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NASA PAV Challenge: $250,000 for RV builder

B

Brien A. Seeley M.D.

I'm New Here
I noted that you are flying an RV. Our CAFE Foundation tested Van's prototype in 2003 and found it to be a superb aircraft. In fact, it served as the model for what a good all-around GA aircraft could achieve when we designed the NASA PAV Challenge.

CAFE is hosting the $250,000 NASA Personal Air Vehicle Challenge on August 4-12, 2007. This will be the largest cash prize ever awarded to general aviation!!!

The RV's are the front-runner to win this contest, at present. Therefore, we invite you to recruit a team (expert consultants are available soon at www.cafefoundation.org), modify your aircraft as needed, and enter the competition to win $250,000. There is no gimmick here. The rules are posted on the website and are fair for all. You can ask Van about it. He knows that CAFE is an honest and fair non-profit organization.

We can only accept 16 teams into the competition. Please download the rules at
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/pav_pavchallenge_rules.php

Fill out the Notice of Interest Letter on the final page to reserve your slot in the competition. Fax it to: 707-544-2734

Good luck
Brien Seeley

Brien A. Seeley M.D., President
CAFE Foundation
www.cafefoundation.org
[email protected]
Office: 707-544-0141
Home: 707-526-3925
Cell: 707-484-8721
CAFE HQ: 707-545-2233
 
Was just looking at their website... they have a list of "key features of PAVs (Personal Air Vehicle). One of them is:

Able to be flown by anyone with a driver's license
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THAT is frightening. I personally think may people holding driver's licenses can't even drive CARS safely!
 
I didn't know the Cafe Foundation was still active. I had visited their website to read the aircraft performance reports - and saw that it had been 4 or 5 years since the last one. Interesting...
 
competition requirements

I have not read the rules in great detail but I did see this competition advertised in one of the aviation magazines I see a few months ago. From what I could glean from that article it appeared to me the restrictions on the competition were so stringent I cannot see how any RV could qualify. For that matter it sounded like a competition for some well organized corporate teams or perhaps a university engineering team. I am not sure an everyday builder bloke like me could compete very well in this competition.
 
A waste of everyone's time.

The competition occurs in 6 months (it appears NASA only gave CAFE the go-ahead last November - a lead time of only 9 months!). That's not much time to assemble a team, find funding, invent, design, build, test, fine tune, and get FAA airworthiness certification for an aircraft incorporating any innovations.
 
CAFE answers the previous posts on NASA PAV Prize:

The NASA Personal Air Vehicle Challenge is for real, not an April Fool's joke. The event will be held every summer for 5 years. NASA intends it to be the "X Prize" for general aviation to advance light aircraft design, and they place extra importance on it in light of the recent drastic cutbacks in the NASA aeronautics budget. Prize amounts increase annually, as follows: 2007: $250,000, 2008:$300,000, 2009: $400,000, 2010:$500,000 and 2011:$550,000.

The only catch is that the contest gets more difficult each year (as it should). A team from NASA and CAFE carefully set the qualifying requirements to be, yes, stringent, but within reach of the performances already documented by CAFE's long-running Aircraft Performance Reports (APR) program. The APR program was funded by EAA, and was discontinued when Scott Spangler took over EAA's publications because he felt that CAFE's APR reports were, essentially, too 'mathy' and beyond the broader interests of Sport Aviation's readership. Thus, CAFE's funding from EAA Oshkosh ended in 2003, and as an all-volunteer non-profit educational foundation, it has subsisted since then on contributions from its own Board members as well as from Van and Dr. Paul MacCready, among other visionaries. NOTE: NASA provides the cash prizes and gives ZERO dollars to CAFE.

The final NASA approval for the contest rules agreement came just a couple of months ago, but it is now a GO for all 5 years. That this leaves little time to prepare for the Aug 4 2007 event, and, coupled with the ease of winning the first year, should prompt RV flyers to get busy, make the mods needed to qualify, and register for the event. There will only be 16 teams accepted and we already have 11 Letters of Intent from a variety of interesting homebuit designs, though none from Boeing, Northrop or Honda (yet)

The current rules for the event are available at: www.cafefoundation.org
These rules are being modified to be a bit more lenient in noise levels and MPG requirements, reflecting more recent information obtained by CAFE, and those revisions should be posted within a week or two.

The prototype RV-9A flight test data at CAFE showed it to obtain 30 MPG at 170 mph (way lean of peak EGT) and to qualify for the NASA PAV Challenge on every qualifying metric except noise level. Some builders are already looking at quiet props and special mufflers to fix that.

