Charge Warning Light and The Nippondenso 60amp (Vans ) IR Alternator

Perhaps George ([email protected]) can chime in on this as I 've seen him comment about the ability of this alternator to light a low voltage/no charge light.
I confirmed this with Gus at Vans today, but I got a vague answer. Gus said he thinks you could use the top wire of the 3 conductor plug connector and it would provide a ground during an alternator problem. So you wire one side of a low voltage/no charge light to the buss and the other to this wire on the back of the alternator.
I can't find squat anywherre on the internet about a wiring diagram for this alternator The only schematic I have is the one Vans supplied with the alternator that only addresses one of the 3 wires in the plug on the back of the alternator. Has anybody wired an indicator to this alternator. (Sounds like George did) Can you provide some info on how you did it?

Try this..

Don't know if Van is still selling this one but will answer your questions if it is..
John

NipponDenso Info

D, L and IGN

Yep John has the right pic. Here is my cartoon that I drew up. What ever you do LEAVE THE DUMMY alone, no not me, the dummy terminal.



http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=altwiring5cm.jpg


Dummy terminal: In the past Van recommended connection or jumping the D terminal, which worked for one brand of clone they sold but not another brand of rebuild/clone they later sold. Actually the D terminal should do nothing, but it apparently does with some aftermarket brands and can cause a failure if you use it. Just ignore the D terminal, you'll be fine.

If you don't use the L just leave it disconnected. The L terminal can handle up to 1 amp, which is plenty even for an incandescent indicator light.

Myth: The "IGN" lead to the alternator needs a 5 or 7 amp fuse. It should pull less than 1 amp. It does not hurt to have a bigger fuse but its not needed. "IGN" is just a wake or sleep signal not a source of power for the "Field" like on some alternators. "Field" power is supplied internally thru the "B" lead (the big heavy wire from the alternator to the battery or battery buss.)

Looks like this is a great and cheap way to monitor the alternator!!!! Thank you both for your help. It's great to have this forum so we can all share experiences.

I thought about this, but have a friend that wasn't getting his to work correctly. I don't know if instructions were followed to the letter or not. In the end, I went with the $80 warning light from Van's. Will work with all kinds of alternators, as it just measures the drop in voltage below 13 volts. Flashes bright red for 30 seconds before staying lit full time. Those 30 seconds of flashing will also get your attention that the master switch is still on, after engine shutdown.

This system does require the warning light that comes with the kit, as a small circuit board is attached.

Its all good, but a Low Volt light is a must IMHO

L.Adamson said:

I thought about this, but have a friend that wasn't getting his to work correctly. I don't know if instructions were followed to the letter or not. In the end, I went with the $80 warning light from Van's.

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Nothing wrong with that, but the IR alternators do have their own low voltage/no charge light. My GRT EIS4000 has low volt warning built into it, but I am going to wire the alternators warning light in as well; it's there and basically free.

Bottom Line: Every RV should have a low voltage light, especially if you have a glass panel or electrically dependant engine. For some reason Van the minimalist does not supply the wiring for it. Its not required by FAR's.

One myth or rumor someone says with a big soap box that has no proof, is that if the alternator fails the warning light will not work? Not true. The design of the regulator is really such that a regulator failure will not disable the warning function under realistic scenarios. The functions are isolated and independent, even if they are within the same space. I guess if the alternator fell off the plane or the plug came out it would disable the light.

The alternator can provide a reliable and useful low & high volt light. Actually the light is a fault logic light: OVERVOLTAGE, UNDERVOLTAGE, BROKEN-BELT and FAIL-SAFE INDICATOR LIGHT FUNCTIONS

Fault logic in the microprocessor will make the light latch on. Yes, the voltage regulator in an internally regulated ND alternator has a microprocessor functions and logic, at least OEM Nippondenso units do. The down side is you can't adjust the trigger voltages like you can with some after-market add-on Hi/Lo volt warning devices. I think typically the light will come on below the typical volt set point (about 14.5 volt) and above 16 or 16.5 volt, but it varies by regulator model. It still is a useful warning to wire in.

gmcjetpilot said:

Bottom Line: Every RV should have a low voltage light, especially if you have a glass panel or electrically dependant engine. For some reason Van the minimalist does not supply the wiring for it. Its not required by FAR's.

