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Belted Air Power Chevy V6 ...Indirect Update

<<But stroboscopic analysis is old hat as well.>>

Ya'll will get a kick out of this.

You know those "safety precautions" for working around a live prop in the dark? I actually strobed myself in the face at several different frequencies just to make sure it didn't make me dizzy, or give me a seizure, or... something. It didn't, but I was too light-blinded to do any work for an hour <g>

<< a simple standard video camera might be useful. If the digital equivalent to shutter speed is fast enough,..>

Take a look at the "my nosewheel" videos posted in another thread. Check the prop.
 
Photos to go with a previous post.

That's my buddy Ron Collins on the throttle. His job is to monitor cooling and advance the throttle in 100 RPM increments so I can get a reading at each step. No, the prop is not bending. The airplane is tied to the blue truck. Transmitter is the little tube in the prop center.

Next photo is the fancy test equipment.

Last is a Measurements Group wheatstone bridge on the prop shaft. You really can save some weight by modeling torsional vibration. That shaft is a thinwall 4130 tube, not the railroad car axle seen on some. The models had already yielded a pretty good idea of expected vibratory torque. There was no need to guess about the required strength of the shaft when I went to the drawing board.

Starting to see why I don't think it unreasonable to expect vendors to do the same thing?


Shot at 2007-07-19
 
Again in reference to a previous post; What are models?

Strictly speaking a torsional model is a math exercise. The required math runs from very simple for a basic two-element frequency model to quite complex for a Holzer-method analysis of many elements with amplitude. All of it can be found in old books. How to calculate this stuff has been known since well before WWII. Modern developments are mostly methods of using computer power to obtain great accuracy in fully dynamic models.

We don't work for Caterpillar or Toyota, where experts do a torsional analysis of every rotating shaft system as part of the design process. We can reasonably simplify our approach. For the most part we don't need to worry about amplitude at a resonant RPM; our goal is to move it out of the operating range so it doesn't matter.

The process starts with some visualization. Take a look at the images below. The first line is a representation of a simple torsional model, two inertias connected by a single stiffness. The image on the right is the usual represenation found in the textbooks. Large inertias are drawn as disks larger than the small ones, although usually no effort is made to draw them in accurate proportion. The "shaft" represents the connecting stiffness value.

Next we have some reasonable representations of a Lycoming 4-cyl and a BAP/Chevy V6. The Lycoming has a metal fixed pitch prop, assumed (for purposes of this example only) to be quite stiff in bending. The BAP is assumed to have a prop with a ground adjustable hub, ie small blade roots, so I've drawn in an "equivelent torsional stiffness" at the root. The BAP has another equivelent torsional stiffness, the belt connecting the upper and lower sprocket inertias. For both examples we also have inertias for each crankthrow. The BAP includes a flywheel inertia.

The next line would be Ross's Marcotte system on a 4-cyl Subaru. In the left figure, from left to right, we have a prop, propshaft, ring gear reduction, the soft element bushings, a flywheel, the crank stub, and four crankthrows with connecting shafts. The prop hub has been ignored. In this model as well as all the previous I've also ignored the accessory drive(s), things like camshafts and belt-driven alternators. They wouldn't do that at Toyota.

When treated this way, the math model would have seven inertias and six connecting stiffness values. The math gets complex, at least if you do it by hand. For poor homebuilders, it is also difficult to assign individual stiffness and inertia values to the crankthrows. So, we use a simplified model.

As Ross previously dscribed, the Subaru crank is compact and likely quite stiff. For our simplified model, we treat the entire crankshaft and flywheel assembly as a single inertia. Hang it on a bifillar pendulum, time the oscillation, and with a minute's calculation we know it's inertia.

Now our model only has four inertias and three stiffness values. The results won't be of any practical difference in the context of determining F1 and F2 natural frequencies. To make it really easy use something like the Holzer program I mentioned in a much earlier post. Now that you have a reasonable model of your existing system, you can play with a particular stiffness or inertia and see the shift in natural frequencies. In the case of Ross's drive, the logical place to start would be variations in the stiffness of the coupler.