What are you waiting for?
Brien Seeley, President, CAFE Foundation
 
Yeah, so where is my time going to come from?

OK, great idea. Let's get all of america flying. To do this, we need a highly automated aircraft. So well automated anyone with a driver's license could fly in it.

It would seem to me that the RV-9 like airplane would need some advanced avionics that would allow it to use GPS and WAAS and all the present navaids to know exactly where it was and then integrate all of that into an automated flight control system that can get an airplane from one runway to another with minimal human interaction - all the human interaction would be to handle the radio and follow ATC directions about when to let the airplane fly. And, it should have some capablility for ATC to be able to remote control the airplane in an emergency. Believe it or not, I could do just this kind of avionics automation - by myself. Only a few problems though.

Where is my time going to come from? I need a year to do this - how am I going to find support for this effort? Also, I can do this in a year, but not if I have to try and follow DO-178B nonsense. And, I'd have to coordinate my efforts with someone who is building an RV-9 and able to modify it for the new flight control systems. I need two people to be building the airplane, and an electrical engineer or two to do the avionics hardware.And those people would need time off from their work as well.

Seems like a real cool thing to do - if you are independently wealthy and have unlimited time away from work. I'm not and I don't.

Just my two cents.

John Babrick
Avionics SW Guy
 
Stop complaining and enter!

Ok Folks,
Here we are constantly complaining about the poor use of our tax dollars, but here is a GOOD idea and we are calling it an April fools joke! This is a good idea with a positive result. We need to get behind this and jump in with both feet! I believe there are several RV-4's that would qualify in all but noise requirements now. The CAFE foundation is a scientific organization with the best possible credentials. The idea to "improve the breed" is valid and great positive press for US! Showing the Experimental Aviation community as positive force in the community instead of an attractive nuisance is one of the best ideas I've seen for years. I wish I was closer to flying. I'd sign on in a second. The fact that there are sagnifigant prizes for the best entries is just icing on the cake.
Bill Jepson
 
NASA PAV Challenge Prize hopefuls

It is absolutely possible for a light aircraft to be flown by high-tech electronics. UAVs do this and Subaru has a demonstrator that does pilot-less touch and goes in a Diamond Katana. We're going to ask them to bring it to the NASA PAV Challenge as a side show.
The amazing statistic from NASA is that flights with student pilots that have CFIs aboard have a lower fatal accident rate than the airlines! This has prompted a serious corrollary effort at the CAFE Foundation to grow what we call the eCFI.

CAFE is assembling a list known as the eCFI list, a list-serve of people with the smarts and interest to network into building the "electronic Certificated Flight Instructor", a homebuilt electronic crewmember that will help the pilot. The list already has an amazing brain trust of DARPA and NASA people signed on. It will be accessible from the CAFE website.

CAFE will also host a list of PAV "Consultants" who are experts in aeronautics, engines, prop, low noise, high lift devices, avionics, etc. and are willing (some for a fee) to assist those of you who are forming PAV Challenge teams in getting your vehicle ready to win the big money. Visit: www.cafefoundation.org for more.
 
Dan should slap some mufflers on his -7 with a different prop and go pick up the prize money... :D
 
I looked at this for a while and have been trying to think of ways to do it with my RV-10 when I finish it. The only problem for the -10 is the stall speed, which has to be 50 MPH for the contest.
 
Brien A. Seeley M.D. said:
It is absolutely possible for a light aircraft to be flown by high-tech electronics. UAVs do this and Subaru has a demonstrator that does pilot-less touch and goes in a Diamond Katana. We're going to ask them to bring it to the NASA PAV Challenge as a side show.
The amazing statistic from NASA is that flights with student pilots that have CFIs aboard have a lower fatal accident rate than the airlines! This has prompted a serious corrollary effort at the CAFE Foundation to grow what we call the eCFI.

CAFE is assembling a list known as the eCFI list, a list-serve of people with the smarts and interest to network into building the "electronic Certificated Flight Instructor", a homebuilt electronic crewmember that will help the pilot. The list already has an amazing brain trust of DARPA and NASA people signed on. It will be accessible from the CAFE website.

CAFE will also host a list of PAV "Consultants" who are experts in aeronautics, engines, prop, low noise, high lift devices, avionics, etc. and are willing (some for a fee) to assist those of you who are forming PAV Challenge teams in getting your vehicle ready to win the big money. Visit: www.cafefoundation.org for more.
Click to expand...

How do you get involved with the eCFI list?
 
