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Constant Speed Prop vs. Controllable Pitch

Bob Axsom

Well Known Member
I have thought about the constant speed prop for some time (which I have on my RV-6A) and I have a hard time accepting it as the best way to obtain optimum performance - you can read that as best cruise speed if you like because that is what is important to me. I just seems to me that I could select a fine pitch for climb and fine tune a high pitch setting for maximum speed. I know that the constant speed setup works well for all reasons, etc. but sometimes I would like to dial in the pitch and peak for speed. I assume this is a theoretical subject but I would like to get your thoughts on this.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob,

If you had a controllable pitch prop, you would set full throttle and then vary the pitch as desired. The rpm would go to whatever rpm was required to make the torque required to spin the prop equal to the torque produced by the engine.

If you had a constant speed prop with the exact same blades as your controllable pitch prop, you could achieve the same effect my making small movements of the prop lever. This would change the rpm, and the pitch would go to where ever pitch was required to hold the rpm constant. But, if you had the same rpm as with a controllable pitch prop, the pitch would be exactly the same, the prop efficiency and engine power would be exactly the same, and the aircraft speed would be exactly the same.

A controllable pitch prop has no advantage in this scenario.
 
Interesting thought. A constant speed prop might actually be giving you a bit of an advantage here, maybe. As you slow down, say, in a slight climb or a turn, the constant speed prop would tend to go to slightly finer pitch as the prop starts to load up. Depending where you're flying in terms of engine/prop efficiency at that time, it could give you an extra little bit of acceleration right when you need it the most.

It'd be neat if someone actually had any numbers showing if this helps, hurts or is just a wash.
 
If you want to optimize cruise speed, I would think that the fixed pitch prop would be the best choice....assuming you really didn't care about climb performance.
The CS prop provides a better combination of climb and cruise, but at the penalty of cost and weight, of the prop itself, not to mention the governor, oil lines and additional oil and controls.
My personal preference is for the CS prop, since it converts HP to power more efficiently in all regimes. But, for pure speed, I'd bet on the FP prop and the lightest airframe possible.
 
More RPM

Bob do you have a Blended airfoil Hartzell, the fastest prop. Still the HC-C2YK/F7666-4 is no slouch. Of course 72" is better than 74" for high speed cruise.

I will trade a little speed secret, tweak your governor (at your own risk) to 2750 or 2800 or even 2850 rpm. You will make an extra 2, 5, 7 HP. I personally don't like to run above 2800 rpm. Fixed props can be faster because they OVER turn the RPM. With a governor you are limited to 2,700 rpm automatically. It also matches Lycomings rpm RED line.

I adjusted my RPM to 2,800 rpm intentionally. You will gain speed based on the cube root of HP ratio. Say your 180 HP speed was 200 mph, your new speed assuming a +5 HP gain for 100 RPM increase would be:

= 200 * ( 185 / 180 ) ^ (1/3) ≈ 202 mph. (a 2-3 mph gain depending on altitude)

To avoid 2,800 rpm on takeoff I'd intentionally pull the prop back just a little on takeoff. When racing its prop and throttle wide open. MORE RPM = MORE HP.

More RPM does reduce prop efficency at high speed a little, but it's a small fraction of a precent loss in efficiency, verses the gain in thrust from RPM induced HP increase. Of course it plays heck with your fuel burn, but you will go a little faster.

You could be bold and bump it to a full 2850 rpm or 2900 rpm but I am too conservative for that. However if 2,800 RPM is good, 2,900 RPM is better, race wise. Now Lycoming will not be happy but it has been done. I am also talking about only doing it for a race, an hour or two once a year or so, not all the time. How much faster? Well if 100 RPM gave +2 mph, you can expect +4 mph more for +200 RPM.

Good Luck, I don't give out all my secrets. :D but for you buddy. Don't tell anyone. :rolleyes:
 
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I'm Thinking

Kevin Horton said:
Bob,

If you had a controllable pitch prop, you would set full throttle and then vary the pitch as desired. The rpm would go to whatever rpm was required to make the torque required to spin the prop equal to the torque produced by the engine.

If you had a constant speed prop with the exact same blades as your controllable pitch prop, you could achieve the same effect my making small movements of the prop lever. This would change the rpm, and the pitch would go to where ever pitch was required to hold the rpm constant. But, if you had the same rpm as with a controllable pitch prop, the pitch would be exactly the same, the prop efficiency and engine power would be exactly the same, and the aircraft speed would be exactly the same.

A controllable pitch prop has no advantage in this scenario.

