Flap switch on the stick ??? Can it kill you?

I like the idea of having the flap switch on the stick grip, but I have a concern. I am wondering if an unintended deployment of the flaps is more likely. It could ruin your day if you accidently nudged the switch at high speed.

If you have the flap switch on the panel, it would seem to be far less likely to unintentionally deploy the flaps.

Is it possible to arrange to have the flaps only deploy at airspeeds less than 100 mph? There must be some way to accomplish that.

Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony Johnson
RV8A "badboy"
N12TJ reserved
Orlando

microEncoder in series with flap motor

I'm not building yet, so this is totally speculation. With that caveat, all of the EFIS sytems and the microEncoder have digital airspeed input and displays. The microEncoder from RMI can be configured to give you a blinking light or audible tone at Vne, Vso, Vno, etc. That means it must be capable of supplying charge when certain parameters are met. Maybe that could be adapted to wiring the Encoder in series with the flap motor (probably the wrong engineering terms, you get the idea). Good luck. Let us know what you find out.

Blue skies,

It's all in the switch design

tonyjohnson said:

I like the idea of having the flap switch on the stick grip, but I have a concern. I am wondering if an unintended deployment of the flaps is more likely. It could ruin your day if you accidently nudged the switch at high speed.

If you have the flap switch on the panel, it would seem to be far less likely to unintentionally deploy the flaps.

Is it possible to arrange to have the flaps only deploy at airspeeds less than 100 mph? There must be some way to accomplish that.

Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tony Johnson
RV8A "badboy"
N12TJ reserved
Orlando

Click to expand...

Tony,

I see what you're saying, but IMHO you'd be adding complexity that could come back to bite you -- adding failure points, etc.

You mentioned an accidental "nudge," which is conceivable I guess, but all a nudge is gonna do is deploy the flap a degree or two. That shouldn't really do diddly on these airplanes, even up near redline. I would worry about prolonged actuation, if you want to worry at all.

If you're concerned, I would think it would be much easier, more straightforward, cheaper, and more reliable simply to have a "switch guard" of sorts on the stick-mounted flap switch. I personally think switch design is where the solution lies, rather than complex (or simple to some people) electronic devices. If you use a toggle that sticks up, you're likely to bump it or catch it on something. But use a low-profile "slider" or coolie rocker style, and you're not likely to catch it.

I have my flap switch on the stick grip and have not ever inadvertently deployed flaps. I love having the flap switch there. Great for HOTAS during critical transitions. It is the flat rocker style...roll it forward and back. Nothing sticking up to get caught, and it takes a fair amount of thumb force to displace it.

Years ago, flying a Mooney, I folded a sectional and kind of flopped it down onto the yoke. Hm...what's that weird buffeting? Why is the plane slowing down and the S-tec is asking for up trim? Oh yeah, I smacked the speed brake deploy switch. The switch was a momentary pushbutton. Stupid design. It does happen, but switch design is the most important factor IMHO.

)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com

flap switch on stick

I agree with Dan. Flap switch on stick is definitely handy. Mine sticks up (Infinity stick grip), but have never had a problem accidentally deploying flaps. It just doesn't happen. If you bump the switch hard enough with some object, hard enough to deploy the flaps, then you've bumped the stick hard enough to REALLY feel it.
Mark

Flap switch on grip

On my old RV-4 I had a G207 MAC grip with an optional switch #4 toggle switch (on/off/on-mom) to control Flaps. It also had the elevator trim and PTT.

http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgrips.html

Even though I am not doing the stick grip flap/trim thing on my new RV-7, my experience was very good with the flap switch on the grip. It was handy in a RV-4 with the left hand on the throttle and right on stick. I never had an inadvertent activation of the flaps, but did hit the trim switches once or twice. They were located on the top and flush. The trim buttons did not take much to push them. The PTT was on the fwd edge of the grip top and protruded, so I would press it unintentionally on occasion.

My new RV-7 project I will install the flap and trim toggle or rocker switch on the panel to simplify the installation but not for safety. The side by side there is more room to place the flap and trim switches near the throttles, so I'll fly left hand and operate the throttle, flaps, trip and radio with the right.

With a big Flap toggle on the panel I don't need to worry about a relay deck and a bunch of small wires going to the grip. Using the standard MAC rocker switch, the trim will be mounted near the throttle on the panel for easy access by touch. The PTT will be in the stick and a 2nd in the panel as a back-up or for the co-pilot. The advantage is easier to wire and cost less than a fancy stick grip full of switches.