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A few years back, we ran into supposable alternator problem, where the voltage dropped while in flight, and a low voltage warning light came on. As I remember, it was a Rocky Mtn. engine monitoring system.

We made a landing at the nearest airport, pulled the cowl, and tightened the belt, although it didn't appear too loose to start with. Started the engine and everything seemed back to normal.

Once airborne, and numerous systems on line, the voltage dropped again, along with the warning light illuminating.

This time, we pulled the alternator off for a rebuild, when I discovered that the alternator lead had been arching where it was crimped. The wire simply pulled out of the terminal with just a slight pull.

Here is a case, where the alternator was actually fine, but the wiring (at the terminal crimp) couldn't handle the current load. Once the load was building, the voltage dropped, the "low voltage" warning light illuminated, yet the alternator was performing just fine.

So................. in a case such as this, would a built in alternator lead warning light (as in the diagram), stay off, while the voltage to the buss-es and battery is actually dropping? Is this a situation where a low voltage light that is actually monitoring buss voltage, would be the better method?

L.Adamson

Interesting

L.Adamson said:

A few years back, L.Adamson

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Interesting. Not sure I follow, but those intermittent conditional faults are always hard to trace.

What I get from your comment is, WIRING to and from the alternator is so very important. One big problem is the vibrations and not supporting the wires properly. If the wiring is messed up, all bets are off. There is only so much alternator warning lights and engine monitors can do.

I had a similar problem in an old piper Apache twin with a generator. The output lead was, terminal fitting was there and looked OK and it was making continuity, but because so many strands where broken (but not visible) it would show good continuity but could not handle the full amps. The symptoms where weird and did not discover it until I pulled the generator off and than got a good look at the connector, which was the problem.

George, what you describe as the dummy lead is a volt sense lead on some ND clone Alternators. On the one I installed in a Glasair (NOT from Vans, from NAPA) it HAD to be hook up to bus or else output went up to ~18VDC. Crappy regulator in that one I guess.

The Auto Electric industry in transition

osxuser said:

George, what you describe as the dummy lead is a volt sense lead on some ND clone Alternators. On the one I installed in a Glasair (NOT from Vans, from NAPA) it HAD to be hook up to bus or else output went up to ~18VDC. Crappy regulator in that one I guess.

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18 volts is a little high but it happens. Yep probably a regulator.

Now I take it that you did not have the warning light hooked up? I suspect the light would have went on (if you had it hooked up) before 18 volts. The specs say the light is set at 16.5 volts, but it varies by model of ND. However NAPA may sell a clone copy ND that may not meet all OEM specs. In fact its very possible it does not met specs or quality. It is hit and miss and the most frustrating thing with auto electric supply industry today. Really its always been kind of hit or miss industry.

Not all "clone" alternators are made with nippondenso parts or parts that meet OEM specs. In my research and following the topic, I find OV conditions are rare, and when it does happen it's mild, 16-18 volts range. One way to control it of course is lower RPM a little and/or add electrical load, landing lights and nav or strobes. However 18 volts does not totally surprise me, but it is on the high side. Most all new avionics can handle up to 30 volts with out skipping a beat.

Why do cars with ND alternators have few failures and over voltages compared to RV (glasair) builders?

There two reasons that this happens: The Pilot and Quality

Yes, you had an OV, probably caused by a bad regulator, but it is rare. Millions of cars/trucks/tractors all over the world are going 24/7 with out problems. Some times it is a bad regulator, but some times its a good regulator damaged by the pilot.

My pet peeve as you might know is PIF - Pilot Induced Failures. Turning the alternator on and off while the engine is running under electrical load is a no no. In a car when you operate one of these IR (internal regulated) alternators (which they where designed for) you turn it on (wake it up) before starting the engine and leave on until you shut the engine down; that is the way it was designed to work. However in a car the alternator operations are all controlled with the sequence ignition switch, so the driver is out of the loop. In a plane however, the pilots has that little ALT switch, which they can't resist touching to see what happens. I know what happens, it can fry the regulator. The "IGN" lead is just there to tell the alternator to get ready to go to work, wake-up, or it tells the alternator to sleep, go to standby so it does not drain the battery. When you play with it while the engine is under load it can damage the regulator. Many a fried regulator I have studied had one thing in common, a pilot that like to throw switches. I have no absolute proof but there is a common thread.