What you say makes sense but what I see in my airplane doesn't. Since I do not have direct control of propeller pitch I have no confidence that the pitch is increasing linearly as I dial in the prop and the RPM is a function of load balancing. I would not be surprised to see the same RPM produced at more than one prop pitch angle because of different loads, different operating procedures, system inefficiencies, environment, fliuds, etc. Direct pitch control would result in whatever RPM the engine could drive it to. I am mainly interested in the "bite" and the thrust produced by the turning prop and the resulting true air speed. The "small movements" may be a clue to working around this system that I have to deal with. If I can get a good calm air day I may set up test with RPM increments of 10 from 2400 to 2700 and record the GPS and TAS results. With enough data I can come up with an operational work around for some of the inefficiencies in this indirect system.

Bob Axsom
 
Thanks George

I did adjust the governer up over 2700. When I first flew it the out of the box it maxed out at 2630 RPM. I have an EI tach and, like you, when that red light comes on at 2700 it gets my attention and I back it off a bit. I have some more cooling drag ideas to work through but I will keep the 2800 race only option in my "to do" list.

Bob Axsom

P.S. The prop is the older C2YK-1BF/F7666A4 so it is the 72" non-blended prop.

Bob
 
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Very good point Steve

sf3543 said:
If you want to optimize cruise speed, I would think that the fixed pitch prop would be the best choice....assuming you really didn't care about climb performance.
The CS prop provides a better combination of climb and cruise, but at the penalty of cost and weight, of the prop itself, not to mention the governor, oil lines and additional oil and controls.
My personal preference is for the CS prop, since it converts HP to power more efficiently in all regimes. But, for pure speed, I'd bet on the FP prop and the lightest airframe possible.

That Sensenich for the 180HP RV-6 looks mighty good. The problem with the fixed pich prop is what you see is what you get. If it isn't right you are stuck with it and it won't soften the load for a stressed engine.

Bob Axsom
 
Race prop

Bob,

There is a prop shop at Hayward, CA if memory serves me right that has done some prop testing and mods for guys running the sport and Bi Plane classes at Reno. An aquaintance from work had them work up a Hartzell for his Lancair based on research that they had previously done for others. I don't know which engine and prop combos they have worked with, but the 0-360 Lyc is pretty common and chances are good thay they know the magic. The way they described the process to me when I was shopping for a prop was that they take a sacrificial set of blades (most likely just out of specs) and play with the twist. Testing is done to see when it optimizes in flight. At this point they start whacking some of the length off while doing more tests. When they get to the point where the speeds taper off they know they went to far. At this point the good blades come out and are set up to the optimums. For the 0-320 and the Hartzell they end up putting a "D" twist to the "C" twist blades to make it similar to a Baron prop which has the "D" but is much longer. Then they shorten it to their sweet spot. They claim 15-20 knots on a Lancair and seemed to think that on an RV it should be good for at least 10 knots. I was also told to assume the climb would go down 300 or so fpm. They offered to do this to my new Hartzell, or to get a set of Baron blades that were no longer servicable for a certified plane and work them up for $700 each. The process was just to much for me and I gave up before taking the chance on them ruining my new prop. My old co-worker swears by his.

Regards,
 
Wow thanks Brian

That is some fresh input! My chicken hearted response is what you would expect but that definitly is something I want to know about. Some brave soul may have taken them up on it and will report the results. The next time I see Cris Ferguson I will ask him about it as well. He has a Lycon prepared engine in his Pitts that he finished second with in the biplane silver class but I never really looked at or asked about his prop. He designed and built the plane that finished second in the gold class also but they have one of those Paul Lipps design props made by Cato on it.

Bob Axsom
 
Something sounds too good to be......

Bryan Wood said:
Bob,
They claim 15-20 knots on a Lancair and seemed to think that on an RV it should be good for at least 10 knots. I was also told to assume the climb would go down 300 or so fpm. They offered to do this to my new Hartzell, or to get a set of Baron blades that were no longer serviceable for a certified plane and work them up for $700 each. Regards,
I have to express doubt that the prop will give an increase of 10 kts. That is a HUGE increase in thrust. The Hartzell BA prop is optimized for the RV airframe, right. I also know prop efficiency improvements are measured in fractions of percent. Its hard to get, in my opinion from what I know (not much :D ).

10 kts is hard to believe. Now if a prop is way off, sure you can gain, but the F7666 blade and the more optimal (for the RV airframe) BA prop probably can not be improved that much, for a given HP. Now if you lowered airframe drag or increased engine HP radically than yes it would no longer be ideal. However I think Bob's plane is pretty stock. Meaning the wings not clipped, canopy lowered, cowl inlets reduced.
 