Wanna make it really easy? Eliminate the equivelent stiffness at the blade roots. Now you have a three-element model, which can be hammered for F1 and F2 with two equations. Nothing in them more difficult than using the square root key on a $10 calculator. The result requires a simple assumption; the actual frequencies will be a little lower than the computed result.

Note to lurking geeks: yeah, you gotta include an adjustment for gearing. One bite at a time <g>.

Now you see why I think it a lot easier to experiment with a model than with an endless cycle of building and installing and running new parts.


Shot at 2007-07-20
 
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Cool stuff Dan! Well, except for that o-scope. You must have decided that given old math equations, and an antique airplane, an antique scope was appropriate. I haven't driven a scope that didn't boot windows for quite a while now. Although, come to think of it, that's not an improvement! :D

Regarding torsional vibration and gearboxes (or belt drives), how would the strain guage detect the flex? I would think that the drive would absorb the flex, until it failed of course.


Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
<<how would the strain guage detect the flex?>>

You mean detect the strain? You can have quite a lot of strain without any obvious flex.

I recommend a review at:

http://www.vishay.com/test-measurements/

http://www.vishay.com/strain-gages/knowledge-base-list/

http://www.vishay.com/docs/11334/250us.pdf

It is possible to have an issue with low resolution when the subject part is unnecessarily heavy duty for the applied load. In our case that means a ****-for-stout propshaft, created by eyeball with no knowledge of the actual loads expected in service. Assuming the goal is an engineered system, strain gauge resolution should not be an issue because we also wish to reduce weight.
 
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<<You can have quite a lot of strain without any obvious flex.>>

Of course. I should have been more precise. What I meant is given that the PSRU might be absorbing the majority of the torsional vibration, how do you quantify the strain that the PSRU is absorbing? Or is it a case of not allowing ANY resonance points in the operating range?

Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
<<What I meant is given that the PSRU might be absorbing the majority of the torsional vibration, how do you quantify the strain that the PSRU is absorbing?>>

Define "absorbing".
 
DanH said:
<<What I meant is given that the PSRU might be absorbing the majority of the torsional vibration, how do you quantify the strain that the PSRU is absorbing?>>

Define "absorbing".

I guess I should have been a lot more precise. :eek:

I would expect that a belt drive PSRU would absorb (or damp) the peak amplitude of torsional strain, perhaps by quite a lot. Instead of two masses conected by a very stiff element, you have two masses conected by a damping element (the belt). The energy would go into heating the belt. How would that energy be quantified? Belt temp?

In a gear drive PSRU, the torsional vibration amplitude that would cause gear tooth distress might be pretty low relative to what the prop shaft could tolerate. This might cause an issue with resolution, as you indicated above.
The oil shear between gear teeth would also damp the peak amplitude, and heat the gear box.

My engineering instinct (which has been wrong before) is that any less stiff element in between the two masses will reduce the peak amplitude.

Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
<<I would expect that a belt drive PSRU would absorb (or damp) the peak amplitude of torsional strain, perhaps by quite a lot. Instead of two masses conected by a very stiff element, you have two masses conected by a damping element (the belt). The energy would go into heating the belt.>>

If it were a damper, it would indeed heat the belt. Good thing it's not. The idea that a belt somehow "absorbs" vibration is one of the internet's longer lasting myths. Truth is, a belt introduces some interesting vibrations not present in a geared system. For example, your tool, the strobe, works pretty well to observe standing waves in a belt.

Friction is the primary damping mechanism. One of the original design goals of the HTD belt was increased drive efficiency due to reduced frictional losses. Even so, some small friction remains to contribute to overall system friction, so yes, you can argue that it is a damper. You would be correct, but it would be like arguing that an extra case of martini glasses made the Titanic sink more quickly.

Seriously, damping resonance requires dumping a lot of heat. A talented engineer buddy calculated it as roughly equivelent to a 1200 hair dryer in the case of my old Suzuki drive.
 
