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E-Bus or Main?

Tbone

Tbone

Well Known Member
I'm finalizing my wiring for the Z-11 wiring "fiasco". I'm having a time trying to figure out what would need to be on the E-bus and what should be on the Main bus. I have studied and researched and on and on and on. I have found out that there is more than one way to skin a cat or panel for that matter. Shown is the ExpressSCH drawing that I have completed and am asking for a critique. Sorry about the excess size....

1hc7eu.gif
 
Hi Terry,

To know what to put on the bus, you need to define the mission. IFR?, night?, EFIS-only panel?, electrically dependent engine?, etc.

In any case, in a real alternator failure emergency, you could do without the transponder.

Charlie
 
Is there more than one way to get power to the E-bus? If not, I would certainly not use a fuse to power that bus. Sometimes fuses blow for no apparent reason, and the last thing you want is a blown fuse taking down your whole E-bus in flight, especially in IFR or night, but even day VFR would be bad.

Personally, I despise the use of fuses with a few exceptions. Breakers are not that expensive in the grand scheme of things. If a breaker pops, it's easy to know that it happened. If a fuse blows, you don't know if a fuse is blown, a wire has gone bad or come disconnected or an instrument has gone Tango Uniform. I like using switching breakers for switching, but I especially like breakers for circuit protection.
 
Jesse said:
If a fuse blows, you don't know if a fuse is blown, a wire has gone bad or come disconnected or an instrument has gone Tango Uniform.
Click to expand...

Does it matter? If a particular circuit goes dark, then any of those 3 mean there's a problem you likely can't fix in flight. If a CB pops, why did it pop? I'd rather deal with the lost piece of equipment later, on the ground, than try to reset what might be a faulty circuit in flight...

To each his own, though...
 
But if one of your E-bus circuits shorts, there's a good chance the fuse will blow before that breaker pops, taking out your whole E-bus, not just the bad circuit. Also, some breaker pops are for abnormal issues, and sometimes resetting them works. If it's a dead short it doesn't, but an intermittent short or overcurrent condition may continue working with a reset. Blow a fuse, especially s hidden fuse, and you have no option.

This is one of the reasons I like the VP. It gives a lot more information, like over current, short circuit or even under current (don't know if the VP-X has that last one).
 
Yea I see your point Jesse. Just trying to keep close to the Z11 drawings. I'll revisit your point. Very valid. The aircraft will be "capable" of full IFR and night operations. It is full EFIS with no backup other than battery backup wth the Dynon units. Engine is able to operate with no external electrical support due to dual magnetos. Seeing that the mission is defined (at least aircraft wise). Any changes and why?
 
Jesse said:
But if one of your E-bus circuits shorts, there's a good chance the fuse will blow before that breaker pops, taking out your whole E-bus, not just the bad circuit. Also, some breaker pops are for abnormal issues, and sometimes resetting them works. If it's a dead short it doesn't, but an intermittent short or overcurrent condition may continue working with a reset. Blow a fuse, especially s hidden fuse, and you have no option.

This is one of the reasons I like the VP. It gives a lot more information, like over current, short circuit or even under current (don't know if the VP-X has that last one).
Click to expand...

Why would a single blown fuse on a buss take out the entire buss?

And if I blow a fuse, so what? That single device is now OTS, but everything else will keep working, right? I have two comms, two sources of NAV info (EFIS and GNS), two sources of flight data (primary and backup EFIS) and anything that is single-string, I can keep flying without it. Add in backup batteries and there's no single thing that can go OTS and endanger the flight...
 
Tbone said:
Yea I see your point Jesse. Just trying to keep close to the Z11 drawings. I'll revisit your point. Very valid. The aircraft will be "capable" of full IFR and night operations. It is full EFIS with no backup other than battery backup wth the Dynon units. Engine is able to operate with no external electrical support due to dual magnetos. Seeing that the mission is defined (at least aircraft wise). Any changes and why?
Click to expand...

I'd recommend figuring out a backup EFIS. I use a Dynon D-6 (also with backup battery), since loss of the primary EFIS would leave you up s**tski creeksy if you were in the soup. At least with a backup EFIS, you could keep the shiny side up and, if your TSO'd nav system were also down, presuming you had some comm capability, you could get vectors to clear air or even a PAR or something...