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Maybe this applies

50 years ago when my attention was focused on models the props for control line speed classes were optimized for that competition were small diameter high pitch products. Free Flight on the other hand depended on maximum climb performance (20 sec. engine run, 5 minute max, three times then an unlimited flight if you got three maxs) and the event optimized props for the same engines were much larger in diameter and much smaller in pitch. The engine can get loaded with either daimeter or pitch and there is "best" combination to optimize performance for cruise speed or climb. The 72" compared to the 74" would be better for maximum speed if it allows the engine to produce the maximum power before diameter loading starts bogging down the engine. Another factor is the tip speed of the propeller. At supersonic speed the performance decays and at the same RPM the 74" tip speed is higher.

Bob Axsom
 
MCA said:
Why is a smaller prop faster than a larger prop??
Whether the aircraft with the smaller prop is faster or slower than the one with the larger prop will depend on the details of the particular engine, prop and airframe. In the case of the older Hartzells (this may, or may not, be applicable to the new BA Hartzells), the higher Mach number at the blade tip reduces the prop efficiency of the larger diameter prop at max speed and max rpm. The larger prop is more efficient than the smaller one at lower speeds (take-off, climb) and at lower rpm in cruise (e.g. 2300 rpm).

If you have a very small diameter prop, there are a couple of issues:

1. You need high pitch to absorb the engine power, and this means the speed of the prop blast has to be very high. This high speed prop blast creates a large amount of drag when it blows against the cowling and forward fuselage.

2. Prop efficiency (and thus the thrust produced) is greatest when you have a very large amount of air moving at a slow speed through the prop (think helicopter rotor). A small diameter prop moves a small amount of air at high speed, and thus has low efficiency.

If you incrementally increase the diameter of our very small diameter prop, the thrust produced will increase, until eventually you get the diameter large enough that the Mach number at the blade tip gets too high. The air has to accelerate as it goes over the prop airfoil, and parts of the airflow will become supersonic even when the blade tip Mach is less than 1. This reduces the prop efficiency, meaning the thrust is lower, and the speed is lower.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
I have to express doubt that the prop will give an increase of 10 kts.

Me too! The Lancair guy swore by it though. Maybe somebody should call Sullivan Propeller at Hayward and get the straight scoop as they tell it and explain it to us. I want to say the persons name was Brian, but it has been a few years since calling him. I do recall him saying that the change in twist from the C to the D produces around 100 or so additional pounds of thrust on a stock Hartzell.
 
This morning's test results

I got up early (for a retired guy) this morning to test the top speed of my airplane in its current cooling mod state. Instead of one run I made two, one at 2450 RPM and one at 2700 PPM. The surface winds were calm but there was some smooth air flow aloft. The OAT at 6,000 ft pressure altitude was 21C so the test was flown at 4,200 ft pressure altitude (approximately 200 ft lower than the corrected Altimeter display). The altimeter setting on ATIS at Drake field was 29.97 but the test was flown using 29.92. The OAT at 4,200 ft was 26C. I think the results substantiate what George has stated here.

2450 RPM (heading - speed in knots)
360 deg. - 174, 175, 174, 175, 174
120 deg. - 170, 170, 169, 169, 169
240 deg. - 162, 162, 162, 162, 163

Average Speed = 168.7

2700 RPM
360 deg. - 177, 177, 177, 177, 178
120 deg. - 172, 172, 172, 172, 173
240 deg. - 165, 166, 165, 165, 166

Average Speed = 171.6

MAP = 25.5
Oil Temp = 200
Oil Pressure = 80
Mixture = 100 ROP
CHT (1,2,3,4) = 324, 379, 377, 343

Bob Axsom
 
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Randy Lervold is (was) the RV-8 owner/author

I was going to cut and paste a paragraph from the "prop" section of the website listed above (Randy Lervold's - he sold the RV-8 and is building an RV-3B) but it is copy righted on the home page so I'll have to pass on that idea but early on he states that the Hartzell prop sold by Van's is optimized for speeds lower than the RVs fly. Like I said a very interesting 11 page write-up just on the prop and his eventual finding of a design/propeller he thinks is better.

I haven't heard from Sullivan Propeller and probably won't for a while. Winter is coming and I have to shift my focus to designing and building a manual wood splitter. I refuse to pay well over a $1,000 when I have a perfectly good bottle jack left over from building my RV-6A and a splitting wedge. It's amazing how creative you can get after building an airplane. The problem is it will probably cost me $2,000 and 1 manyear of work.

Bob Axsom
 
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Response from Sullivan Propeller

Bob:

You can contact Brian Sullivan via telephone to discuss your specific
needs at the numbers below. If you get our voicemail have faith and
leave a message he will return the call. Fridays and Mondays are
particularly busy with our regularly scheduled work. I have passed your
email on to him to get him up to speed and ready to chat with you.
Have a great day we look forward to talking to you! And thanks for
contacting us!