The other problem with Vans, may be NAPA and certainty the whole aftermarket Auto-electrical business is inconsistent quality and specs. Like the used car salesman, "rebuilt" alternators and starters have always had a poor reputation in the auto maintenance business, for decades. The industry is now in transition from rebuilding to inexpensive new "clones" from China. It's just cheaper to buy a new aftermarket unit than rebuild an old one an make money at it. Not all China clones are good, some are.

Now we have Plane Power and Van is getting with better quality clones, so I think the situation is better.

I have no problem with going to NAPA, AutoZone or Pep Boys. They offer life time warranties and they are convenient. If it dies, take it out and go get a new one. You really don't have a lot of choice. ND doesn't make new OEM units in the out of production size/model that's popular with the homebuilt plane crowd (aka the 55/60 amp Suzuki or +60 amp corolla), so your choice is rebuilt, clone or specialty (Plane power, B&C).

However if going IFR, I would go with the "plane power" brand. I went with an OEM genuine ND from a folk lift. Its expensive, but I know the quality is there. If doing it today, I'd get a Plane Power (IR) unit. Regardless of how you go nothing is perfect. However there are some sub par units being sold, just be aware. Whether NAPA was selling low quality, I don't know. I know you would never turn your alternator on/off with the engine running.

Good Volt/Amps Meter a Must

No engine needs a reliable alternator warning system like the Subaru.

I have found the Electronics International VA-1A, FAA/PMA approved, to be the cat's meow for reliability and accuracy. It has a discharge (low volt) warning light and monitors amp load or system voltage precisely.

The voltage output is so consistent (14.1-14.2 with a ND alternator) any deviation is an indication something is not right. This is a before take off check. In flight I monitor amp load, if it drops to zero the alternator has quit, the engine is running on one or both batteries and it is time to find an airport.

The only down side of the instrument is the cost, currently $327.96 at ACS. But it is a quality instrument and worth the investment for anyone needing to know what the alternator is doing.

We sell a low voltage warning setup for $76US. This has both a light and 95 decibel aural warning which you can't miss. A poll I did a couple years ago indicated a full 50% of pilots who had suffered and alternator failure, never noticed the light was on until other things started to happen, especially when the panel was in sunlight. Big jets have aural warnings for most critical system failures for good reason too.

Our new EMSs monitor voltage now and will trip a voltage error code and turn on a light as well. This stuff is critical with battery powered ignition and fuel delivery as David said.

That is a good idea

rv6ejguy said:

We sell a low voltage warning setup for $76US. This has both a light and 95 decibel aural warning which you can't miss. A poll I did a couple years ago indicated a full 50% of pilots who had suffered and alternator failure, never noticed the light was on until other things started to happen, especially when the panel was in sunlight. Big jets have aural warnings for most critical system failures for good reason too.

Our new EMSs monitor voltage now and will trip a voltage error code and turn on a light as well. This stuff is critical with battery powered ignition and fuel delivery as David said.

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Wow, you are right Ross. That is so true, people do miss lights.

Boeing puts warning lights right in front of your face on the edge of the glare shield, and you get several types of aural warnings, from beep-beep (for advisory), voice (all kinds) to the one you don't want to ever hear, fire bell. So Boeing engineers figured out light and sound is key to waking up the pilot. There are some Boeing advisories/alerts that come on with no aural warning. In the simulator, pilots take much longer to notice the alerts without the aural warning, which is no surprise to you. (It happens to pilots of all kinds of experience.)

My GRT EIS (with low volts) has just a light; its big, red and front and center but no aural. I have to depend on just the light. I could hook it up to a little electronic beeper and pipe into the audio, just a subtle low tone beep-beep repeated every 5 or 10 seconds would do it. Cool idea, thanks.

If someone needs a stand alone low volt warning light, yours would be a good one. I guess you could hook up some kind of relay and aural warning to any light, but yours sounds cool, especially if you have an electrically dependant engine.