ETA: On mine: the bare minimum to get down safely in the event of an alternator failure and depleting battery: Fuel pump, 2nd comm, trim, backup EFIS, some cockpit lighting, and the cigarette lighter adapter (e.g., for a handheld comm). Given the backup battery in both EFISes, I can use that for the primary (good for about 1 hour), and that gives me GPS nav data as well.

What is "ALT LIGHT", and why is that on your E-buss?
 
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I see Jesse's point. If you lost your power through the main bus (per power shut down), you would be powering your E-bus items through the battery bus. Your E-bus is supplied through that bus by a ATA fuse. Now if I fuse that with an appropriate fuse, or thermal fuse, it should be feasible. Yes?
 
Bob Nuckolls once wrote, That fuse that blew or that breaker that popped might have prevented an electrical fire. Do you want to give it (the fire) a second chance?
 
Charlie beat me to it. I would like to think great minds think alike. Ditch the transponder on the E-bus. ADS-B for that matter if it's part of it. It is not mission critical and only saps power from your battery. This is an emergency situation after all. To heck with ATC and squawking anything. Basically anything not keeping the airplane in the air should be eliminated or limited. Tis better to keep them guessing and survive than try to be nice by running a power hog black box and not make it home.

Jim
 
There is an alternative to fuses or CB's for those circuits that absolutely have to work - and they are light, cheap and as reliable as a length of wire: Fusible links.
 
I am working on a possible solution for the E-bus protection, but what I'm really asking is as far as distribution of components between the master bus and endurance...The picture shows what items I have. I'm just asking those with opinions.....maybe I should have put this in the PRIMER section:D! Just kidding. I'm trying to learn something and where a better place than here. Thanks for everyone's input, It's put to good use.
 
Tbone said:
I am working on a possible solution for the E-bus protection, but what I'm really asking is as far as distribution of components between the master bus and endurance...The picture shows what items I have. I'm just asking those with opinions.....maybe I should have put this in the PRIMER section:D! Just kidding. I'm trying to learn something and where a better place than here. Thanks for everyone's input, It's put to good use.
Click to expand...

As far as that goes, I may lose the transponder and add in the D180 and HS34. If you start getting dangerously low on the bus you could pull the breaker for the D180 and revert to backup battery, but I would want that powered as long as possible. I wouldn't keep the dimmer circuit or alt light on the e-bus. If you're on the e-bus, the alternator is not working. Also, you have the things powered already lit, so no real need for a dimmer circuit IMHO.
 
Jesse said:
But if one of your E-bus circuits shorts, there's a good chance the fuse will blow before that breaker pops, taking out your whole E-bus, not just the bad circuit. Also, some breaker pops are for abnormal issues, and sometimes resetting them works. If it's a dead short it doesn't, but an intermittent short or overcurrent condition may continue working with a reset. Blow a fuse, especially s hidden fuse, and you have no option.

This is one of the reasons I like the VP. It gives a lot more information, like over current, short circuit or even under current (don't know if the VP-X has that last one).
Click to expand...

What breaker or other fuse will be blown with a failure of one circuit on the E-Bus?

The Z-11 schematic I'm looking at shows the E-Bus being fed directly from the output of the Master Contactor/Relay through a Schottky diode.

Are we now considering multiple simultaneous failure mode analysis?
 
I think the issue they're seeing is the original drawing appears to show an ATC fuse in the 'battery bus' fuse block feeding the endurance bus, and another feeding the main distribution bus.

Terry, I'm using 'fusible links', as suggested by another poster. But if you prefer, you can use something like a Midi Fuse; designed for high current semi-permanent installations.
 
rv7charlie said:
I think the issue they're seeing is the original drawing appears to show an ATC fuse in the 'battery bus' fuse block feeding the endurance bus, and another feeding the main distribution bus.
Click to expand...

But the question still stands...assume you're on the E-buss, master buss is off, E-buss fed from the battery buss.

How would a fault in a device or wire on the E-buss blow the fuse *to* the E-buss? Is the assertion that *both* the circuit fuse AND the E-buss fuse blow? or that the E-buss fuse on the battery buss blow before the circuit fuse?

Wouldn't a fault in a circuit simply blow that circuit's fuse?
 
rv7charlie said:
I think the issue they're seeing is the original drawing appears to show an ATC fuse in the 'battery bus' fuse block feeding the endurance bus, and another feeding the main distribution bus.