Sullivan Propeller Specialists
20995 Skywest Drive
Hayward, CA 94541
tel: 510.782.0920, 800.782.0920
 
I talked to Sullivan Propeller

I did not talk to Brian Sullivan himself but the person I talked to was well informed. They do not have an off the shelf propeller mod for any airplane. They do as Brian stated in an earlier post, they carefully layout and twist the propeller and cut down the diameter in an evolutionalry manner to achieve maximum speed. It is expensive and you do have to take your airplane to Hayward Airport in California's Bay Area to have them modify you prop. What they do is something that any competent prop specialist can do. It is expensive in that they cut of the tips of your prop, test fly it, record the speed, cut off more of the tips, test fly it, record the speed, cut of more of the tips, record the speed, etc. until the maximum speed drops. Then they take a new set of blades and reconfigure them to the configuration that gave the maximum speed and the old blades are what ever the scrap value is I guess. They do not gaurantee any specific speed gain although some of their customers claim as high as 20 knot gains. The mod is tailored to the specific airplane with a lot of careful work and if the weather is good it can be completed in a week. This is getting really special and seriously into the world of propellers. Interesting.

Bob Axsom
 
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Interesting posts. Two thoughts come to mind. First, the centrifugal loading on the propeller hub increasing with the square of the propeller rpm. An increase of rpm from 2700 to 2800 would increase the hub loading by about 8%. I wonder, how strong are the hub and blade grips? Second, experimenting with blade twist and length puts the propeller/engine combination into areas of untested and unknown resonance, ie: potentially distructive vibration that is not detectable by the pilot. It might be prudent to install large cables that wrap around the engine and attach to the airframe in the event that a piece of propeller blade breaks off and the engine tries to jump off of the airplane. Aerobats and Reno racers do this, I think.
 
Prop me up...

Bob,
Having run five different props on my RV4 over the last 13 years and 1400 hours, I have a couple of observations. First, it's not about how fast you can go for me, it's how slow (short strips, dogfighting, etc..) you can go. I have flown all the models of the RV now, with and without C/S. My favorite is still the RV4 with the HR2 a close second. The absolute fastest RV I have ever flown is my Harmon Rocket but it has 300 ponies out front which isn't a fair comparison. C/S prop airplanes are heavy nosed if you like over the top acro but are nice for slowing down in the pattern, short takeoff rolls, cross country etc. My Rocket can get into my 1900' strip with no worries, mainly due to the braking effect and power in the huge Hartzell paddle out front. The best of both worlds would be a composite C/S like the Whirlwind, Aerocomposites or MT. Any C/S is $$$ though.
So, what do I like best? A light nose and simplicity. My RV4 has a FP MT 2 blade after having run a Catto, Sterba, Warnke and Gary Hertzler racing prop selling the previous to pay for the subsequent. With my FP MT and a 160+HP 0-320, I cruise easily at 165 Knots true at 8500' at 8.5 gph and average 400' takeoff rolls at SL with 1500 fpm climb rates. You gotta like that!
It all boils down to what YOU like and can afford. If a C/S is in your budget, buy one! It adds value and overall utility of the airplane but it also adds weight and complexity.
If you like simplicity, acro, bang for the buck and experimentation get a FP composite like the Catto, Hertzler or MT. Then go buy a years worth of gas with what $$$ you have leftover. FP props and Radio Shack avionics are also nice conversation pieces at fly-in's now as EVERY-body seems to have the bucks for EFIS and C/S props. Not so 15 years ago..of course we used to drill all the holes too...:)

Seeya!

Rob Ray
 
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smokyray said:
Bob,
C/S prop airplanes are heavy nosed if you like over the top acro but are nice for slowing down in the pattern, short takeoff rolls, cross country etc. My Rocket can get into my 1900' strip with no worries, mainly due to the braking effect and power in the huge Hartzell paddle out front. The best of both worlds would be a composite C/S like the Whirlwind, Aerocomposites or MT. Any C/S is $$$ though.

If you like simplicity, acro, bang for the buck and experimentation get a FP composite like the Catto, Hertzler or MT. Seeya! Rob Ray
I don't think he was asking if FP or C/S is better, however I think you are wrong on two points.


Rob I have to disagree, fwd CG is often a good thing. First some RV's with FP props are tail heavy, like the RV-7, which is designed for metal C/S prop. With my Hartzell and O360 I am still a little heavy in the tail. If I had a wood prop I could not carry any bags. Of course more prop weight means fwd CG, but that is a good thing in some cases.

My RV-4, I flew over 1000 hours, had a C/S extended hub Hartzell on a O320. It put me right near the fwd CG solo, which was fine. I just needed full nose up trim on approach. However when I traveled with my girlfriend (120 lbs) and all kinds of bags and camping gear (all aft CG), I was glad to have the nose weight. With a light prop I would be way aft CG.