The flap toggle from MAC is fairly long, so I cut it down to be very short, just a stub. To activate it I would put my thumb on top and push it aft to extend the flaps. Center was off and pushing forward would retract it. The aft down position was momentary and the fwd up position would lock. So after landing I could just push it forward and let it go to retract the flaps. One single limit switch was used to keep the motor from running in the up position. I would normally leave it in the center off position.

I think there is some "human factor" concern, but if the switch is not sticking too far out it should be OK. Also a flap motor running light is a good idea. I can tell you if you are going fast and the flaps start coming out you will know it. A flap circuit breaker that is easy to get to would make a good emergency override disconnect if the flap switch fails in the down position. If you want to get fancy you could put a pressure switch in the pitot line calabrated to approx Vfe (100mph). This would avoid extending them at high speed but would require a relay and a more complex system.

Cheers George

trying to decide what and where on stick

Good stuff. I had not considered a flap control on the stick. Hum.

Right now, I'm just thinking about going with trim on coolie hat, PPT top right, radio flip flop, auto pilot disconnect and scrubbed the TXP ident.

What else are you guys putting on the stick? What am I missing? What are you putting on the co-pilot stick? Have any suggestions for small cannon plugs so I can remove the co pilot stick?

I'm using the CH products stick grip.
thanks,

mark

www.pbase.com/mark2nite

In the RV-8, we are having aileron and elevator trim on the Hat, (Infinity grip) flaps on the left side of the hat, (momentary down precludes inadvertant actuation), fuel pump switch on the right of Hat, PTT on the trigger, A/P disconnect on the thumb switch, and starter sw on the pinky switch. On the taildraggers, you want the stick held right back on startup. The start switch on the stick allows this while the left hand jockeys the throttle. A small ring around the starter switch will prevent accidental actuation in flight. A diode from the alternator can be installed in the starter circuit that precludes actuation after engine start.

If you get decent switches, inadvertant actuation will not be a problem, especially if the switch is inset a bit.

Cheers, Pete

High speed flap deployment

If you want to get fancy you could put a pressure switch in the pitot line calabrated to approx Vfe (100mph). This would avoid extending them at high speed but would require a relay and a more complex system.

Click to expand...

I read somewhere that this might not be a good idea. Consider for a moment if something goes badly wrong, and you really want to slow down. You're not worried about the airplane, you're worried about your hide. Deploying the flaps may be a big to help you. Of course, if you break off one of the flaps, and end up with an asymetrical flap condition, things could become worse.

I'm a bit worried about accidental flap deployment since I have the "FPS" system. This means that a little bump on the flap switch will give me 10 degrees or so of flaps. I've decided to have a flaps on/off switch on the panel for the times when I am cruising. It's next to my trim on/off switch, so if I have one of those extremely rare but dreaded "runaways", then I can just hit them both quickly and cut power to both the flaps and the trim system.

if you're worried stick a buzzer in the cct

If you think it is a real concern (accidental flap deployment) then stick a buzzer in the circuit. Very simple, but probably very annoying for most of the time.

I am going for a flap switch on the stick, and have a gizmo (can't think of the name) that does either full or partial deployment on one touch. Suppose I could have a panel mounted disconnect for cruising, but then why not just go for a panel mounted flap switch?

Actually for a laugh you could get a voice synthesiser wired in that says "deploying flaps" when the motor is running, or even better says "we're all gonna die" when the stall warner activates

Peter

I'd suggest going back to basics and evaluating how often you would use one of the possible stick-installed functions.

Trim? Often, so put it on the stick.
Radio? Very often, so put it on the stick.
Transponder Ident? Rarely, so do it at the radio.
Flaps? Only when landing, so put it on the panel.

These are just my opinions and what I will be doing. The only things I want on the stick are functions that I know I will be using multiple times during a flight. Now if only I could figure a way to put the Fuel Selecter valve on the stick...

My feeling is that the more switches and levers and buttons you put in one place close to each other, the better the possibility of becoming confused about them in a panic moment (which IS going to happen at some point).

Flap flops?