Terry, I'm using 'fusible links', as suggested by another poster. But if you prefer, you can use something like a Midi Fuse; designed for high current semi-permanent installations.
Click to expand...


The latest version "M" has no fuse, breaker or fusible link shown when the system is in "normal" operation mode.

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ACAD_Architecture_Dwgs/Z11M.dwg

It simply calls for a short - 6 inches or less - 16 g. wire from the Main bus terminal to the E-Bus terminal through the schottky diode.

I still don't see how a item failure on the E-bus can take the whole bus down. If it melts the 16 g wire then the fuse/breaker to the failed unit wasn't sized correctly. :)
 
Tbone said:
I am working on a possible solution for the E-bus protection, but what I'm really asking is as far as distribution of components between the master bus and endurance...The picture shows what items I have. I'm just asking those with opinions.....maybe I should have put this in the PRIMER section:D! Just kidding. I'm trying to learn something and where a better place than here. Thanks for everyone's input, It's put to good use.
Click to expand...

In a sense, the E-buss is just a quick way to shed loads when the alternator goes TU. Just ask yourself what are the absolutely critical items that you would leave on if you had to go through and individually select items to power down one at a time. At night. In weather.

With some minor differences, or preferences, you'll probably arrive at 1 PFD, 1 Nav, 1 Comm, and some cockpit lighting to read paper charts and make notes (without having to hold a flashlight in your teeth). Plus probably the boost pump.

Sequence for operation is E-buss ON, Master and Alternator OFF, and voila! Load shed complete (or nearly so).
 
RV7A Flyer said:
In a sense, the E-buss is just a quick way to shed loads when the alternator goes TU. Just ask yourself what are the absolutely critical items that you would leave on if you had to go through and individually select items to power down one at a time. At night. In weather.

With some minor differences, or preferences, you'll probably arrive at 1 PFD, 1 Nav, 1 Comm, and some cockpit lighting to read paper charts and make notes (without having to hold a flashlight in your teeth). Plus probably the boost pump.

Sequence for operation is E-buss ON, Master and Alternator OFF, and voila! Load shed complete (or nearly so).
Click to expand...

Not only that but the master contactor is shut down saving almost an amp all by itself.

Bevan
 
rv7charlie said:
I think the issue they're seeing is the original drawing appears to show an ATC fuse in the 'battery bus' fuse block feeding the endurance bus, and another feeding the main distribution buss.
Click to expand...

That's my point. I've had fuses blow for no apparent reason many times. Replace the fuse and all is good. Circuit breakers are slow blow. Normal fuses are not. If you get a dead short, the bus fuse could blow before the circuit breaker. That's what I was saying. I wasn't familiar with the Z11 wiring schematic. I was just going by what was in the posted. Having an endurance buscdepend completely on a $0.50 fuse is not my idea of electrical safety, that's all.
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Or you could just, you know, turn it off.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying turn it off. Why would you want your EFIS off? :confused: I'm saying not drawing bus current to power it, but rather let it revert to its internal backup battery for the remainder of the flight.
 
So...let me get this correct. I'm flying along and need to shut down the system due to a failure of the charging system. I turn off the master and leave on the E-bus switch. Everything that is on the E-bus is now powered directly from the battery bus (12v all time). As drawing Z-11 shows that the voltage that is supplied to the E-bus (when it is used as it is intended) is "fused" by a Blade fuse. If that fuse fails it would remove all those components from the e-bus. Not sure if a "non resettable" fuse is a good idea for such...

Also, as far as the Dynon systems. They have their own backup batteries so should there be a need to have them on the endurance bus?
 
Tbone said:
So...let me get this correct. I'm flying along and need to shut down the system due to a failure of the charging system. I turn off the master and leave on the E-bus switch. Everything that is on the E-bus is now powered directly from the battery bus (12v all time). As drawing Z-11 shows that the voltage that is supplied to the E-bus (when it is used as it is intended) is "fused" by a Blade fuse. If that fuse fails it would remove all those components from the e-bus. Not sure if a "non resettable" fuse is a good idea for such...

Also, as far as the Dynon systems. They have their own backup batteries so should there be a need to have them on the endurance bus?
Click to expand...