Aerobatics with a C/S is a dream. To say a FP is better for aerobatics is not correct IMHO. When have you seen any Prop acro pilot or serious acro plane with a FP? Set the C/S prop and loop and forget engine controls, as you roll and loop without the RPM's going overspeed and throttle jockeying.

As far as the props you mention they cost way more, cost more to repair and are less efficent than a metal Hartzell or Sensenich. That is just the way I see it. Cheers
 
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Ah Ha!

After getting all of these learned inputs and talking to Sulivan Propellers at Hayward, California my comprehension of speed optimization with the prop has raised to a new level. As was said the torque load of the prop and the torque output of the engine are equal in a steady state running condition. In a constant speed prop installation there is one variable propeller parameter and that is the pitch. The pilot has no way to directly change the pitch which was my original concern. However, if you reduce the diameter the load on the engine is reduced and the pitch must be increased to maintain the same RPM. Up to a point, the aircraft speed will increase with each reduction in diameter. For a given prop/engine/airplane combination there is one diameter that will give maximum aircraft speed. This can be found experimentally as done by Sulivan Propeller but the cost is to find the optimum you have to go beyond the peak and that means to get the peak aircraft speed you have to buy replacement blades and cut them down to the diameter that produced the maximum aircraft speed.

Bob Axsom
 
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More on props...

Bob Axsom said:
I found an interesting 11 page writeup by an RV-8 owner at http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Prop.htm. Lots of test data.

Bob Axsom
Hi Bob. Yes, I did quite a bit of testing with props, very interesting stuff. I also collaborated with Van's (since I live near by) on some testing and in fact in the two Van's RVator articles they indicate that some of their test data was my data that they had extrapolated, and therein can lay a problem. Since the Hartzell BA was just becoming available when I did my testing we did not have an opportunity to test the BA directly against the WW 200RV on the same aircraft. Van's comparative data for those two props is therefore extrapolated and that can of course introduce errors. My sense, after flying my RV-8 next to BA equipped birds, is that the 200RV is still the more efficient prop, but certainly not by a wide margin. I sure like the lighter weight, lower noise, and lack of any rpm restrictions. But of course this must be offset by greater cost and a much shorter service/inspection interval.

The WW 200RV "OptiQ" airfoil really is a breakthrough. Jack Norris (noted aerodynamic engineer) worked with Jim Rust (former owner of WW) on the planform and airfoil and it does represent new thinking not heretofore incorporated in a GA prop. Further, it was designed specifically for the RV airframe (the RV-8 actually) with its specific frontal area and speed envelope.

What most people don't realize is that Jim didn't like the fact that the WW 150 gave up a little speed being a 3 blade design so once my test data was in on the 200RV he took that "OptiQ" blade design, scaled it down to a 68" diameter, and retrofitted the 150 making it into the 151 in an effort to get that speed back. No one has done any back to back testing on the 150 vs. the 151 that I'm aware of but based on the performance of the 200RV it can't help but be a bit faster. Being a 2 blade design the 200RV will still be the faster of the two, but some guys just like the 3-blade aesthetic and/or need a lighter prop. The 200RV weighs 49 lbs while the 151 weighs 29 lbs due to it's much smaller hub (which therefore requires a higher pressure prop governor). I literally built my RV-3B around the 151 because of the light weight and the fact that the 200RV isn't made to fit an O-320. Personally, I don't think 3-blade props look any better, and they can make taking your cowl off/on slightly more hassle, but 29 lbs is truly remarkable, and with the "OptiQ" airfoil it should be a good performer.

In the final analysis each builder much weigh which factors are most important to him/her and select a prop accordingly. Yes, one can rationalize the relatively small differences in top speed on these props as "not a big difference", but when you pull up next to your buddy and have a 2-5 mph advantage the difference becomes "priceless" as you slowly walk away. C'mon, fess up, tell me you don't know that feeling! ;-)
 
Randy wrote:

"...the 200RV is still the more efficient prop, but certainly not by a wide margin. I sure like the lighter weight, lower noise, and lack of any rpm restrictions."

I was always perplexed by Whirlwind advertising no rpm restrictions, but then "recommending" that certain RPM ranges be avoided. My understanding is that they are simply copying the restricted ranges straight from Hartzell's research, which seems a bit silly since the Whirlwind prop is certainly not a copy of the Hartzell. Anybody have any further info on this?

I did buy the Whirlwind. No flight time yet, but it sure does look nice.