I installed an Infinity Joystick grip and the flap switch is toggled on the right top area of the grip. You have to extend your thumb to reach it. Mine is a momentary switch offering an infinite number of settings. With this arrangement, I really cannot see how one can accidentially deploy the flaps. Even if you did somehow bump it, wired with a momentary switch you might goose 2 or 3 degrees of deployment. Not a big deal. We are all different, and I feel comfortable fine tuning an infinite number of flap settings from 0 to 40 degrees while adjusting pitch trim via the "china hat" switch with the same thumb while never taking my hand off the grip.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"

Hotas

Highflight said:

Flaps? Only when landing, so put it on the panel.

Click to expand...

The time when you are closest to the ground is the time when your attention outside the plane needs to be the greatest-- particularly in a go-around or emergency situtation. Having the flaps on the stick (or throttle) makes sense because it allows you to stay focused out of the plane AND have a hand on both controls.

Having the flaps on the stick also simplifies things in the pattern, one less thing to dilute your attention. If you do any formation flying it is really nice to have flaps on the stick so you don't have to move a hand around and loose position during formation landings.

I read on the odessey site that they recommend putting the starter(!) on the stick to simplify emergency procedures! The scenario they layout is compelling.

My feeling is that the more switches and levers and buttons you put in one place close to each other, the better the possibility of becoming confused about them in a panic moment (which IS going to happen at some point).

Click to expand...

The military developed HOTAS (hands on throttle & stick) systems because they found the opposite to be true. I didn't find any research to back this but you will find that all modern military aircraft have many controls on the stick/throttle to enable the pilot to stay focused. I have a bunch of controls on my stick and find it to be intuitive and transitioned quickly to it. I suspect that after a few hours in the plane you will not have any problem finding the flap buttons.

Chuck

Flap/trim switch location

If you position the flap and/or the trim switches near the throttle you can still have HOTAS? Activation of the flap and trim switch by feel, without moving hand completely off of throttle or looking can be done with good switch placement. Granted it is not as cool looking as a stick grip with switches sticking out all over like a military fighter.

As far as a pressure switch to disable the flap extension circuit above 100mph, this switch will be fail passive. If it fails open than you you have no flaps, not critical. If it fails closed you loose high speed protection but than you would have to also have the flap switch hit to move the flaps. The pressure switch is more likely to cause the flaps to not deploy than deploy on their own.

George

Mustang said:

In the RV-8, we are having aileron and elevator trim on the Hat, (Infinity grip) flaps on the left side of the hat, (momentary down precludes inadvertant actuation), fuel pump switch on the right of Hat, PTT on the trigger, A/P disconnect on the thumb switch, and starter sw on the pinky switch. On the taildraggers, you want the stick held right back on startup. The start switch on the stick allows this while the left hand jockeys the throttle. A small ring around the starter switch will prevent accidental actuation in flight. A diode from the alternator can be installed in the starter circuit that precludes actuation after engine start.

Click to expand...

Wow, that's a lot of switches to put on a stick... too many for my tiny brain to comprehend anyway; I'd get 'em confused and hit the wrong switch at the wrong time. Plus, too complex of an installation for me. Wanna know how many switches are going on my stick? Just one, a PTT. Flap switch? It's on the panel, just above the throttle quadrant; should be able to actuate it with my thumb and still have my hand on the throttle. Same for the fuel pump switch. Starter on the stick? Dunno why... I have 140 or so hrs in taildraggers, never had a start switch on the stick and yet never nosed one over while starting. That's why one hand is on the throttle while starting, keep it from revving and going over on it's nose. So what about an emergency inflight re-start? Not too sure about the need for that either... in my roughly 5,000 hrs recip time, I've never had the need to engage a starter in flight.

Now it's just my opinion, but there comes a point when there's just too much stuff crammed onto a stick grip... and how much of that do you really need? Even the Boeings I fly for a living have but 3 switches on the yokes; PTT, A/P disconnect, elevator trim. Works good, lasts a long time...

John

Video game generation

Now it's just my opinion, but there comes a point when there's just too much stuff crammed onto a stick grip... and how much of that do you really need? Even the Boeings I fly for a living have but 3 switches on the yokes; PTT, A/P disconnect, elevator trim. Works good, lasts a long time...

Click to expand...

Those that have spent a lot of time playing video games will probably disagree with you! Also, in the Boeings, you've always got a helper to deploy the flaps.