Bottom line: light and noise is key to noticing. The only thing I would add, you need some way to cancel or kill the warning aural. Say the alternator dies for and you know it. You are trying to fly the plane with a loud buzzer would be distracting. I am sure a aural kill switch would be easy to install. On Boeing aircraft you just hit the glareshield light and it kills the light and aural.

You can add a micro toggle switch to power the warning box if you wish. This allows you to disable if required- just make sure this switch is on your checklist!

George, not sure that I got your recommendation

Are you saying that the engine should be started and shutdown in the ALT position or are you recommending only going to ALT after the engine is started and turning off the ALT before the engine is shutdown?

Kent

He's saying the ALT switch should never be thrown while the engine (and alternator) are turning.

Procedure should therefor be to turn on the BAT and ALT together, crank, fly, park, fuel cutoff, BAT and ALT off together. I have to say I agree with him on this one.

When flipping the ALT switch with the alternator under rotation, the regulator is suddenly faced with a low voltage situation and hits the field coil with full current, which immediately produces an overvolt situation, which then causes the regulator to quickly dial back the field current, and it will oscillate back and forth a couple cycles (much less than a second duration) before stabilizing. As was mentioned in another thread, the feedback bandwidth of the regulator has been exceeded and it hits the limits on both sides during the attempt.

Energizing the alternator before engine start allows the regulator to SLOWLY (relative term - seconds instead of milliseconds) adjust the field current to match the output. The RPM of the alternator will change much more slowly (seconds) than the regulator can adjust the field current (milliseconds), and you stay within the feedback bandwidth of the regulator.

If you want to test your alternator output, after engine start hit your landing light and watch the ammeter. You should see about 1/4 second drop into negative territory before returning to zero - that's the regulator adjusting the field current to compensate for the added draw.

airguy said:

He's saying the ALT switch should never be thrown while the engine (and alternator) are turning.

Procedure should therefor be to turn on the BAT and ALT together, crank, fly, park, fuel cutoff, BAT and ALT off together. I have to say I agree with him on this one.

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Huh. I've flown a Rotax for so long, I'd forgotten about this. SOP for the 912 is to pull ALT than BATT breakers / switches before shutting down the engine.

NOT SO FAST!

This excerpt from an article says the opposite concerning turning on the alt.

Making your charging system last

You may be surprised at the number of things that may turn on and off unexpectedly, causing a fluctuating ammeter, yet the charging system is working fine. In fact, it is doing the job it was designed to do. Rotating beacons that are near the end of their lives, some transponders, landing lights with bad connections, pitot tube heaters, landing gear systems, etc. can all turn on and off unexpectedly.

So you don't have any problems and hope you never will. Perhaps if you follow two simple suggestions you may never have a problem, or at least you will substantially reduce the chances of having one.

Have you ever asked yourself why the charging systems in aircraft fail so often? In reality they should last longer than their automotive counterparts. Why is that? Consider that the alternator in a car is subjected to far more engine starts (requiring a heavy charge at low RPM), and often has to sustain a heavy load during engine idle on hot days while you're stuck in traffic with the air conditioner running full blast. They have to operate in heat conditions that are well above 200 degrees F with poor ventilation. The alternator is usually mounted near the bottom of an engine and is subjected to repeated water drowning - complete with road grime and dirt, when driving in the rain. Even subjected to all this abuse it easily survives 10 years and over 100,00 miles.

I can honestly say that I have never seen a Chrysler alternator fail electrically in any vehicle or marine application. The one in my 1964 Plymouth Valiant has over 200,000 miles on it. Ditto for the pickup and the station wagon. This is the identical 60 amp alternator installed on many Cherokees, the only difference being a little sticker that says FAA-PMA approved.

I have seen Chrysler alternators fail mechanically - the diode packs having fallen out or bearings seized - but not electrically. So why does everyone curse their Chrysler alternator? Probably because it was the alternator that was installed in the airplane. Talk to a Beech or Cessna owner and they probably don't have much good to say for Delco or Prestolite alternators either.

The alternator in an aircraft is operating in a nearly perfect environment -- relatively constant speed, constant load, low overall load, high RPM, a fairly cool well ventilated space, rarely gets wet, not exposed to much dirt and grime. But why do they fail so much more often, The primary reason is overloading. The secondary reason is simply the design of the charging systems in light aircraft. Often, the alternator and voltage regulator have not failed, it's simply a switch or circuit breaker that has become faulty. Why does this not happen in a car? Read on.