Erich Weaver
 
Dear Bob

Bob Axsom said:
The pilot has no way to directly change the pitch which was my original concern. However, if you reduce the diameter the load on the engine is reduced and the pitch must be increased to maintain the same RPM. Up to a point, the aircraft speed will increase with each reduction in diameter. For a given prop/engine/airplane combination there is one diameter that will give maximum aircraft speed. This can be found experimentally as done by Sulivan Propeller but the cost is to find the optimum you have to go beyond the peak and that means to get the peak aircraft speed you have to buy replacement blades and cut them down to the diameter that produced the maximum aircraft speed. Bob Axsom
Yes that is true, dia is critical. In general for RV's with Hartzell's 72" are more efficient (faster) than a 74" for high speed cruise. Going less than 72" is academic because most Hartzells have a min 72" dia limitation. Hartzell does make some 68" dia props for the Lancair's. So Hartzell is very aware of twist and dia in optimizing for the airframe. However when we talk about optimization we are talking about fractions of a percent.

Look at the old standard, the C2YK/F7666-4 used for RV's for years. This was a common prop hub/blade used on early Mooneys and Piper Arrows, which have similar cruise speeds as a RV, so it was a good match. Now enter the Blended airfoil PROP, C2YR-1BF/F7496-2 or -4. This is a gain of about 3.5 mph over the older prop. That is fantastic. Here is Vans test data (click to enlarge):



So from 205.4 to 208.9 mph, about 1.8%, is phenomenal. The BA prop should be called the RV-prop, because that is exactly what it was optimized for, RV's with nominal 180 hp engines and cruise speeds in the low 200's mph at typical cross country altitudes (8,500 feet).

The point is anyone claiming 10 mph increase for their prop are either comparing it to a prop that's a poor match for the airframe, either because it is just a bad match or the airframe/engine is highly modified or is exaggerating.

Hartzells are about as good as it gets in efficiency. You have to be very radical in HP or drag reduction (clipped wings, chopped canopy and so on).

When you have a company like Hartzell, with their background, set out to make a prop spacifically for a particular airframe its going to be a good match. Now Hartzell no doubt made some compromises to give good overall performance, with emphasis on normal cruise at normal altitudes with a normal engine. Altitude BTW makes a difference in optimal prop design. So even with a given airframe there are many factors to consider. No prop is optimal at all conditions, however C/S props are have a way broader sweet spot than a FP which is truly a one trick pony, all other operations are significant compromise. Still a C/s prop can't change its twist, airfoil shape or diameter in flight. So if you choose to make some radical change in your C/S prop for say WOT, max speed at sea level, you will take a hit in all other flight regimes. Its all about trade-offs.

Bob unless you are going to Reno and had a radical plane, prop changes will not make much difference. Now as I said, keep the prop leading edge and back smooth as glass and waxed. This will gain a MPH or two.

Bob you plane is fairly stock, but if you start to significantly reduce airframe drag, radically decrease drag or increase HP, than the prop you have would start to became even less ideal. Obviously the new BA prop is a good start. I am still running the old C2YK/F7666, but the BA prop is what I'd like to upgrade to.

I am not sure why you don't make your cowl into a Holy cowl, or a cowl with small, wide spaced, round inlets, with a smooth sealed connection to a plenum, aka Sam James cowl? That is worth 8 mph, plus/minus a few. The cowl change would give you most bang for your buck. You can MAKE your own cowl from your existing one and your own plenum with your existing baffles. Cost will be small, time and effort who knows. A 100 hours? Of course fiberglass is involved to glass in new round inlets. (I can help size them for you.) The plenum can be made with sheet metal top and some fiberglass transitions (diffusers) to lead into the plenum box.

Just suggesting the cowl as the best mod you could make, and I would not fret on your prop too much, it will only gain you so much speed. A BA prop will be good for 3.5 mph over what you have; it cost less than $6,000 minus what you can get for your own prop. The cowl may be a few $100.

As far as Randy's comments, he did great work. Van's tables uses some of Randy's data, but as you can see the 200RV prop is slower than the BA prop and not much better than the good old HC-C2YK/F7666. However again to make my main point, difference in prop performance is very small between the top contenders. The MT's of course are slower simply because their wood core material requires a thicker airfoil. Many MT props marketed for RV's are sold very slow planes. One size does not fit all. A prop must be optimize for a spacific airframe and engine to get the most out of it. The 200RV and Hartzell BA are about as good as it gets, with the old HC-C2YK/F7666, like you and I have, is still pretty good after a few decades.

Just keep your prop clean, smooth, waxed and make sure the leading edge profile is perfect. What perfect means is a bit of a secret, however as the leading edges wear as they get dressed out from nicks, it looses its airfoil shape. When I say secret, some have different profiles they file into the prop. Warning! If you don't know what you are doing I'd not whittle on your prop, get someone to do it. You only have so much meat to remove, take great care to remove minimal material, no sharp edges and blend ratios of 10 to 1. Prop design is ART and Science.
 