Check this out: http://www.rayallencompany.com/products/stickgripsG3.html

I have installed the same. Elevator trim and radio frequencies in the hat switch, autopilot disconnect, flap switch and PTT. All other panel switches and knobs that are used during flight can be operated with my right hand.
Not flying yet but getting close.

BTW, Van's has a flap switch in the stick on their 9-A.


RV-9 90869

Hi all,

I bought the Flap Positioning System from Van's. A bit pricey at $200 or so, but all I have to do is flip the switch and it automatically makes stops at 10, 20, and 40 degrees without looking or holding the switch. Flick it the other way, and it retracts the flaps and stops the flap motor when it reaches full up.

I put the switch on the extreme left of the panel just above the throttle on my -8. I can leave my hand (or most of it ;-) on the throttle and work the switch with my thumb. Sort of HOTAS...

Cheers

Mark

jbDC9 said:

Even the Boeings I fly for a living have but 3 switches on the yokes; PTT, A/P disconnect, elevator trim. Works good, lasts a long time...
John

Click to expand...

My RV doesn't have room for a copilot like your Boeing does!

Chuck

chuck said:

My RV doesn't have room for a copilot like your Boeing does!

Click to expand...

True, but really, it's not about needing the stuff close at hand on the stick, I think it's more of a gadget junkie gotta have it type thing. Perhaps a better example than a 737 is my freight dog days... Cessna 310Rs hauling checks, at night, in virtually every weather condition imaginable; clouds, fog, ice, rain, thunderstorms, nasty turbulence... single pilot with no autopilot. Yes, it kept me quite busy at times, but never did I dream about how much better it'd be if I had all that stuff on the yoke. I flew that gig for 2400 hrs with a lonely PTT switch and never had a problem with it. But then again, that's just me... so does that make me an anti-gadget junkie?

Tsquare

Some fighter aircraft have a trigger on the stick for a gun. It normally has a guard on it to prevent unintentional discharges. The same could work for flaps.

jbDC9 said:

I flew that gig for 2400 hrs with a lonely PTT switch and never had a problem with it. But then again, that's just me... so does that make me an anti-gadget junkie?

Click to expand...

I shouldn't take the bait but I will . That's sort of like saying you've been driving a car for 20 years without a seatbelt and haven't had any problems.

If you are going to put electric flaps in an RV I would suggest that control from the stick (or throttle) has reduced workload and is safer on average than control from elsewhere.

As a matter of fact it isn't even a 'gaget'. Same types of parts, same number of parts. It's not really standard but it's hardly a gaget.

Chuck

In answer to the Boeing pilot, well, me too! Operated Boeings most of my life without too many buttons on the yoke. Also played a lot of Computer simulations for dogfighting. The Infinity joystick mimics the Thrustmaster (computer) joystick exactly, which mimics a military joystick.

Right now I fly a "4" once a week or so. When you start that baby up it just about jumps right off the ground, which is why I like the stick held right back when starting. This "4" has only a PTT on the stick and so when I actuate the starter switch with my right hand and jockey the throttle with my left, the stick is kind of free floating. That is why I decided to put the start switch on the stick grip so that I can hold it back while pushing the start button.

The other stuff on the stick will let me stay heads up in the circuit, flicking the fuel pump on, and deploying the flaps while trimming the elevator. The A/P disconnect is in a similar position to the Boeing and the PTT also.

I also like using the fuel pump for startup also which makes the grip switch handy. Consider that I will be basically HOTAS in the circuit with the exception of actuating the carb heat, which hardly anybody does on the Lycomings. The left hand will be busy enough with mixture, pitch, and throttle in the circuit and the Infinity grip will lighten the load for the right hand and keep the eyes outside of the airplane.

Cheers, Pete

Buttons on Stick

You should be aware of the operating buttons on the stick. If you are not , too bad. Today everyone touches stuff. We need someone that will touch them. A small opsie can kill you dead. When every one heeds these warnings no one will get hurt. A flap button on the stick is good. So is a push to talk button and a machine gun trigger! Imagine what some one will do with a gun trigger if they have problems with a flap switch.
Lee

______________________________________________________

Back when I was 21 , I knew it all!

G207 Stick Grip

I am wiring up my ray allen G207 Stick Grip
and have also installed the alieron and elevator electric trim switches on the lower pannel
I was wondering if those can be wired up with
the rocker switches without causing a problem with
having two controls, (if the stick grip fails I still have
both trims on the pannel) has anyone done this ?
that way the right side still has the trims in reach but my left side has them on the stick..