When I glanced at the reqts, I ascertained that the "vehicle" had to be DOT road worthy for at least short distances (to drive to nearby airports) AND be able to fly quietly at near 200 mph speeds AND get 25mpg AND have a stall speed of less than 50mph AND have short takeoff distances AND long range capability to be competitive. The electronics stuff is likely the easy part.

To get thru the first hurdle, an RV probably needs some way to steer a powered front wheel (implies a clutch and possibly a transmission), foldable wings, and have stronger brakes than currently provided. I'm not so sure any aircraft is able to achieve 200 mph @ 25mpg, without the weight/complexity of the other stuff. The contest will surely be interesting.
 
PAV Rules clarified

The PAVs do not have to be roadable, they only have to go 132 mph in cruise, and the MPG for 2 seaters is being lowered to about 23 MPG. Previous poster needs to carfefully re-read the rules.
 
A different take ...

rtry9a said:
When I glanced at the reqts, I ascertained that the "vehicle" had to be DOT road worthy for at least short distances (to drive to nearby airports) AND be able to fly quietly at near 200 mph speeds AND get 25mpg AND have a stall speed of less than 50mph AND have short takeoff distances AND long range capability to be competitive. The electronics stuff is likely the easy part.

To get thru the first hurdle, an RV probably needs some way to steer a powered front wheel (implies a clutch and possibly a transmission), foldable wings, and have stronger brakes than currently provided. I'm not so sure any aircraft is able to achieve 200 mph @ 25mpg, without the weight/complexity of the other stuff. The contest will surely be interesting.
Click to expand...
Not what I got from the requirements.

You get points or deductions so to speak depending on the roadability which would help you get to the final destination point. If you have to land at the "big airport", they factor in time etc. for all you have to do to get to the destination via a car for example.

Also there are different categories of "take-off" capability as I saw it. From Vertical Take-Off and Landing (VTOL) to "Conventional" Take-Off and Landing (CTOL) with stuff in between. You get more or less points bepending on what class you are in and how well you do.

A slow roadable plane might end up with the same points as a really fast non-roadable plane.

Just my take on the "rules". I am sure Brian will kick in with the "facts".

James
 
I think Spangler is gone from Sport Aviation. It would be nice to have CAFE reports supported again. They are some of the best articles ever in the magazine. Better "mathed up" than dumbed down.

Mike Bell
 
You're correct- how could I have missed the buried contradiction in the 20 pages of contest rule details? I did key in on definitions, FAQs, and the scoring.

The references to roadability had an If qualifier but the implication I had by the number of references and definition of PAV is that roadability was a part of the preferred design package.

From the PAV definition:
"PAVs are designed to land at small airports in residential areas. After landing, if your PAV is "roadable," you quickly fold its wings. Then you drive it off the airport and onto the streets to your destination."

The rules did state: If roadable, the PAV has to meet mass production DOT rules for its type (automobile).

Roadability got 10 extra points in the scoring, but only 5 points if 25 mph. What does that imply?

Ill take your note about the change with mileage limits as truth- the rules specify otherwise. I did notice that the contest mileage limit was at economy cruise, which is certainly doable, but the other data did suggest that the whole idea was to produce cheap and easy to operate 200mph people mover. Id guess meeting minimums wont cut it as far as competing for the prize- prizes are all for best of breed performance.

FWIW, One source of confusion I had with the pdf doc is that those rules differ from the stated goals of the program in the rest of the website. The whole idea is to produce a fast and easy to fly vehicle that can travel with reasonable mileage over 800 miles+, from door step to doorstep. Somewhat misleading. You were correct though, I should have memorized the whole rule book, even though my personal task was to figure what the **** the contest was all about without having to pick through all the fine print. My bad. :)

I still think the competition will be interesting to watch and see what is proposed and what is competitive.
 
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Didn't see the problems you did.

rtry9a said:
You're correct- how could I have missed the buried contradiction in the 20 pages of contest rule details? I did key in on definitions, FAQs, and the scoring.

The references to roadability had an If qualifier but the implication I had by the number of references and definition of PAV is that roadability was a part of the preferred design package.

From the PAV definition:
"PAVs are designed to land at small airports in residential areas. After landing, if your PAV is "roadable," you quickly fold its wings. Then you drive it off the airport and onto the streets to your destination."

The rules did state: If roadable, the PAV has to meet mass production DOT rules for its type (automobile).

Roadability got 10 extra points in the scoring, but only 5 points if 25 mph. What does that imply?

Ill take your note about the change with mileage limits as truth- the rules specify otherwise. I did notice that the contest mileage limit was at economy cruise, which is certainly doable, but the other data did suggest that the whole idea was to produce cheap and easy to operate 200mph people mover. Id guess meeting minimums wont cut it as far as competing for the prize- prizes are all for best of breed performance.

