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Flap Rod - Danger or Not?

Jonathan Cude

Jonathan Cude

Active Member
Sorry for Breaking the message up... it must be too long or something... here goes, its a 3 parter...

So I built the Flap Pushrods for my RV-7A. I have to say I thought they looked really small. I have heard buzz of these suckers failing and thought maybe I would look into it instead of paying attention in class... here's what I got.
 
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Flap Rod Equations, Sizing, and Material Info

Material Properties
Aluminum 6061-T6
Yield Strenght = 36KSI
Youngs = 10,000 KSI

Section Properties
Rod Length (pin to pin) = 6.625"
Rod OD = .3125"
Rod ID = .1965"
Rod Wall Thickness = .058"
Rod Cross Section Area = .25*PI*(.3125^2-.1965^2) = .04637 in.^2
Rod Cross Section Moment of Inertia = .25*PI*(Ro^4-Ri^4) = 3.949E^-4 in.^4

From Euler's Buckling Equation:

Critical Load = (E*I*PI^2)/(L^2)

E=Young's Modulus
I=x-sec moment of inertia
L=length of column

If we insert the values into the equation, we get:

(10,000,000*.0003949*3.1416^2)/(6.625^2) = 888#

Critical yield stress at this load is calculated from the equation:

(Critical Load)/(x-sec Area) = 888/.04637 = 19.15 KSI
***NOTE: Critical yield stress < Yield stress, therefore buckling failure will occur first!
 
Flap Rod Considerations

Things to think about:

How about a standard safety factor of 1.5... now the critical load is reduced from 888 lbs to 592 lbs.

For the rod to fail within the 1.5 safety margin (ie exceed 592 lbs), the flap must transfer more than 592 lbs to the pushrod. A hinge moment equation exists to calculate this, but is beyond my thoughts at the moment (no pun intended.)

To save the world and my fingers the rest of the derivation, I made some assumptions and approximations using dynamic pressure and the area of the flap... now I know this is rough, but it can put things into perspective hopefully (any advanced aero guys chime in here please!!!) to give a feel for what we are looking at...

The RV-7/7A Flap might need speeds in the neighborhood of 200 mph to generate the force necessary to exceed the 1.5 margin (592 lbs)... I shudder to think about this, but offer the idea that maybe something else is going to fail before the little flap rod buckles.
 
Realistically a correctly built part should be just fine. However a homebuilder could easily make a less than accurate part with a critically weak area at the end of the threaded portion (ie off axis tapping) that could cause a failure. Tight tolerances are needed and need to be identified on the plans.

In conclusion: a precisely built part is just fine. Van is probably too optomistic with the average builder skill for this part.

Recommendations:

1. Tap rods using a lathe.
2. Use hex or thicker walled rod
3. buy some 4130 pre-made you see in the classifieds.

I made mine in the lathe and they are on the plane (not flown yet!)

Sorry for the length... all discussions, questions, criticisms are vastly encouraged!
 
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They're strong

Jonathan,
There's an easier way. I picked up the phone, called Van's and was told that they'd been tested to 170 MPH and held. (Those itty-bitty aluminum ones that scared me), so I don't lower flaps until I get down around 120 MPH and then no more than 15 degrees. :) Then, after 100 MPH, the rest.
Regards,
 
4130

i agree with all you have said but since i dont have a lathe and 45.00 :rolleyes: for 1.25 worth of tubing i'll get the thicker tubes and make a set of my own. i doubt the aluminium would fail but they are miserably small. van probally visualized a tappered tap that would self center as the tube was being tapped. thus putting the threaded portion past the possible thinned wall. i have a set of hand tapped one that can be tested, less the rod end bearings.
 
I believe that Van calls out max flap extension speed of 110 mph for up to 20 degrees, and 100 mph for 40 degrees. I think the supplied aluminum tubing is OK, (there are a lot of RV flying with it for many hours). If it were really a problem, Van would have changed it. Having said that, when I built my -6 in the early '90s, I thought the pushrod looked pretty flimsy, so I used 4130 tubing (maybe 5 dollars).
 
Ignorance is bliss

Sometimes I think it's better to not be bright enough to scare yourself!