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Im trying to find data that illustrates prop efficiency differences at different prop speeds. Is there any such animal floating around?

The confusion: The texts Ive seen suggest a prop tip speed around 0.9 mach is supposed to provide the most efficient performance. The ad hoc data reported here seem to suggest that slower tip speeds are more common. Given average sized RV propellers (68-70" diameter) and normal engine speeds (I'm assuming <2700 rpm), the tip speeds calculate out to much lower mach numbers than should be ideal.

Ive read that it is a good idea to include a speed vector with tip speed equasion to account for for the forward velocity of the aircraft. That might account for some of the discrepency. Any comments?
 
Fixed vs Constant Speed

I love reading these articles. I have owned 2 RV6's and flown 5 or 6 more with all varieties of props. Here's my 2 cents worth. Both of my personal RV's came with fixed pitch wooden props. One Sterba and the other was a Sensinich cruise prop. Both were said to be max cruise props. I replaced both of these with a fixed pitch composite prop by Craig Catto. In both cases, I gained 8-10 knots in cruise level flight (gps over the ground) and 200 fpm in climb. Several friends of mine who fly constant speeds were really amazed at the performance. Of course I couldn't match thier climb speeds but I was only off by about 400 fpm. The big differences came in the amount of vibration and noise that the metal constant speeds produced and the added cost of maintenance and weight. Being a KISS kind of guy I will always opt for the fixed pitch. My first RV 6 with a worn out 0320 150HP cruised at 190 mph at 2500 rpm. (Read my article on speed mods on this site.) I was clocked at 164 knots average speed over a 100 mile triangular course at the Sun 100 air race. By the way, the props cost $1200.00 complete with leading edge tape for rain.
 
Good Steady Observations George

Thanks George as usual a thoughtful post.

I have sent Sulivan Propeller an e-mail to inquire about cost but I couched my request in such reserved terms that they no doubt consider me a waste of time in a busy work-a-day world. I have the money set aside to upgrade my instrument panel with a GNS430 with the forthcoming WAAS upgrade but speed and travel are all that matter to me (until I get on a tough approach with minimal equipment). I would (secretly have already) seriously consider dumping the gadget for a pure maximum performance speed increase. I do not care a whit about fun flying, etc. I would secretly like to ease the throttle and prop full forward and out run every RV in the sky - period. When I fly, I want to be going somewhere, fast!

My RV-6A is not stock for speed - it is worse because, just the opposite of a clipped wing, I have a 1.5 foot increase in wingspan which is a compromise for "bolt-on" range provided by 17 gallons of extra fuel.

Given that speed disadvantage (I like range as much as speed) I am progressively modifying the airflow inside the cowl with the intent to reduce the air mass flow to the level necessary to cool the engine without excess. In other words reduce cooling drag.

When I fly, the plane is waxed (prop included and it is in pristine condition) and it is as slick as it can be. However, when I go to 2,700 RPM, WOT, leaned for max speed it just feels like it is not flying as fast as it should. I do not want to go into propeller theory but actual propeller performance in my specific application. I am not shy about it, I want maximum performance in terms of speed and I know instinctively that I am not getting it. Hartzell and any other manufacturer can only provide their generic product. The Blended Airfoil design is just an improved generic product. There are compromises in the propeller system design to provide good performance for all of the applications that the general pilot population wants to put them to. I want to go as fast as my RV-6A will go in a straight line and I seriously believe now that an expert could tune my propeller system to achieve my desire by reducing the diameter to the exact dimension necessary to cause an energy absorbing pitch change to the maximum angle before inefficiencies cause a thrust reduction. I am not opposed to shaving margins and sacrificing other performance parameters to gain speed in a calculated and serious manner. Focus is very important here - either I want all out speed with range or I want a general application airplane that compromises excellence in all areas. I want the former. I think Sullivan Propeller could help but I do not have enough information to be sure so I think and plot and look at cooling drag - for now.

As for the James Cowl the finished products look nice but I do not believe I have all I can get out of what I have now. To make a "me too" jump to the James Cowl would have a serious impact on my experimental efforts to improve performance. I cannot have a breakthrough if I choose to copy the current popular lead and I need the stimulation provided by creative desire.

Ah well, this is a lot of words to say I haven't given up yet. Thanks for trying to help me avoid mistakes.

Bob Axsom
 
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I think several people have posted that max speed was not achieved at 2700rpm with their prop combos and I know this to be a fact from other friends with RVs and C/S Hartzells. Prop efficiency is almost certainly lower at higher rpm. The question is, is prop efficiency at the lower rpm and likely lower hp, overall faster or slower? Only a dyno comparison, exact flight testing and some math could prove this for a given engine, airframe, prop configuration.