Don't overload the system!You might say, I can't overload it. And I will say, "You do it every time you start your airplane". Yes, that's the sad truth and probably the main reason aircraft charging systems have such a high failure rate. Yet there is a very simple thing that you can do that does not require any modifications to your aircraft. The two simple steps are:

1) Leave the alternator switch OFF BEFORE starting the engine.

2) Turn the alternator switch ON AFTER the engine is running'
This same process occurs automatically when you start your car or boat or virtually any other machine with a charging system. This function is performed by the ignition switch in your car. Accessories will work with the ignition switch in the on position, but will cut out when the switch is advanced to the engine start position. The ignition switch is also cutting off power to the voltage regulator (which shuts down the alternator) while the engine is being started.

In an aircraft, the alternator is usually turned on at the same time the master switch is turned on. This applies full power to the alternator field, since the voltage regulator is sensing the battery voltage (which is less than 13.8 volts). You then start the engine using the ignition switch. During the start, power is available to the alternator through the voltage regulator.

As the engine is being started the alternator is turning fast enough to produce some power. At the same time, however, the starter is drawing 200 to 300 amps. Most alternators can only sustain 60 to 70 amps -- 200 to 300 amps is equivalent to a dead short on the output of the alternator. This is a substantially overloaded situation, and the part most likely to fail will be the diode rectifier.

Whole article here under "Know your charging system": http://www.nflite.com/

My observation on aircraft alternator failures is than most are caused by the high vibration levels of the engine and prop combos. I've seen more external wire breakages than anything else which you almost never see on automotive applications.

tobinbasford said:

This excerpt from an article says the opposite concerning turning on the alt......
.......Whole article here under "Know your charging system": http://www.nflite.com/

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Interesting observation, Tobin.

My 2 cents on the subject, I've been operating the Subaru about 4 years as per the above article....a separate ALT switch comes on after the engine is started and stable. So far, so good.

Wait not so fast.

tobinbasford said:

This excerpt from an article says the opposite concerning turning on the alt.

Making your charging system last

You may be surprised at the number of things that may turn on and off unexpectedly, causing a fluctuating ammeter, yet the charging system is working fine. In fact, it is doing the job it was designed to do. Rotating beacons that are near the end of their lives, some transponders, landing lights with bad connections, pitot tube heaters, landing gear systems, etc. can all turn on and off unexpectedly.

Have you ever asked yourself why the charging systems in aircraft fail so often? In reality they should last longer than their automotive counterparts. Why is that? Consider that the alternator in a car is subjected to far more engine starts (requiring a heavy charge at low RPM), and often has to sustain a heavy load during engine idle on hot days while you're stuck in traffic with the air conditioner running full blast. They have to operate in heat conditions that are well above 200 degrees F with poor ventilation. The alternator is usually mounted near the bottom of an engine and is subjected to repeated water drowning - complete with road grime and dirt, when driving in the rain. Even subjected to all this abuse it easily survives 10 years and over 100,00 miles.

I can honestly say that I have never seen a Chrysler alternator fail electrically in any vehicle or marine application. The one in my 1964 Plymouth Valiant has over 200,000 miles on it. Ditto for the pickup and the station wagon. This is the identical 60 amp alternator installed on many Cherokees, the only difference being a little sticker that says FAA-PMA approved.

I have seen Chrysler alternators fail mechanically - the diode packs having fallen out or bearings seized - but not electrically. So why does everyone curse their Chrysler alternator? Probably because it was the alternator that was installed in the airplane. Talk to a Beech or Cessna owner and they probably don't have much good to say for Delco or Presto-lite alternators either.

The alternator in an aircraft is operating in a nearly perfect environment -- relatively constant speed, constant load, low overall load, high RPM, a fairly cool well ventilated space, rarely gets wet, not exposed to much dirt and grime. But why do they fail so much more often, The primary reason is overloading. The secondary reason is simply the design of the charging systems in light aircraft. Often, the alternator and voltage regulator have not failed, it's simply a switch or circuit breaker that has become faulty. Why does this not happen in a car? Read on.