I too thought the tubes looked a little flimsy and I noticed that the factory 9A that I got a ride in had hex tubes. But then I checked the NTSB records and could only find one case of an actual failure, and it was caused by not making the hole in the fuse big enough.

Since then, I've seen several at fly-ins with improperly small fuselage holes and even seen bent tubes. It sends a shiver up my spine. Especially when I realize that I've only seen a tiny fraction of all the RV's in the world and if I've run across one with bent flap tubes, there must be dozens.

And yet, only one actual incident.

Thanks for doing the math. It makes me feel better about those guys flying around with bent tubes, now that I know the ultimate limit is 200 mph, Vans tested to 170, and apparently a lot of guys ignore the 100mph Vfe and regularly drop flaps at 120 with no ill effect.

Posts like yours prove that there are lots of smart guys out there doing plenty enough worrying for all of us.

I envy folks who don't worry about stuff and just enjoy the ride.
 
Just so everyone knows. Vans sells the hexagonal rods already drilled and tapped for use with the flaps. Its just another part that they are to "fat, dumb and happy" to upgrade in the kit for everyone. Just pick up the phone and order. Problem solved.

-Jeff
 
just to be sure

Thanks for doing the math. It makes me feel better about those guys flying around with bent tubes, now that I know the ultimate limit is 200 mph, Vans tested to 170, and apparently a lot of guys ignore the 100mph Vfe and regularly drop flaps at 120 with no ill effect.
Click to expand...

My math leaves the ultimate speed sort of unknown, I would be amazed if the true ultimate flap extension speed is within +/- 10% of 200 mph.

All in all, glad to hear Van went to 170 with the "little" rod. Still, the Vne for the flap should be followed... can't think of a reason to fly around at 170+ with my flaps down unless there was an emergency of some sort.

In regards to bent rods... I bent one myself making the cut-out hole. A bent rod in a flying plane really makes me shudder. Its critical load strenght has probably been significantly been reduced.
 
I built my flap rods the way Van's instructed. Made sure they were built correctly, installed them, and went back inside to bed and had a good night's sleep. I don't anticipate a change in that -- at least not on that subject. ;)
 
Pushrods

I too had some concerns about the tube size after reading the NTSB report. According to the report or Van's I don't quite remember, the hole in the fuselage was too small and "rubbed" the side wall of the pushrod down making it thinner.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a very tin wall section where the threads are. That is the area the concerns me. I will be replacing the "factory" parts with 4130 parts.

You don't need a lathe to tap these parts on center and straight. All you need is a drill press and a good drill press vise. Place the tube in the vise and have it extend through the center hole in the drill press table, tighten vise. Place your tape drill in the chuck and drill the tube to the proper size and depth. With the tap drill extending into the tube, clamp the drill press vise down to the table. Now the chuck and the tube are aligned. Remove the tap drill and Install the tap in the chuck. Using the chuck key as the lever turn the chuck and advance the drill arbor and start tapping. Use lubricant as needed. Works like a charm.

Paul
 
Sort of on topic...

I bought my RV-8. With about two hundred hours on it, I noticed that there was a slight hitch in the motion when I raised the flaps to 0 degrees. I did a careful inspection and found that the bolt holding the rod to the back edge of the flap on one side had no nut and was trying to come loose. The only reason it didn't come loose wasbecause the force on the bolt was from the side.

More investigation revealed that the builder couldn't get the proper nut on the bolt and so used a different nut that had worked itself off. He did it correctly on the other side.

I fixed the problem and now more closely check the flap rods.

I talked to Van's about it and they told me what nut to use and pointed out that they had tested an asymetric flap condition and said there was still plenty of aileron authority to correct for one flap down and one up.