This in reference to post #40, the second mode problem in trying to observe shaft twist by looking at the far ends of the system.

In the first mode, encoders at the ends would work great. In the second mode you might see little relative motion, but the center mass could be oscillating with considerable amplitude. That is not to say you would see no motion. Relative to a fixed reference you should see increased amplitude at the resonant speed for the 2nd mode. Forget about any measurement value in reference to the other end.

Ross suggested mounting one of the encoders at his prop flange and the other at the flywheel rather than at the crankshaft accessory end. That would get him closer to what might be the center of the system. However, there is no guarantee that his system mimics the tidy 2nd mode example. A plot of mode shapes derived from a Holzer table would identify the node locations. You would then know exactly where to place the encoders.

Consider the concept of nodes. A node is a point along the shaft between two opposing inertias (or sets of inertias) where there is no relative motion. If you place two encoders based on guess, and through sheer bad luck managed to place both of them at two nodes, the encoders would show no motion at all.

I suggested that Ross should go ahead and try it anyway. At the very least he will learn how to instrument with whatever devices he might choose.


Shot at 2007-07-21
 
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State-of-the-art torsional modeling:

http://www.torsional.com/images/pdfs/marine_app.pdf

Diesel powered branched system with multiple gear ratios. Ack!

Note that current software of this kind makes allowance for bearing friction at every shaft, the small damping value found in the torsional soft couplings, etc. In the absence of a dedicated damping device, this is the real truth of damping. It is the sum of the small frictional values that keeps a resonant system amplitude from reaching infinity.

Compared to modeling this marine drive system, ours are very simple....and we can get better results too.
 
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<<It is the sum of the small values that keeps a resonant system amplitude from reaching infinity.>>

This is what I was getting at in my earlier posts. I know that steel is really good at handling flex, as long as max strain is below the elastic limit. So, it might not take much much elasticity in a connecting element to limit the max strain to a safe value. The area under the strain curve wouldn't change, but the peak value would.

What I'm really curious about though, is how strain in a belt might be measured. With one sprocket on the crankshaft, and a typically short and beefy prop shaft, it would seem that if distructive resonance occurs, itwould occur in the belt. How to strain guage a belt? Looking at witness marks on the belt sprockets, stroboscopic analysis could show resonance occuring, but it might be very difficult to gauge amplitude. Is there an industry standard way this is done?


Ted Johns
RV7 plans preview
 
Ted,
It is possible for a node to be located at the belt. There is no requirement to place a stain gauge at a node.
 
Thanks to Dan for this wonderful thread. I'm sure I speak for many reading but not posting simply because we're on the steepest part of the learning curve and have nothing to add. I am learning a lot and always knew there must be something to understand about this topic. Now I can just barely keep up with the topic but really need to ask a question. I am close to making the final engine decision for my RV7A. I like the idea of the Egg H6 for its smoothness, dual-mass flywheel, heavy gear box etc etc. But have always been concerned with the lack of real math, testing, lack of history ,measured and posted results. Maybe they don't think we would understand it anyway. Maybe it hasn't been done and maybe they don't even understand it. Question: Dan, in your personal opinion, would a Lyc clone with a fixed Sensenich prop (tested on Lycs) with electronic ignition be a riskier or safer approach in terms of harmful vibrations of all kinds than the Egg Subaru with 2.02 drive and three blade carbon fiber prop, or would they be equally unknown? Thanks for your insight.

Bevan
RV7A wiring, engine decision time and scrambling up the steep part of the learning curve.
 
Dan,

Further, would you say that a lyc clone will have (for all practical purposes) the same torsional profiles (modes, nodes, amplitudes, natural frequencies, restricted RPM ranges etc) as the eqivalent certified Lyc? If so, would adding electronic ignition with variable timing (Lightspeed) significant alter same?

Bevan
 
Bevan,
In the strict context of torsional vibration, there shouldn't be any difference between a measured Lycoming/propeller-X combination and the same prop on a Ly-clone, assuming it is really a clone.