That's exactly my point. On the Dynon, I'd want the option of keeping it on the main battery for power.
 
Tbone said:
Yea I see your point Jesse. Just trying to keep close to the Z11 drawings. I'll revisit your point. Very valid. The aircraft will be "capable" of full IFR and night operations. It is full EFIS with no backup other than battery backup wth the Dynon units. Engine is able to operate with no external electrical support due to dual magnetos. Seeing that the mission is defined (at least aircraft wise). Any changes and why?
Click to expand...

I built mine with a similar mission in mind. I wanted a little more endurance out the Ebus than what you've implemented.

I have batteries on my EFIS as well, but their capacity denigrates over time. So their duration may be unknown when you have a failure. You'll need to periodically test them to understand their capacity. There would be nothing worse to be in IMC and have your EFIS go dark.

I have a RV-10, so I have a little more wiggle room when it comes to weight than in a RV-7. My Ebus is powered by a second Odyssey 680 and a backup alternator on the vacuum pad. I did implement a second fuse block that is dedicated to the Ebus, with a separate fuse for each circuit.

Between the dual alternators and triple batteries, I should be able to handle most situations and make it safely to the nearest airport.
 
All good points. I believe I'll move xpndr, alt warning, and dimmer circuits to the main and move at least the D180 to the Ebus. I may also install fusible link to the Ebus circuit or possibly a auto-resettable fuse.
 
Tbone said:
So...let me get this correct. I'm flying along and need to shut down the system due to a failure of the charging system. I turn off the master and leave on the E-bus switch. Everything that is on the E-bus is now powered directly from the battery bus (12v all time). As drawing Z-11 shows that the voltage that is supplied to the E-bus (when it is used as it is intended) is "fused" by a Blade fuse. If that fuse fails it would remove all those components from the e-bus. Not sure if a "non resettable" fuse is a good idea for such...

Also, as far as the Dynon systems. They have their own backup batteries so should there be a need to have them on the endurance bus?
Click to expand...

Is that the correct operation of the system?

I understood it to be the Ebus switch should be OFF in normal operation and only switched to it's ALTERNATE position when there is that failure of the charging system and the Master switch is changed to the OFF position.

Again, the discussion seems to have got into the realm of multiple simultaneous failure analysis.

The fuse feeding the Ebus only is used after another failure causes you to go into Endurance mode..
 
Tbone said:
All good points. I believe I'll move xpndr, alt warning, and dimmer circuits to the main and move at least the D180 to the Ebus. I may also install fusible link to the Ebus circuit or possibly a auto-resettable fuse.
Click to expand...

I do understand now that the fuse is only in use when in endurance mode, which is better. You could also use a switching breaker as the ebus switch.
 
I didn't know there was a debate around fuses or breakers. I had always thought you used breakers if you wanted access to it on the panel or the ability to completely shut it down if need be.

Maybe this is another debatable subject but is an endurance bus even needed? If you have primary and secondary bus set up and your EFIS and glass have their own backups isn't it reasonable to get an hour of power to be able to get safely landed assuming something goes south in IMC or at Night?

Then again I typically don't fly in IMC where I can't get out of it by going down a few thousand feet. Likewise I don't fly IMC and Night at all.
 
AviatorJ said:
....

Maybe this is another debatable subject but is an endurance bus even needed? If you have primary and secondary bus set up and your EFIS and glass have their own backups isn't it reasonable to get an hour of power to be able to get safely landed assuming something goes south in IMC or at Night?

Then again I typically don't fly in IMC where I can't get out of it by going down a few thousand feet. Likewise I don't fly IMC and Night at all.
Click to expand...

I had that Ebus needed internal debate...:)

However it only needs an extra fuse block and an extra switch. Since the parts and work needed were so minimal I went with it.

Also, when I got all of the fuse positions sorted out I needed a second fuse block anyway.
 
Jesse said:
I'm not saying turn it off. Why would you want your EFIS off? :confused: I'm saying not drawing bus current to power it, but rather let it revert to its internal backup battery for the remainder of the flight.
Click to expand...

Ah, right...I misread what you wrote. Yes, you could do that. In fact, that's why my SV1000 is not on the E-buss, but the backup D6 is...given that both are battery-backed, I could with careful management get well over 2 hours of PFD time out of them.
 