Bruce
N297NW
 
Safety Is #1 in my book

Hmmmmm this flap pushrod thing really got out of hand for some reason. All I have to say is that SAFETY IS #1 IN MY BOOK. How many of you have purchased a VAN'S RV airplane already flying??????? Those that did listen up because you have no clue who tapped the flap pushrods, you don't know if they used the right size tap, you don't know if they used the correct type of lubricant for tapping aluminum, you don't know if they were tapped in a lathe or by hand. I almost lost a very good friend because of this Flap Pushrod issue. Yes he survived and I saw the RV-6 and it was mangled to JUNK. It was in Dodge City, KS The failure caused one flap to raise and the other stayed down, it happened so fast that he had no control and it cartwheel down the runway. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH VAN'S DESIGNED FLAP PUSHROD TUBES. It is the FAULT OF THE BUILDER who tapped them incorrectly / not straight or allowed them to rub when the flaps go up or down because the hole they pass through wasn't cut big enough. Yes the round Aluminum .3125" pushrods are plenty strong as I've talked to VAN's about it and have done the math myself. How many builders have alodined or treated the insides of the aluminum pushrods to prevent corrosion??? Just like all of the other Aluminum tubes on the Airplane need treated. I've looked at 100's of RV's with the flaps down and I can't believe that some pilots fly their RV's with these pushrods rubbing or either slightly buckled or the heim joint is only engaged a few threads or not tapped straight. I've even seen some that were dented, how they got dents in them I don't know, but .031" wall thickness is just cheap. Why build a $100,000 airplane and put a .50cent piece in this area???? Does not make since to me. It's all about paying attention to detail and doing the job right the first time. Not everyone has a presision lathe either. Why put a pair of lightweight pieces of aluminum in the area,,,, what are you saving 2 ounces of weight, WOW big deal!!! With the 4130 flap pushrod tubes if machined correctly you just don't have to worry about them. The NTSB reports do not list two other failures because they were not reported,,,,no pilots license, no insurance, get the picture. Builders / flyers do whatever you want but SAFETY IS #1. It's not about saving 2 ounces of weight. Install the 4130 pushrod tubes or call Van's and order the HEX aluminum and upgrade them. The .3125" O.D. round pushrods I feel should be replaced if there is a question about them, they are fine if tapped and installed correctly. Cheap insurance in my opinion.
 
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Safety #1..... for old RV planes.

Jonathon Cude my friend.... I see that you are a Mechanical & AeroSpace Engineer,,, that is great and I trust all of your input and support with your knowledge with this topic...... When someone comments about selling pre-made /// 'Suckers' selling a quality part to help SAVE someones LIFE causes concern to me! Why are you so negative??? I have seen builders do stupid stuff and the average JOE Blow builder is not familiar with machining or tapping critical parts OK... I'm talking about SAFETY here. All I'm trying to do is SAVE someone later down the road OK. IF SAFETY is not an issue with you... then.... Do what you want.. I've seen the wrecks etc... I myself would like to see ALL RV'S fly and not get into accidents!!! When accidents happen OUR INSURANCE RATES GO UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who wants that???????????? I'm not out to make a buck by manufacturing or selling Chrome Moly 4130 Flap Pushrod Tubes!!!! I want everyone to be safe and THAT is very important to me. Call Van's and order the HEX Aluminum or install 4130 round tubes. The old 5/16" O.D. aluminum tubes I feel, is not an area to save an ounce of weight.
 
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rv969wf said:
I'm not out to make a buck by manufacturing or selling Chrome Moly 4130 Flap Pushrod Tubes!!!!
Click to expand...

With all due respect, this seems a little hard to believe. At $45 a set, you will definitely turn a nice profit. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, and they look like a very nice piece, but to deny making a buck while carrying on about safety comes across as insincere.
 
Hmmmmmmm

When I machine and prep anything or a pair of 4130 Flap Pushrod tubes to custom length and powder coat them I spend 2 hours on a pair of Flap Pushrods..OK.. $45 is cheap for two hours of work plus material this and that. If a person CNC'd these things in mass quantity the cost would be very low. I will not send out a part that is not quality or to spec. I've seen builders get in a hurry and slop around with quality work. NOT GOOD.. I mostly Blueprint and Build engines and there is NO room for error on anything.... I don't care what the part is..... With Airplanes or Anything,,, Safety is firsts.... I don't think this is an area to save 2 ounces of weight on the airplane.
 
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So I ran the numbers 10 days ago, posted them finally at 4 am this morning. It was coincidental that a pre-made source became available. Yes I am almost (December 16, 2006) an Aerospace and Mechanical Engineer from Oklahoma State University.

My motive was to shed light on the part and offer up my findings to the building community. I must admit, I rarely post but often read messages due to the large amounts of oppinion data presented and rather small amount of proven data submitted (how ironic, I just presented my oppinion here... I hope this comment doesn't start a new thread!!!)