The addition of an electronic ignition has been shown to have an effect on metal propeller vibration. Search around and you'll find bulletins that address the matter. The bulletins more or less say "don't do it", but fail to supply hard data so we're all in the dark. I suspect (caution; unproven assumption!) the observed stress increase indicated a reduction in expected (long) service life rather than likely short-life catastrophic failure. Obviously there are lots of EI units flying and they are not flinging blades....yet.

Ly-clone safer than an Egg? I'll probably make somebody mad here, so please try to remember that I like and support alternative engines, have flown my own experiments to OSH and S&F, and have more of the same planned for the future.

Currently I think the Lycoming and the Ly-clones far less experimental than any alternative. I also think the average homebuilder is more likely to achieve a safe installation with a conventional engine; the auxiliary systems are less complex and the support network (# of qualified eyeballs)more extensive.
 
I'd agree with Dan on this point and like to add that much of the don't do Lyco/ Clone/ prop combos revolve around long term fatigue issues with metal props. I'd concur that you are probably in safer territory with a wood or composite prop on a Lyco/ Clone from a prop and TV standpoint than most relatively untested auto conversions.
 
Thanks!

In respect to your comment "If it really is a clone", My clone would be an Aerosport power built IO-360 made from a combo of ECI and Superior parts. These parts (as I understand it) are "equivalent" dimensionally to a Lyc as they have to fit same. True? and is this a true clone in your opinion?

Thanks

Bevan
Abbotsford BC
 
Bevan,
Ask Aerosport Power if your engine would in fact be identical to a particular certified Lyc. Then ask Sensenich how they view such a clone. Then report back here <g>
 
i was wondering if we might be able to get back on subject with this post...

i thought it was about Belted Air Power...

please dont flame me, i just am interested in BAP and would like to get more info.....

thanks!

jeff
 
<<i just am interested in BAP and would like to get more info>>

No problem Jeff. Fact is, so would I. Apparently there are no flying BAP owners present and willing to participate.

At least 90% of the issues discussed here apply to a BAP drive. The laws of physics apply equally to all.

What info would you like to have?
 
well, basically i would like to know if people are having problems with the system, how are issues such as cooling, etc, etc holding up and in general, how do they like the system.

also, which prop is best suited for it...

do you have any gouge on it?

thanks

Jeff
 
V6 90 Degree 4.3 L. Bore 4.0 inch X 3.480 inch Stroke
101.6 mm 88.39 mm

Cast Iron block with cast iron heads fitted with chrome rocker covers.
Completely rebalanced crankshaft assembly.
New mains and big end bearings
Chrome molly rings
Proven selected cam for optimum low rpm torque and steady idle characteristics.
New roller timing chain
New oil pump
Roller hydraulic cam or hydraulic flat tappet according to block requirements
Stainless steel valves and optional roller rockers
Alloy intake manifold.
2 barrel carburetor with mixture adjustment leaver.
Special harmonic balancer fitted and an Alloy flywheel.
Modified distributor, with twin ignition coils firing a single spark plug.
Conventional V6 coolant pump or electric water pump with auto temp sensing and circulation after shut down for a pre
determined time.
30 amp min alternator
Geared starter
Wet sump
Weight 292 lbs bare


Accessories:

Belted Air Reduction Drive 1.43 : 1 ratio weighs 48 lbs
Radiator
Header tank.
Engine mount to suit Cyclone 2 and 4 ; RV 6 , 7 and 9 series aircraft.
Cowl baffles to suit above installations
Complete engine cowl

Exhaust 3 into 1 each side

Optional accessories

Alloy heads provide a saving of 40 lbs weight Special head gaskets and block stud kit required.

Electric water pump with temperature controller.
Alloy V6 block a saving of approximately 60 lb.
(for an aircraft engine that is a lot of weight to save.)
Roller ratio Rockers
 
Power and Performance Information.