Jesse said:
That's my point. I've had fuses blow for no apparent reason many times. Replace the fuse and all is good. Circuit breakers are slow blow. Normal fuses are not. If you get a dead short, the bus fuse could blow before the circuit breaker. That's what I was saying. I wasn't familiar with the Z11 wiring schematic. I was just going by what was in the posted. Having an endurance buscdepend completely on a $0.50 fuse is not my idea of electrical safety, that's all.
Click to expand...

Wait, what? Fuses blow for "no apparent reason"? Then I submit you're not looking hard enough for the reason. Fuses don't "just blow" for no reason at all.

I'm still not convinced that a short on a circuit on the E-buss, which is protected by a fuse, would cause the entire buss to go down because of a blown fuse *to* the buss. I think a test might be in order :). I'm not a EE, but can someone explain why or how this might happen?

But let's assume it *could* happen. OK, just get rid of the fuse from the hot buss to the E-buss. Problem solved.
 
Reconsider your objectives

All,

An interesting thread - as it always seems to be. While I respect the Nuckles good work on the Aeroelectric bible, I offer that simple adherence to things like the Z-11 diagram is not the best approach. Start with your design objective. Examples include:
- Mitigation against the most likely component failure (for most this is the alternator).
- Mitigation against any single component's failure creating unacceptable results (examples include a single battery contactor, a single avionics switch, a single master switch, etc.).
- Graceful degradation of capability if you have a component failure (power fails to comm #1, but comm #2 has an independent power feed). Ability to do follow on power rerouting to regain Comm #1 is a bonus.
- Battery reserve to have continued IFR flight for X hours if any component fails.

Taking these into consideration, some design basics follow:
- A single battery install do not support these objectives
- If we add an efficiency criteria, that leads to two batteries that are both on line for heavy current draw (engine cranking). In other works, nothing gets a free ride for "just in case". To simply the design, both batteries are better off being identical.
- To mitigate single power distribution component failures, power to the panel needs to have a primary and alternate path.
- To enhance battery reserve for a loss of alternator, it is nice to be a simple way to shed non-IFR related loads.
- For the new power hungry panels, it is hard to get more than 1.5 - 2 hours of full IFR flight battery reserve without having batteries that are just too big (and heavy). Depending on your battery reserve design target you may need a standby alternator. If so, how you connect this is critical so that it is really there when you need it.

If anyone wants a PowerPoint example of one approach, send me an email.

Carl
RV-8A (sold)
RV-10 (sold)
RV-14 (helper)
RV-8 (waiting on SB kits to arrive)
 
RV7A Flyer said:
Wait, what? Fuses blow for "no apparent reason"? Then I submit you're not looking hard enough for the reason. Fuses don't "just blow" for no reason at all.

I'm still not convinced that a short on a circuit on the E-buss, which is protected by a fuse, would cause the entire buss to go down because of a blown fuse *to* the buss. I think a test might be in order :). I'm not a EE, but can someone explain why or how this might happen?

But let's assume it *could* happen. OK, just get rid of the fuse from the hot buss to the E-buss. Problem solved.
Click to expand...

I'll concede Jesse's greater store of experience, but I agree that modern ATC/ATX style fuses don't 'just blow'. (Sounds like a memory from the old glass fuse days...) I can't remember an ATC fuse blowing without cause in, well, since they started using them in cars. I designed my (in progress) electrical system around the Aeroelectric book's diagrams, but I confess that I never noticed the 7A fuse from the always hot fuse block to the alt feed of the endurance bus.

I'd agree that 7A is a bit marginal as a bus feeder fuse size, but I think his logic was that it followed the FAA's rule of thumb about 'always hot' loads. A 7A fuse could actually have the potential to blow in a downstream fault. I used fusible links to feed any bus that's truly essential, since they are only going to blow in a large, extended overload condition.

Charlie
 
I agree with Jesse. Sometimes fuses fail for no reason. After all they are designed to be the weak link in the circuit. A poor connection in a fuse holder can generate heat which will blow a fuse. Likewise, a loose screw on a circuit breaker will generate heat that can cause the breaker to trip. I think that having two fuses or breakers in series is bad practice. Even if one of them is much larger than the other, a hard short circuit can blow both simultaneously
An E-Bus relay located near the battery will give the pilot the ability to shut off the circuit at the source in case of electrical smoke. Good workmanship and double insulation will minimize the chances of the E-Bus feeder shorting to ground, eliminating the need for feeder short-circuit protection. The same reasoning is used for the main power bus feeder.
 
