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  #1  
Old 09-09-2017, 02:12 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Thumbs up Mike Seager FP pattern diagram in KNOTS

Just to add to previous postings of Mike Seagers neat handout on pattern speeds/power settings for Fixed Pitch RVs.

I took the previously posted diagram and turned mph to kts to match my RV-6A instrumentation.



As soon as I've fixed my tank leak I'm certain this method will vastly improve my patterns.
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Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ

Last edited by az_gila : 09-09-2017 at 02:15 AM.
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Old 09-09-2017, 10:42 AM
control control is offline
 
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While I am sure this method gives a great result, I am a bit surprised that no consideration looks to be given, to fitting in with other traffic.

In my area, I and other instructors tend to try and find a solution using "normal" speeds unless it is really unsuitable for the AC.

We try to promote 90knots on downwind, 80 on base, 70 on final until over the fence when we adopt to the individual AC. For IFR we try to stay at 100knots or above until minimums... all in an effort to have a smooth and predictable behavior around our airfields
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  #3  
Old 09-09-2017, 11:09 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by control View Post
While I am sure this method gives a great result, I am a bit surprised that no consideration looks to be given, to fitting in with other traffic.

In my area, I and other instructors tend to try and find a solution using "normal" speeds unless it is really unsuitable for the AC.

We try to promote 90knots on downwind, 80 on base, 70 on final until over the fence when we adopt to the individual AC. For IFR we try to stay at 100knots or above until minimums... all in an effort to have a smooth and predictable behavior around our airfields
I'm surprised that you think the 90/80/70 "normal speeds" would affect the pattern that much unless it is crowded with multiple planes. The speeds listed by Mike Seager are basically less than 5 kts different from your "standards" and would only affect the time in a compact pattern by seconds. If other traffic is forcing a "bomber style pattern" then yes, adjust speeds to fit.

Flying my Tiger I have had instructors use the 90/80/70 numbers and 1/3, 2/3 full flap for the three pattern legs and found that puts a lot of work on the pilot if he/she is making a tight pattern. You end up chasing airspeed and trim with little time for things to settle on the base leg.

The Grumman owners group (AYA) have a pilot check out program and they taught a two speed and half-full flaps technique quite similar to the Mike Seager pattern presented. It's less work for the pilot and allows more concentration on the runway and getting to a stabilized final approach.

With less than 20 landings in my O-360 FP RV-6A I've had trouble slowing down and getting a nice level downwind leg. I'm sure following the numbers in the figure will give me a much better pattern for my next flight after my tank leaks are sealed.
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Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ

Last edited by az_gila : 09-09-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 09-09-2017, 02:52 PM
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snopercod snopercod is offline
 
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I know this is an RV forum, but I just can't help posting this fun video. There I was at 1,500' AGL (my usual pattern altitude), abeam the numbers when tower requested a short approach. I only have 20 degrees of flaps, too!

Going Down
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:01 PM
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mike newall mike newall is offline
 
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Hmmmm, seems to be about 100kts out

We have to do nasty overhead joins, so when it is quiet, I normally enter the overhead at 2000' around 190kts with 23/23 set, back off to 12/23 crosswind descending to 1000', by end of downwind it is back at 100kts ready for base and leave the prop at 2300 to touchdown.

Love that MT 3 blade prop - works a treat......

I'll get my coat
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  #6  
Old 09-09-2017, 05:18 PM
RedneckRoyalty RedneckRoyalty is offline
 
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Rectangular traffic pattern? Why do you people still fly that way ;(
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Old 09-09-2017, 05:35 PM
2johns 2johns is offline
 
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Exactly! At our airport a normal approach is not always possible. "Keep your speed up - you have two F16's behind you on a 5 mile final" or "extend your downwind for traffic" or "make a short approach" or "beware of wake turbulence from 737 landing ahead of you". Makes every landing interesting.
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:19 PM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2johns View Post
Exactly! At our airport a normal approach is not always possible. "Keep your speed up - you have two F16's behind you on a 5 mile final" or "extend your downwind for traffic" or "make a short approach" or "beware of wake turbulence from 737 landing ahead of you". Makes every landing interesting.
The picture and link was for a 'small' non-towered airport. Friends who have checked out with Mike Seager talk about the local small airports he uses.

For all of the local AZ towered airports I've landed at - including mixing with the F-16s at TUS - I can't remember when the tower actually requested all three legs of a standard pattern. It's a different case, in general just follow what the tower requests.

Square diagrams don't actually come out that way in practice. Not saying this is good, but here is one example of my pattern at our airpark. A longer final on a no-wind day. For scale the two major N-S roads are 1 mile apart. It certainly doesn't look square.



With reference to my previous posting on doing too much 'stuff' on the base leg, the time from the start of the base leg turn to being lined up on the runway is a mere 42 seconds.

PS Dynon and savvyanalysis.com does a great data logging job.
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Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:24 PM
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snopercod snopercod is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedneckRoyalty View Post
Rectangular traffic pattern? Why do you people still fly that way ;(
I don't any more. There was a knock-down-drag-out discussion a couple years ago on the Lancair forum about that very thing. The rectangular pattern / do what people expect / 3 degree glide slope / we've always done it that way faction lost in the end. The 1,500' pattern / rounded base / steep approach faction won me over simply because I can still make the runway if the engine quits on final.
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Old 09-09-2017, 06:43 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snopercod View Post
I know this is an RV forum, but I just can't help posting this fun video. There I was at 1,500' AGL (my usual pattern altitude), abeam the numbers when tower requested a short approach. I only have 20 degrees of flaps, too!

Going Down
OK wait. Cool video, but are you showing your youth? I think my 1st memory was by Beck. (Jeff, that is.) But the original was even farther back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnyJ1D3yb7w

And thanks for the nudge; I never knew that Larry Raspberry played with Don Nix.

Charlie
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