To Alan Judy of Beaver, OK:
1. My post was meant to inform, not bash any parts vendor.
2. Given your parts for sale, I actually figured this would generate positive interest in your rods not negative.
3. Suckers is a nuetral adjective used in my dialect to describe many things. (being from OKLAHOMA, Alan, you should take no offense... as none was intended)... the term has also been removed from my previous post when referring to your parts.
4. Overkill is a term I stand by... and used by yourself as well.
 
In your messages and your classified add you draw attention to your desires:
1. Safety --> your part increases safety margins... Great!
2. Experienced Machinist since 1982 --> as stated in your classified add, I am humbly going to have to question your skills as you claim 2 hours per pair.
3. Not making a buck --> your own fault, but I am willing to help, for FREE, with engineering suggestions to increase your efficiency to hopefully reduce your selling price. Your margins CAN GO UP AND YOUR SELLING PRICE CAN GO DOWN. From an economics standpoint this would ultimately increase the number of your units entering the field and helping ensure this part never fails, thereby increasing safety and ?reducing insurance rates? (what a mouthful!)

To Alan and All: I believe this part to be worth paying attention to, that is why I took the time to analize it. Thank you all for allowing me to express this, hopefully it will help to increase builder awareness in this area.

P.S. Is there a size limit to these posts? anything over about 2 paragraphs won't go through!!! again sorry for having to break the messages up...
 
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Jonathan Cude said:
...P.S. Is there a size limit to these posts? anything over about 2 paragraphs won't go through!!! again sorry for having to break the messages up...
Click to expand...
Perhaps our administrator (MR Doug Reeves) can help you here. There may be a limit but you surely have not reached it with your posts. Some of our regulars are quite prolific in their posts and I have seen them an order of magnitude longer than yours.

-mike
 
Jonathan Cude said:
In your messages and your classified add you draw attention to your desires:
1. Safety --> your part increases safety margins... Great!
2. Experienced Machinist since 1982 --> as stated in your classified add, I am humbly going to have to question your skills as you claim 2 hours per pair.
Click to expand...
Jonathan,
I am going to have to come to Alan's defense here (by-the-way, there is nothing to be gained by ad hominem attacks and we all would benefit if we could remember that).
I respectfully suggest that you prepare a set of drawings with appropriate material callouts and submit them to any machine shop in the business of making money. You would be extremely lucky to find a shop willing to charge less than one shop hour for anything, which, in my part of the country, would cost a minimum of $60.
$45, while not cheap, is not exhorbitant either. If the machine tools are already paid for and you treat that resource as free (it is not), you are not considering the true economics of this situation and it may seem a little pricey. But if you have a $100,000 machine you're trying to make the mortgage on, the order needs to be many hundreds if not thousands of parts to get the individual costs down.

-mike
 
I don't get it... what's with all the hubbub over $45 for a pair of 4130 push rods? All you gotta do is call Vans and get a pair of VA-256 flap push rods, $12 each, $24 for the pair. I bought two but haven't flown 'em yet; they're pretty heavy duty and drilled/tapped by Vans, so I don't have to worry about screwing anything up.

Easy.
 
scare tactics even though unintentional

they used to do this at sears,,,scare the cutomer to death then offer up a solution that will make it all better. just offer the parts for sale on the basis of their strengths. i charge 70 bucks an hour for a trans overhaul i know the time is worth it. so 3 rods out of 9000(4500) failed wow thats like .001% most would argue those are acceptable margins

note: the math is wrong as pointed out by gil should be .033 another .967 and we'll have a whole 1% :D
 
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To clarify the post by alan judy about the airplane he saw in dodge city that the flap push rod failed on was the second time that airplane was wrecked. I believe the push rod was damaged in the first wreck and failed because of prior damage.
 
4130 rod pricing

The man can set his own price if he desires. If it is too much then he will not sell many.

If the need is real, and 4130 is the answer, then I would contract out 50 or more pairs of rods with a local machine shop and the price per pair would drop significantly. Then this saving could be passed on to customer with lower prices. If I were only machining a pair every now and then it would be rather expensive and most likely would sell many.


Food for thought.