Although apples to oranges, I can vary blade twist but not full blade pitch with my IVO. You can certainly get outside the two ends of the efficiency ranges. Low twist and you make lots of noise and go slow with lots of rpm, too much and you go slow and can hear the cavitation and vibration that goes with it.

The sweet spot for best cruise is at 2045-2090 prop rpm for my combo. IVO had originally told me to gear for 2000-2200 in cruise. The MTs on alternate engines seem to be quite good in the 1900-2250 rpm range. Obviously this varies with speed but I agree with Bob that the Hartzell may not be best for cleaned up RVs. It is designed for standard airframes and engines.

More flight testing please. We already have lots of conjecture here.
 
Bob Axsom said:
. I would secretly like to ease the throttle and prop full forward and out run every RV in the sky - period. When I fly, I want to be going somewhere, fast!

Bob Axsom

Bob,

These could be the best two sentences that have ever been posted on these groups! Surely there are a lot of others that have those same kinds of daydreams who will likely get a kick out of your post too.

As for the friend I told you about originally... His prop just happened to be set up for his Lancair 320, hence a Lyc 0-320 under the cowl. My 9a, 0-320 under the hood also. He offered to let me come to his hanger and install his prop to try on my plane about a year ago. He suggested that we go up and collect some data with my prop and then do the same with his. Since I didn't have the intestinal fortitude to let Sullivan bend on my brand new Hartzell I didn't waste his time. Now I kind of wish that I had just to have some real info to share. At this point George is sounding like the little voice in the back of my mind that kept me from doing it, only George is giving reasons. My little voice was ignorant but pushy.

Giving this a little more thought I came up with another idea that you might look into. There is a man named Earl Hibler who races a Glassair fixed gear taildragger and he is sponsored by Sullivan. I met and flew with Earl many years ago while we were trying to figure out a couple of problems with autopilots in airplanes he was working with. He is an A&P, and an AI who is current and active in the field. He is good at what he does and he is very much like you. Simply, he likes to go fast. Why don't you call Sullivan again and ask for Earls number at his place of business. Tell him what you want and see if his experience with the prop mods are for you. He certainly has the resume to lead you in the right direction. Keep us posted on what you find.

Best,
 
I asked Cris Furguson his view today

Today was the EAA Chapter 732 meeting and I had the opportunity to ask Cris Ferguson about Sulivan Propeller at Hayward and his reported Reno Biplane class work. He confirmed the fact and the quality of the work. He said that Brian Sullivan and his wife run the company but they have an expert that works the magic on the props. He also told me that they got Jeff Lo's biplane over 300 MPH at Reno this year with a Catto prop on one of the straight aways. They are seriously considering an attack on the world speed record for biplanes (in the 330 range) that has stood for approximately 70 years.

Bob Axsom
 
why be without a constant speeding prop if you can afford it?

constant speeding propellers keep the engine at pre set speed,which determines the power used according to the power curve of the engine. set at the speed of maximum horsepower,the prop will keep the engine under maxload at that horsepower thus maximising performance.set at another speed it will keep it at that particular horsepower at that rev speed.this could be 75 % cruise/75% power which could be 5% different in revs. why ever be without one ,a human could never duplicate the accuracy,hence performance of a constant speeding prop using a manual pitch change prop
 
heavy constant speeding props

I don't think he was asking if FP or C/S is better, however I think you are wrong on two points.


Rob I have to disagree, fwd CG is often a good thing. First some RV's with FP props are tail heavy, like the RV-7, which is designed for metal C/S prop. With my Hartzell and O360 I am still a little heavy in the tail. If I had a wood prop I could not carry any bags. Of course more prop weight means fwd CG, but that is a good thing in some cases.

My RV-4, I flew over 1000 hours, had a C/S extended hub Hartzell on a O320. It put me right near the fwd CG solo, which was fine. I just needed full nose up trim on approach. However when I traveled with my girlfriend (120 lbs) and all kinds of bags and camping gear (all aft CG), I was glad to have the nose weight. With a light prop I would be way aft CG.

Aerobatics with a C/S is a dream. To say a FP is better for aerobatics is not correct IMHO. When have you seen any Prop acro pilot or serious acro plane with a FP? Set the C/S prop and loop and forget engine controls, as you roll and loop without the RPM's going overspeed and throttle jockeying.

As far as the props you mention they cost way more, cost more to repair and are less efficent than a metal Hartzell or Sensenich. That is just the way I see it. Cheers

airmaster cp332 constant speeding propeller weighs 29 lbs. there is better technology every day being introduced. 29 lb is not that heavy!
 
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