Danny..

Been there. Had a momentary switch on my infinity stick grip and was reading a flight guide while doing about 180MPH. Inadvertently hit the flap switch and about 10 degrees came in before I realized it and my wife about lost her mind when the aircraft pitched up and shuttered a little bit.

Other than that, it was no big deal. I liked having the switch there, but you use it so little, I wouldn't have it there again. I just put electric flaps in my -4, and put the switch on the bulkhead beside the panel.

Everyone seems to want to add complexity to their solution, whatever that may be.

In my -9 I put the carb heat just to the left of the throttle quadrant and the flap switch to the right. I can place my hand on the quadrant, toggle the flaps with my fingers and keep my thumb on the carb heat while pushing the throttle and mixture full forward for a go-around or simply pull the throttle back for landing. Either way, my hand is both on the throttle, carb heat, and flap switch.

Sort of the simple man's HOTAS and no worries about bumping the flap switch in flight.

No flaps on the stick

I am not planning on flaps on the stick just up / down/ left /right trim, my question was about using
the reg rocker switches in conjunction with the
trim buttons on the stick.. wire question I suppose,
seen a few people use only the stick grip buttons and some only the rocker switches on the pannel but not both together.. does it work ?

Danny..

flaps

regarding flaps.

I have extended my flaps above the mechanical, allowable speed five times in 80 hrs. and popped the curcuit breaker, that's how I can tell. (I turn base and drop flaps, twice it happened at night when I'm looking out the window not at airspeed)

As recently as yesterday following someone in formation to land. It's always close to 100kts. anyway. But I'm glad I have resettable (sp?) P & B curcuit breakers. Or I would have been fishing around for an auto fuse in front of DanC's hangar yesterday after saying goodbye.

FWIW

edit-- circuit

Flap circuit breaker

mark manda said:

I have extended my flaps above the mechanical, allowable speed five times in 80 hrs. and popped the curcuit breaker, ... But I'm glad I have resettable (sp?) P & B curcuit breakers. Or I would have been fishing around for an auto fuse in front of DanC's hangar yesterday after saying goodbye.

Click to expand...

Mark, what size circuit breaker are you using? Just curious how much current that flap motor can pull. Thanks.

godspeed said:

I am not planning on flaps on the stick just up / down/ left /right trim, my question was about using
the reg rocker switches in conjunction with the
trim buttons on the stick.. wire question I suppose,
seen a few people use only the stick grip buttons and some only the rocker switches on the pannel but not both together.. does it work ?

Danny..

Click to expand...

Yes, I have a hat switch for elevator & ailerons on the Ray Allen stick, and rocker switches on the passenger side. These are wired through a Ray Allen relay.

thanks

I was hoping I didn't have to buy the relay.. guess I better order it ..

thanks again..

Danny..

no relay install

Check this Ray Allen pdf for information
on mounting the rocker switch with a grip switch using just a couple of diodes.

On the topic of Flap switch location and HOTAS. I was thinking about putting full duplex controls on the sticks (flaps and trim at least) with a kill switch on the panel, so you could have EITHER the pilot OR the Copilot active. This is because I may fly out of either seat, and I don't want my passenger fiddling with the flaps/trim and stuff when I'm flying.

Also consider putting the starter and primer (electric primer for FI engines, just a momentary fuel pump on switch really) on the THROTTLE not the stick, you wouldn't have your hand on it in regular flight, but still can do HOTAS for starts and stuff. People are talking about all kinds of different functions on the sticks, what I'm looking for would be:

PTT
Flaps
Trim (both)
Ident
perhaps WigWag/Landing toggle (the land lights would be on/off with one switches on the panel, the stick switch would simply control what mode they are in.)

Just a bunch of ideas I'm working on in my mind. Call back in a few years to see the final layout of my aeroplane....

I have the flap and trim switches on the top of my stick and have the bad habit of resting the base of my thumb on the stick top while flying.

On my first few flights during climb I would in advertently lower the flaps.

Now my pre takeoff checklist includes pulling the flap Circuit breaker and descent CL includes pushing it back in.

It is nice having it on the stick during landing.

On my current project I am putting trim in a coolie hat on the stick and flaps on the throttle.