225 HP @ 4,500 rpm 1.43: 1 PSRU reduction = 3146 rpm
180 HP @ 3600 rpm 70 % power = 2517

Torque C/shaft @ 3,000 rpm the V6 delivers 262 ft lbs of torque.

Fuel Burn From 3 gal to 7 gall per hour.

Price From $20,000 Australian $



Looking at the number of engines available over 130 hp it soon becomes a very short list on what is available other than GA
type flat engines.
The Chevy V6 with Belted Air Power in the RV 6 is a known comparison to compare with and I asked Jess Meyers what he thought
was an honest opinion as an attractive alternative.
The RV Jess flies, according to him is no masterpiece, and was not a quick build kit either. Built in 3 places and assembled
in 1 made it a very interesting challenge to put together and required some clean up of the aerodynamic areas.

On performance do not underestimate this combination. Jess can depart North Las Vegas on 100 degree day at gross of 1750 and
climb out at 900 to 1000 ft per minute.
Sure, we are told ?most RV`s will do that. ?
When you factor in the field elevation at 5000msl this certainly grabs everybody?s attention.

Flying in the real world it is about fuel usage not just at cruise but overall from start to landing. Jess can select a tank,
start the engine, taxi out, takeoff, fly a 150 mile flight, return and top off the tank singular.
The flight usage from start to top off used 7.5 gal per hour.
With say a Lyc the take off and climb to altitude will burn as much as the next hour in flight. Think about it???..on today?s
cost of fuel??.

On a go around as long as the airplane is above 70 knots indicated and throttle is pushed to the wall it is instant power.
Gives you a kick in the seat and it is up and roaring. With a Warp/Drive prop we can enter the pattern at 180 mph
indicated, retard the throttle and have breaking power such as a Ground Fine in a turbine, advancing the throttle we
can go 0 thrust to glide.
This engine package has a lot of advantages. You can go straight to 10 grand , chop the throttle and head straight back down
if you want and you will not thermal shock the cylinders. On the RV the cruise can be a leisurely 140 ind to 180 ind .
The Chevy will take on a tuned Lyc to 8K no problem. The Lync may slightly pull away which is still saying something.
Jess frequently flies for 160 mph with an rpm of around 3600 to 3700 rpm with a fuel burn of 7.5 us gal per hour.

Jess has been testing the new Vari Prop which will suit the Chev V6 conversion and our engine packages. Initial testing
showed over 1500 ft per minute climb out.
An economy flight revealed with the engine back to 2500 rpm and 20 inches for 130 knots indicated WITH a fuel burn of 3 galls
per hour says it all.

Jess runs the all cast iron engine.
Performance and weight usually go hand in hand so with alloy heads and alloy block options our performance can only get
better.
 
Power and Performance Information.

225 HP @ 4,500 rpm 1.43: 1 PSRU reduction = 3146 rpm
180 HP @ 3600 rpm 70 % power = 2517

Torque C/shaft @ 3,000 rpm the V6 delivers 262 ft lbs of torque.

Fuel Burn From 3 gal to 7 gall per hour.

Price From $20,000 Australian $

On performance do not underestimate this combination. Jess can depart North Las Vegas on 100 degree day at gross of 1750 and
climb out at 900 to 1000 ft per minute.
Sure, we are told ?most RV`s will do that. ?
When you factor in the field elevation at 5000msl this certainly grabs everybody?s attention.Flying in the real world it is about fuel usage not just at cruise but overall from start to landing. Jess can select a tank,
start the engine, taxi out, takeoff, fly a 150 mile flight, return and top off the tank singular.
The flight usage from start to top off used 7.5 gal per hour.
With say a Lyc the take off and climb to altitude will burn as much as the next hour in flight. Think about it???..on today?s
cost of fuel??.


FYI, the field elevation at Las Vegas is 2205.

I've seen Jess's setup and almost bought in when I was based at KVGT.
I was impressed with it and the cost.
 
just checking in to see if anyone is flying with the Belted Air unit yet...

i havent seen much posted in a while.......

any updates?

thanks!

Jeff
 
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