Mich48041 said:
I agree with Jesse. Sometimes fuses fail for no reason. After all they are designed to be the weak link in the circuit.
Click to expand...

They don't fail "for no reason". There is always a reason. If you don't have one, then you haven't looked hard enough to find it (and fix it).

A poor connection in a fuse holder can generate heat which will blow a fuse.
Click to expand...

That's a reason. So make sure the connections are good and solid, use high-quality fuse blocks, etc.

Likewise, a loose screw on a circuit breaker will generate heat that can cause the breaker to trip. I think that having two fuses or breakers in series is bad practice. Even if one of them is much larger than the other, a hard short circuit can blow both simultaneously
Click to expand...

Again, I'm no EE, but *is this true*? It may be bad practice, but is there an actual analysis that shows this? Or some dataset of empirical evidence? Has anyone here seen this happen?

Right now, all we have is someone (or some people) saying "that's bad...that bigger fuse could blow also", without no actual reason WHY that could happen.

An E-Bus relay located near the battery will give the pilot the ability to shut off the circuit at the source in case of electrical smoke. Good workmanship and double insulation will minimize the chances of the E-Bus feeder shorting to ground, eliminating the need for feeder short-circuit protection. The same reasoning is used for the main power bus feeder.
Click to expand...

I think I could concur on this approach. As a matter of fact, this whole discussion *has* caused me wonder why Z-11 has a fuse on the feeder from the hot buss, but not from the battery (main buss tap). Seems one or the other should be done, but not both...?

Where's Bob Nuckolls to explain this? :)
 
E buss

If you normally land with flaps they could be on E buss. They would only draw current for 20 seconds or so at the end of the flight and you don't have to use them if stdby battery is critically low. Having them available might be good, especially if the runway is short. Also the com and nav parts of the SL-40 can be fused separately on the main buss. Good of you to gather ideas. Good luck.
 
Fuses and breakers

A quick look at the specifications shows that fuses do "pop" quicker than a breaker, but it should not be "unexplained" or at random.

An ATC with 200% overload has an average "melt time" of 0.7 second, a Tyco W23 breaker has a pop time of 6 to 23 seconds at 200% of it's rating.

If you are relying on the extra time for the breaker to not pop during operation then something is drastically wrong with either your equipment or with the selection of the fuse rating. :)
 
RV7A Flyer said:
snipped...
I think I could concur on this approach. As a matter of fact, this whole discussion *has* caused me wonder why Z-11 has a fuse on the feeder from the hot buss, but not from the battery (main buss tap). Seems one or the other should be done, but not both...?

Where's Bob Nuckolls to explain this? :)
Click to expand...

He's on the Matronics Aeroelectric list, where the doc was created largely with community input. That's the best place to get answers to questions about the doc.

Specific to the question in the paragraph: The unfused always hot bus (fuse block) is intended to be within a few inches of either the battery, or the supply side of the master contactor. By being there, it's within the design criteria for unprotected loads recommended by the FAA for certified a/c. The always hot bus feeds not only the endurance bus, but other items as well, and each downstream load gets protection.

Guys, almost everything being discussed in this thread has been hashed out over on the Aeroelectric list. One of those things is that the Z diagrams in the book are *guidelines* for safe, functional, reliable electrical systems. They are not intended to be locked-down circuit diagrams that cannot be changed, as in certified systems. Any diagram can be modified, and Bob has said repeatedly that they should be, to fit the user's individual needs. You just need to analyse any changes for unintended 'gotchas'.

Charlie
 
Well I built a fusible link to supply power to the Ebus. It is now a 14 gauge with a short piece of 18 gauge as the sacrificial link. My battery bus supply wiring is slightly longer than the suggested but is very, very protected. I'm not concerned with it in the least. I did have to leave a few items on the Ebus because of space constraints but they are not used during level flight. Moved xpndr to main, flaps to Ebus......Yada..yada. Thanks for the discussion. I for one have learned something from it and absolutely feel that we all love this hobby!
 
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