element and then reinforce the rivets on both top and bottom with epoxy to prevent them from loosening.

When done this way the gasket should be much less likely to be pulled out from under the filter and into the throttle body. Using a 'mat' of neoprene or rubber under the filter invites trouble because the suction forces from the throttle body will pull up on the center of the mat eventually pulling it loose from the center to the outside and then out from under the filter element and into the throttle body. This scenario is avoided by not having any gasket material inside the inside perimeter of the filter element. Placing the reinforcing attachment rivets outside the filter element greatly reduces the chance of sucking a rivet into the intake system since they are located outside the filter element.

Here in Arizona the air can get downright dirty (I'm talking about big, evil, nasty grit) and I don't consider a leaky filter seal to be a situation I can simply let pass by. Any fix for this problem is still going to require periodic close inspection, but that's what we do anyway, eh?

Please feel free to pick my design apart. I'm still trying to determine if I've covered all the the possible failure modes and more discussion about this would be appreciated.
 
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Permanent Approach

MacNab said:
I've also had problems getting a good seal on the air filter in my FAB and I also used RTV on the top of the air filter gasket to try to seal it up better. I'll be removing the RTV this weekend before I fly the plane again.

After some clean-up with solvent and a wire wheel I would epoxy the neoprene gasket to the bottom of the FAB and rivet the gasket to the bottom of the FAB through the gasket material outside the filter element and then reinforce the rivets on both top and bottom with epoxy to prevent them from loosening.

.
Click to expand...

FYI, you're supposed to have a signature box telling who you are, where you are from and what you are building/flying. We're all friends here, no reason to hide.

I don't like the idea of trying to fasten dissimilar materials. No adhesive is going to adequately secure neoprene to fiberglass. Even with rivets you run the risk of a piece of the neoprene coming loose, the glue giving way or a tear occuring.

This winter I'm going to order a new bottom piece (the airbox portion). After getting it set up to the mounting bracket I'll wrap the filter in Saran wrap and fasten it temporarily to the top plate of the system. Then I'll mix a batch of epoxy and flox and lay it on the area that will contact the filter creating a perfect seal when the box is secured to the plate.

After curing I'll clean up the outside and inside with the Dremel and fill as necessary to get a good transition on both sides of the filter.

As Bob said, this is no place to cut corners or get to creative.
 
szicree said:
This is all very timely info for me as I just ordered my FAB today. Having never seen it first hand I'm now a bit concerned about what I'll be getting. Any ideas on a better mousetrap would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

The whole idea is to slightly squeeze the airfilter between the fiberglass air box & the top plate. Seems that some didn't get enough of that squeeze before drilling and riviting..............and neither did I. So I tore it apart and re-rivited, as well as filling the old holes with fiberglass for looks.

And BTW, I did install the new version of alternate air with the cable. Just makes me feel better.

L.Adamson RV6A
 
kentb said:
In my plane I had a very small gap, so I added RTV under the filter. Should I be removing this and going with a buildup instead?

Kent
Click to expand...

I would ground the airplane until you do. Really.

This was the exact thing IIRC that caused Brian Denk's forced landing in his RV-8 a few years ago.
 
This was the exact thing IIRC that caused Brian Denk's forced landing in his RV-8 a few years ago.
Click to expand...

As I recall, Brian had used RTV to seal his fuel lines, and his problem occurred as a bead of RTV plugged the fuel supply. This is a different failure mode than having RTV in the air intake where a piece of the stuff would probably be ingested (and digested) by the engine.

However.....I'm not comfortable with having RTV near the fuel system. That is why I removed the RTV patch on the air filter that was suggested in the build manual for dealing with a misfit at the filter and a protrusion on the carb throat. I decided a small air leak was better than having the RTV near the carb intake.
 
AFB repair so far...

After only about 25 hour my emergency air bracket started coming loose. The pop rivits were pulling out the the fiberglass.



So I added a .020 backing on the inside of the airbox and used solid rivits.



In this picture you can also see my RTV gasket. I'll be removing it and use a buildup of fiberglass.

Kent
 
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Not trying to nitpick at all. Ok? But I would remove that back up plate. Those rivets go down and could vibrate loose and go up through the engine. The backing plate could come loose. Probably get stuck in the induction system disrupting airflow and causing engine roughness or failure. After the RTV removal you could lower the top plate and re-rivet lower for a tight fit on the filter. Probably less work than the fiberglass build up.

Since the holes are oversize from the pull rivets I would put 1/8" solid rivets (head down) shop side on the inside.

I think it's easy to misjudge how much vibration and suction is associated with the FAB....... AND the engine stopping consequences of something very small causing big problems.

Mike
 
plugged inlet

I had a Globe Swift years ago and a few months after I bought it the engine stumbled during the run-up. Went back to the hangar and re checked for water/ fouled plugs/ etc. Could not find the trouble so I flew the airplane and did not have anymore trouble until the engine quit dead in flight one afternoon. I dead sticked it back to a safe on airport landing.

Upon further inspection I found a round piece of aluminum speed take had made its way from the inside of carb heat shroud, through the SCAT tube down to the airbox. A little vacuum from the carb and the **** thing sucked up to the bottom of the carb inlet. Choked the engine.

Moral of the story, don't have anything near the induction system that can ever come loose. Don't use RTV in your fuel system either, these lessons were learned years ago.
 
And the repair goes on...

Removed RTV, sanded the area that fits against the filter. Added 2 layers of mat and then finished up with microballoons.

As for the emergency air, Vans already has you use solid rivets for the platenuts and pop rivets to hold the assembly on. I wouldn't think that the solid rivets would be anymore likely to break loose that the pop rivets.

I could put epoxy over all the rivets.



Kent
 
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