Paul
 
flap push rod

Jonathan Cude said:
How about a standard safety factor of 1.5... now the critical load is reduced from 888 lbs to 592 lbs.

For the rod to fail within the 1.5 safety margin (ie exceed 592 lbs), the flap must transfer more than 592 lbs to the pushrod. A hinge moment equation exists to calculate this, but is beyond my thoughts at the moment (no pun intended.) ...
Click to expand...
Interesting topic. Assuming your calculations to get to 592 lbs are correct, and they look ok to me, would it be possible to get anywhere near that much force on the flap pushrods? Think about it for a minute...imagine you flipped your wing upside down, and stood on the flaps while they were down (up). Do you think they would survive being stood on by a 200 pound builder? I wonder if the flaps themselves would bend before the pushrod buckles.
 
Vans hex flap pushrods

Vans hex flap pushrods. Can anyone provide a part number? I did a search in the online catalog and didn't come up with anything.
 
hex pushrod part number is VA-256

On my drawing 33, view C-C. The drawing is for both RV-7 and RV-9. and the rod part # seems to be the only difference:
RV-7: F-759A (round)
RV-9: VA-256 (hex)

I wonder why they are different?
 
The flaps on the -7 are "plane" flaps. On the -9, they are "slotted" flaps, so the pushrods are different.
 
Pushrods in fuse kit...

IowaRV9Dreamer said:
On my drawing 33, view C-C. The drawing is for both RV-7 and RV-9. and the rod part # seems to be the only difference:
RV-7: F-759A (round)
RV-9: VA-256 (hex)
Click to expand...
Ahh. I don't have the fuse kit yet; another thing to check when I order. Thanks.
 
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Mel said:
The flaps on the -7 are "plane" flaps. On the -9, they are "slotted" flaps, so the pushrods are different.
Click to expand...
Thanks Mel - I forgot about the difference in flap type. It's interesting that even with different flap types, the drawing calls out the same lengths, rod ends, etc. The only difference is the tube (round or hex). Is the hex tube stronger, and if so is that needed by the slotted flaps?
 
I'm not an aeronautical engineer (don't even play one on TV), but I would guess that the slotted flaps carry less loads. Of course the way they are attached also makes a difference. The "plane" flaps have a continuous hinge, whereas the slotted flaps have individual hinges. You professional types out there feel free to chime in.
 
Get your facts straight...

RV_7A said:
Just so everyone knows. Vans sells the hexagonal rods already drilled and tapped for use with the flaps. Its just another part that they are to "fat, dumb and happy" to upgrade in the kit for everyone. Just pick up the phone and order. Problem solved.

-Jeff
Click to expand...
I may be wrong but if my memory is correct, the hex rods are specifically designated as the part to use on an RV-9 or 9A. It has much larger flaps than the other models with an expectedly higher load on the rod.
That is the reason they are available... not because they should be used on the other models.
 
I don't know about everyone else, but I have bought two VAN's kits to build so that I wouldn't have to engineer or re-engineer anything on a proven design.
So far, all of the pieces that VAN's has provided have been adequate, if his directions and plans are followed correctly, at least for me. (Sure, I have redone some pieces that I didn't get put together to my own standards, but that wasn't VAN's fault.)
I don't know how some of you guys ever get a plane finished.
 
Flap Rod - Danger or Not? Well, as Van's say (certainly for the 8) a Flap Rod failure is containable with aileron... so it would seem not a "Danger" even if it does fail?

As alluded to earlier, the Flap Rod attachments can be a problem. I had to make a "Left" and "Right" spanner to get the nuts tight - and another 8 builder I spoke had done the same...
 
Flap rods

Jonathan Cude said:
So I built the Flap Pushrods for my RV-7A. I have to say I thought they looked really small. I have heard buzz of these suckers failing and thought maybe I would look into it instead of paying attention in class... here's what I got.
Click to expand...

Jonathan,

If you attempt to re-engineer the plane, you'll never get it done. The Van's people have already done that work.

The stock rod is fine if drilled properly and the flap extension speeds are followed. Also make sure the hole in the fuselage allows at minimum a 1/16" clearance in the full range of travel. Build on and don't over analyze everything.