Don't overload the system!You might say, I can't overload it. And I will say, "You do it every time you start your airplane". Yes, that's the sad truth and probably the main reason aircraft charging systems have such a high failure rate. Yet there is a very simple thing that you can do that does not require any modifications to your aircraft. The two simple steps are:

1) Leave the alternator switch OFF BEFORE starting the engine.

2) Turn the alternator switch ON AFTER the engine is running'
This same process occurs automatically when you start your car or boat or virtually any other machine with a charging system. This function is performed by the ignition switch in your car. Accessories will work with the ignition switch in the on position, but will cut out when the switch is advanced to the engine start position. The ignition switch is also cutting off power to the voltage regulator (which shuts down the alternator) while the engine is being started. (Wrong Does not apply to modern cars.)

In an aircraft, the alternator is usually turned on at the same time the master switch is turned on. This applies full power to the alternator field, since the voltage regulator is sensing the battery voltage (which is less than 13.8 volts). You then start the engine using the ignition switch. During the start, power is available to the alternator through the voltage regulator.

As the engine is being started the alternator is turning fast enough to produce some power. At the same time, however, the starter is drawing 200 to 300 amps. Most alternators can only sustain 60 to 70 amps -- 200 to 300 amps is equivalent to a dead short on the output of the alternator. This is a substantially overloaded situation, and the part most likely to fail will be the diode rectifier. (Does NOT apply to a IR - ND alternator)

Whole article here under "Know your charging system": http://www.nflite.com/

Click to expand...

This is why people are so confused between internally and externally regulated alternators. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

A BIG difference between (IR) internally regulated ND alternators and (ER) externally regulated one. He's talking about ER alternators when he talks about Plymouth Valiant or Piper Cherokees. He is NOT talking about a Nippondesnso with a microchip IC controlled internally regulated alternator.

It's incorrect when he says car's cut the alternator out during start; it's NOT true. The DRAIN of a (ND) alternator during start is a few milli-volts. Old alternators might try to pull 5 amps during start, and therefor Plymouth Valiants may have cut the alternator out so you could crank the engine. THIS IS 1960's and 1970's technology. The Japanese ND alternator is 1980's and 90's IC controlled technology. I don't know how to say it, but it's apples and oranges.

He is 100% wrong about turning the alternator ON after start. The thing this gentleman does not address is ND alternators, with a IR and microprocessor controlled logic functions. There's an IC chip with logic in there with a built-in SOFT START delay function. There are basically digital circuits and 100's of transistors in there. An old external regulator has three transistors and dumb (no logic). Modern IR alternators monitor load and temperature and actually can protect the alternator from overload! (It's a different ball game and old school folks get confused.)

It does not matter what you do with an external regulator, you can do what you want with the ON/OFF switch. You may save some amps for starting but that does not apply to a ND alternator that automatically comes on line softly with the IC chip control. DON'T OVER-RIDE THE AUTOMATIC CONTROL OF A ND.

Chrysler, Ford (prestolite) and Chevy (Delco) alternators can't compare to my Acura's 17 year old ND with 225,000 miles on it. This guy is thrilled to 100,000 miles in his Valiant? I changed Delcos on my 69 chevy with every other oil change.

He's talking about 1960's technology. He may love his Chrysler alternator but they are as big washing machines and weigh as much. They would not fit in a RV cowl. All alternators for cars with few exceptions, are internally regulated and have auto control of start up and shut down, even Ford, Chevy and Chrysler. Unfortunately they are just not as good as the ND's.

Go to National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), pronounced 'nits-ah', web site. You can see the reliability. The site tracks all, service letters, service bulletins, recalls, customer complaints and accidents from all vehicles, accessories or individual components (engine, transmission, electrical system). You'll FIND nothing on ND's, no recalls, service letters or complaints or minor ones peripherally related. Ford alternators are bursting into fire, and failing with poor reliability you have the Hitachi, Chrysler, Bosch and Delco.


Vibration, heat and electrical OVER LOAD, I agree those are factors. You should provide cooling air. You should not overload any alternator 100% (common wisdom says about 2/3rds continuous max). Vibration? Not much we can do about the shake-a-lycoming.