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Hard to reach rivets - rudder

E

efitzgerald

Active Member
Hello,

I am riveting my rudder together and I am having a difficult time with a few rivets.

2.jpg

3.jpg

1.jpg


Flush pop rivets can be used for the missing rivets shown in the first and second pictures. What would you recommend for the rivet in the horn brace?
 
May as well learn it now, if you didn't already know this...

Pulled ("pop") rivets with flush heads usually have a different angle than solid AN rivets. They're 120 degrees, instead of 100. You'll probably end up filling and sanding that area to prep for paint anyway, so it won't make much difference if you didn't dimple/countersink to 120 degrees, but they do make special countersinks and dimple dies for 120 degree rivets. I forget where I got mine, but the usual tool suppliers should have them.

ETA: BTW, your workmanship looks very good from what I can see in those pics...
 
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I'm not to far behind you, so I am interested in how you end up solving this problem. I should be on the rudder in a few weeks.
 
No-hole yoke?

Do u have a no-hole yoke for your rivet sqeezer? I think thats what i used.

Keith
 
Indirect back riveting

http://eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=5337092001

This is one way for those trailing edge rivets. As has been pointed out, there is a fibreglass fairing installed here so it is easy to hide a blind rivet. However the above technique is handy on ailerons and flaps as the blind rivets will be much more visible.

As for the Rudder brace, does a 3 inch yoke reach? I'm sure I got in there somehow. Sometimes its a case of trying different combinations of rivet sets. Looks like you may want the longest set you have on the yoke to make a kind of longeron yoke to get around the bottom of the brace.
 
On the rudder horn I too used my longeron yoke and squeezer but needed to use my small tungsten bar and gun an the farthest forward rivet.
 
I'm not far ahead of you- this was the first area where I got creative. For the trailing edge rivets I back riveted- plate on the skin side and I drove the shop head using a carpet tucking tool I had in the shop. Imagine a really solid putty knife that I drove with the rivet gun on the flat side. Couple pieces of tiny latex tubing to create the spring compression of the back rivet set.

For the horn I shimmed the river set in the squeezer with washers to get more reach like a longeron yoke. Found that tip on VAF somewhere.

Also when you get to the trailing edge- skip the epoxy and use pro seal. Epoxy will crack on riveting and you might get a little pillowing (lesson I learned).

Hope this helps- Chuck
 
efitzgerald said:
Hello,

I am riveting my rudder together and I am having a difficult time with a few rivets.

2.jpg

3.jpg

1.jpg


Flush pop rivets can be used for the missing rivets shown in the first and second pictures. What would you recommend for the rivet in the horn brace?
Click to expand...

No hole yoke squeezer. Pricey but go ahead and just buy it and it'll save you a lot of grief with various home-brewed remedies which too often turn out like crud.

You can always sell it when done building. Tools for airplane building really hold their value on the secondary market.
 
Squeezer

See my blog for the rudder brace i used a squeezer for the rivets into the rib and for two of the rivets in the bottom and the other two i pop riveted. Use the recommended vans rivets there is no need for a 120 degree dimple or whatever.
I used the 4" yoke and a nut to make a poor mans longeron yoke; worked fine.
 
I have a no hole yoke for the squeezer but it didn't look like it was going to fit. The rivet head wouldn't sit flush in the dimple when the squeezer was in position. I figured it wouldn't set correctly like that.

I used a longeron yoke for most of the horn rivers but on the last one the nutplate inside was interfering with the alignment. I tried one and ruined the rivet.

I will be working on the rudder this weekend so I will try some of your suggestions. I had to wait for my pro seal to arrive anyway.

Thanks for the input.
 
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MK-319-BS structural pop rivets are an option

I used MK-319-BS pop rivets for the holes that I just couldn't get. I tried to be a hero and use the indirect back riveting technique but I could never get a good rivet set with it. I called Van's to make sure of course that using the MK-319 rivet was ok, and they gave me the thumbs up. You should call vans and ask as well. The rivet sits flush in the 3/32" dimple but you will need to enlarge the hole from #40 to #33???? I think

http://garetsrv.blogspot.ca/2015/10/finishing-up-last-fe-rivets-on.html
 
+1 on the no-hole yoke. I ground mine down to fit the tight corners:

28837vc.jpg


Yes, these rivets are hard to set!
 
Hard to reach rivets

Hi,
Don't see a problem. I have built the whole empennage for a 9A and mostly hand squeezed all the rivets using the tools I bought from Clevland tools.
From the pictures you have posted forget the bucking bar and use the 4" jaws with the tapered edge.
Buchaneer
 
I remember using the end of a large crowbar on some rivet once. I would tend to use more pops instead of hassling with it now. Especially if its just one or 2 rivets in a non critical area. In fact, if I remember correctly, there may be a bracket in the RV8 rudder linkage that has steel pops called out on the plans, not certain but, I think so. And...doesn't one of the RV models use pops extensively on all over?? Point is, pops are not so bad, don't worry so much! :)

Also, I usually fill the holes in my pops with JB weld for stronger and prettier.
 
Add Cherry Max to your knowledge base.

The setting of the rivets is covered pretty well here. The mention of "pop" rivets indicate a learning opportunity
.
This is an area for adding to the new builder learning. There are aircraft grade pull rivets. Cherry Max. Download their catalog and it will have tables and numbers for the various options. They are actually stronger than solid rivets in shear. Not as good for holding things tight in tension though. The countersunk ones are 100 deg angle but begin at 1/8" . They do have a head like a -3 so it will work in a -3 dimpled hole. Like an oops rivet - (NAS)

They can be pulled by a standard pull handle, but it might take two strokes, make the first one short as the friction of the pulled core is critical.

Follow the thickness limits and you will be fine. They can be removed, almost easier than a solid. Fodder for more research. It is already posted.

Happy Building!
 
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I was able to get all of the rivets set except the very last one on the top side of the rudder. I had to modify both the no hole yoke and the longeron yoke to make them fit. I will post pictures later but I am concerned that if I remove any more material from the no hole yoke it will begin to bend.

CS4-4 blind rivets can also be used for the rubber horn instead of the AN426AD3-4, I didn't notice that on the print originally.

I will probably use the MK-319-BS rivets for the two I couldn't get. It would be nice to say I got them all but I would rather not take the chance of messing up and damaging the rudder.

Thanks for the input as always.

Eric
 
I just thought of another question I had.

The MK-319-BS looks like the rivet body it made out of trivalent clear zinc chromate plated steel. Are any special preparations needed to avoid galvanic corrosion between the steel and aluminum or is the zinc coating enough?

Eric
 
efitzgerald said:
I just thought of another question I had.

The MK-319-BS looks like the rivet body it made out of trivalent clear zinc chromate plated steel. Are any special preparations needed to avoid galvanic corrosion between the steel and aluminum or is the zinc coating enough?

Eric
Click to expand...

The MK-319-BS are made of "monel" which is galvanically neutral with aluminum. Used in a number of places in the RV-14. Approved for the rear spars in the elevator as an alternative to using the "special bucking bar". Also used in the RV-14/14A plans for spots like the one OP posted. They fit the 3/32 dimple, just need to be drilled out to #33. I use a #33 reamer. Once the hole is filled they should look pretty much exactly like a flush rivet. I like the look of a row of them:

 
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