FWIW, One source of confusion I had with the pdf doc is that those rules differ from the stated goals of the program in the rest of the website. The whole idea is to produce a fast and easy to fly vehicle that can travel with reasonable mileage over 800 miles+, from door step to doorstep. Somewhat misleading. You were correct though, I should have memorized the whole rule book, even though my personal task was to figure what the **** the contest was all about without having to pick through all the fine print. My bad. :)

I still think the competition will be interesting to watch and see what is proposed and what is competitive.
Click to expand...

I don't understand the sarcasm. I read all 28 pages of rules and didn't get the impression at all that the plane had to be roadable. It should also be obvious that if a contestant wants to take his/her vehicle on the public roads that it has to pass DOT requirements. Sad that the legalities force the organizers to have to put that in. I read the 25mph part as if the vehicle is limited to 25 mph max it limits the roads it can be used on and as such required a slight penalty. A suggestion to those makeing a roadable vehicle, use 3 wheels max as it then qualifies as a motorcycle. (don't forget your helmet, a "requirement" in California) The rules are a CONTRACT and therefore they are FORCED into legaleease. Write your congressman. Back to the contest, the rules are really pretty straightforward. They are asking for hard to meet requirements as the contest is supposed to strech what is possible, not just to vex someone that already has an airplane. Another suggestion to the RV-10 owner (I'm building one too) enter as a 2 place plane and fly light. At a light weight weight a 10 could probably meet the 50 mph stall. Put a moped in the back so you don't waste time renting a car.
To sum it up start thinking about ways to make your plane quieter and more efficient instead of just like all the others. That is the point. RV's are already close, it is up to us to go the rest of the way. I talked to Mr. Sealy and they will make all these industry experts available to help at no cost as part of the deal. I'd enter just for the chance to talk to Roncz about how to improve my plane! He will be one of the experts available, there are others with similar pedigree, I was impressed with the list. There will be propeller experts to suggest quieter props the list goes on. There is serious money available here as well making it "worth it" to do a few mods to the plane, which should be generally helpful anyway.
Bill Jepson
 
What has happened to us!!!????? (Long post, so what!)

Kudos to Bill J and others who still have the spirit of innovation!!!!

I must say I was very disappointed when the first responses to this thread were full of negativism and skepticisim. I found it a bit ironic that so many BUILDERS were quick to say what can't be done. We are acting the just like the people who look at us sideways because we are building our own aircraft (who has'nt heard "You're building WHAT?", "You're going actually FLY that thing?!"). I thought if anyone had a "can-do" attitude it would be builders, especially RV buiders. Kinda sad, I must say.


As Bill J stated above, the purpose of any contest like this is to strech the boundries of what is and what "can be done" (anyone heard of the X-Prize?). It takes a special type of person to step up and say "Hey, I think I can do it better" or "Lemme give that a try". It used to be that same spirit could be found in nearly anyone, but now it seems everyone has been so watered down, they want everything handed to them. (Waahhh, I dont have time. Waahh, I dont have resources. Waahh, the reqs and specs are too hard. Wahhh, wahhh, wahhhh). Quite frankly, no one is really interested in what can't be done. To quote a saying I like to use: "If you can't do it, then get out of the way of the man who can."

I wasn't even alive when some of the most meaningful words (to me at least) were uttered but, has been ingrained in the very fabric of my life and my family's lives:
"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too." -John F. Kennedy

AND

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." -Teddy Roosevelt


When I first saw the news article on this contest a few weeks ago, I was excited. After reading the rules and specifications, I knew I probably would'nt be able to formally compete, but I could plan on building my bird with this contest in mind. There are many products we use now and many being introduced that will make participating this or other contests very viable for builders (especially RV builders) of all kinds. No one said it was going to be easy, but then again, nothing worth do ever is.



I, for one, would like to thank Mr. Brien A. Seeley, M.D., for having the courage and perhaps the the audacity, to dream and to believe in the human spirit that he would champion this contest and to invite us to participate.


Please note, this is not meant to be a personal attack against any particular person or group. This is merely a statement of my opinion and is not intended to threadjack, start a flamewar or divert attention from the original subject of thead. I guess its a roundabout way to say I am going to try to build my plane to compete in some way, shape or form.
 
SweetJellyDonut said:
Kudos to Bill J and others who still have the spirit of innovation!!!!

I must say I was very disappointed when the first responses to this thread were full of negativism and skepticisim. etc....[/I]
Click to expand...

Very well put. If you want to be on the cutting edge, doing things no one has ever done before, you must be prepared for a difficult journey and possible failure. Some thrive on it, and others just whine...

Now that my tiny, little company just got gobbled up, maybe I can get some funding to do something like this in a year or two.
 
NASA PAV contest MPGs

The revised values for MPGs for PAVs in the $250,000 NASA PAV Prize contest are:
2 seat PAVs must average 21.8 MPG on the CAFE 400 course
3 seat PAVs must average 17.5 MPG on the CAFE 400 course
4 seat PAVs must average 14.8 MPG on the CAFE 400 course
5 seat PAVs must average 13.0 MPG on the CAFE 400 course
6 seat PAVs must average 11.3 MPG on the CAFE 400 course

These revisions will soon be posted to the official rules. These MPGs are for a 400 mile 'race' over a closed course in Northern California with at least one mountaintop pylon at 7000 feet. So climbs, descents and pattern are included.
The best performing 2 seat aircraft ever tested by CAFE gets about 50 MPG at 160 mph, and the historic CAFE 400 race results were used to set these levels for the new competition. They are doable, but must be done using the new quiet prop and quiet mufflers necessitated by the PAV Noise Prize portion of the contest. Jack Norris has agreed to consult to help PAV Teams develop ultra-quiet props for their vehicles. He is at 1-818-360-1105. Smaller diameter with more blades can quiet the prop, but at some loss of efficiency.
Brien Seeley, CAFE Foundation President
 
Just an observation, no flame but it seems most of those all gung ho and spiritual about this competition have yet to build or test fly an airplane. Many of the sceptical just the opposite.
Tom
builder/pilot RV
Two time repeat offender, 2000+ in type
 
tin man said:
Just an observation, no flame but it seems most of those all gung ho and spiritual about this competition have yet to build or test fly an airplane. Many of the sceptical just the opposite.
Tom
builder/pilot RV
Two time repeat offender, 2000+ in type
Click to expand...

Very true. On the other hand, some of us that haven't built our own aircraft have tackled projects in their professional careers that make aircraft systems, including any avionic you could think to stick in there, look like tinker toys. This is a good thing. If it took 2 or 3 years @ 70 hours/week and a team of engineers to build an RV, this hobby would be doomed! :D

I see absolutely nothing in the CAFE goals that is unachievable or that will even drive state of the art (other than their eCFI initiative). Dan C's airplane already does something like 140mph on 6 gal/h (correct me here, Dan...it's just from memory). That's 23 mpg right there. The stall speed isn't that far off either. This is a straightforward engineering excercise best I can tell.

40MPG@200knots, 30mph stall speed, seats 4 200lb persons + baggage... THAT would be a trick and would probably push our abilities with aerodynamics and materials (probably won't be building THAT puppy out of aluminum) :)
 
These are baby steps.

No one is expecting someone to come out with a PAV, have it certified, and ready to use for non-pilots by the end of the year. It may never happen. That doesn't mean this couldn't provide something useful to general aviation.
 
pav

hi guys, i haven't posted here before, but i'm interested in the pav contest.
has anyone sent in their letter of intent other than me? also, if a sport class plane goes faster than maximum legal speed what happens to their registration as a sport aircraft? i've started testing with my rv4 and it's going to be tough. the noise seems to be the key.
dave
 
NASA PAV Challenge

If an LSA exceeds its FAA license speed limit, that LSA will no longer be an LSA and instead will become an amateur-built or other class of Experimental Aircraft.

The lead candidates for winning the $250,000 cash prize in the PAV Challenge will be RVs, though there are some high performance LSAs and motorgliders that will score high as well. The VTOLs and flying cars have a lot to prove also.

Dave is right. Noise reduction is the biggest challenge and teams are working on quieter props as well as mufflers. The CAFE website now offers expert help in these and other areas. (www.cafefoundation.org)

In year two of the competition, when some specialized designs begin showing up and the hurdle bars have been set higher, it will be harder for stock RVs to win the big cash. If I had an RV-9A, I would not hesitate to enter this contest.
Brien
 
Brien A. Seeley M.D. said:
The lead candidates for winning the $250,000 cash prize in the PAV Challenge will be RVs, though there are some high performance LSAs and motorgliders that will score high as well.
Click to expand...

While I'm skeptical that this contest does anything to actually advance the state of the art, I would say that if a slightly modified stock RV can be considered a lead candidate, then an Arion Lightning should be an even better candidate. So I decided to alert them to the challenge on the Matronics Lightning e-mail list.
 
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