I see you'll have soon have your degree, congrats. Keep in mind that thermometers have degrees and you know where they stick them sometimes.
 
Back to skool

cytoxin said:
they used to do this at sears,,,scare the cutomer to death then offer up a solution that will make it all better. just offer the parts for sale on the basis of their strengths. i charge 70 bucks an hour for a trans overhaul i know the time is worth it. so 3 rods out of 9000(4500) failed wow thats like .001% most would argue those are acceptable margins
Click to expand...

Maybe... but back to skool for you..... :)

3 in 9000 is 1 in 3000 -- which is actually 0.033% per rod...

But it's 0.066% per RV

Your estimate is 33 (or 66) times off... :) ....not even close enough for government work.... :D

gil in Tucson
 
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az_gila said:
Maybe... but back to skool for you..... :)

3 in 9000 is 1 in 3000 -- which is actually 0.033% per rod...

But it's 0.066% per RV

Your estimate is 33 (or 66) times off... :) ....not even close enough for government work.... :D

gil in Tucson
Click to expand...

4500 planes= 9000 rods- 3 rods failed, i dont think there is a trend. i think three builders made a faulty piece or simply overlaoded them
guess i should watch the quick math :eek: either way its still negligible :p
 
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jbDC9 said:
I don't get it... what's with all the hubbub over $45 for a pair of 4130 push rods? All you gotta do is call Vans and get a pair of VA-256 flap push rods, $12 each, $24 for the pair. I bought two but haven't flown 'em yet; they're pretty heavy duty and drilled/tapped by Vans, so I don't have to worry about screwing anything up.

Easy.
Click to expand...

When I drilled and tapped mine on the 8, I screwed the bearing in and gave it a test pushing my thumbs and prying it back. SNAP!. I quickly went with the hex rods after that. I can easily see how they would fail. The average joe like me drilling and tapping round tube leaves a lot to be desired and plenty of room for dorking it up. I could feel a lot of slop in the bearing threads when screwed in. It was pretty easy to tell I did not do a good job. I tossed em in the garbage and put the hex rod on.

During installation, it became necessary to bend the hex rod a bit to get the geometry right on the up and down movement clearing the fuse. It took a severe beeting to get the hex rod to bend. Its tough stuff.

I recommend the hex rod as standard installation.
Best,
 
I STRONGLY recommend against bending this rod in any way. All forces on this rod are in compression and any bending will weaken it. It needs to be straight!
 
engineering vs experience

You can do all the engineering tests and math you want but I'm going with experience. There was an accident which occurred on landing to a local RV pilot a couple of years ago. It was during the landing flare and rolled the plane upside down. The occupants survived with no injuries but the plane was badly bent. This was a very experienced pilot with lots of hours. After this the local group of RV pilots started looking at the existing flap rods and found several that looked like they might have a problem. Regardless of why the rod failed, I'll guarantee you that everyone in this neck of the woods have either the octagonal rod that Van's sells or one made from 4130 steel.

Bill Anton
RV-8 77 hours
Satanta, KS
 
Mel said:
I STRONGLY recommend against bending this rod in any way. All forces on this rod are in compression and any bending will weaken it. It needs to be straight!
Click to expand...
I agree with you, Mel!
I am not a DAR and am only a lowly engineer but I would consider not passing a plane where that rod was bent.
I'm sure the design intent was for a pure compression load.

-mike
 
I think this thread has about run its course. Lets talk about something really dangerous like the front gear that has failed many times.
 
Flap pushrod failure while not in motion.

I think this thread has about run its course. Lets talk about something really dangerous like the front gear that has failed many times.
__________________
Doyle Reed, Casper 2

I agree with you Doyle, this thread has run it's course. Just a note and I'll try keep it short. I received lastnight a private e-mail: name withheld, this individual e-mailed me about a flap pushrod failure on his RV-6 while sitting on the ramp not in motion. First he did not build the plane. He told me this happened about a year ago while at a fly-in and he left the flaps up instead of down. Apparently someone stepped on one of the flaps by the large footprint that he noted and when he arrived back to his airplane one flap was dangling down. The weight of the person stepping on the flap pulled the heim joint out of the aluminum tube. He examined what happened and what it looked like to him was that the threads inside the flap pushrod tubes had been tapped without proper lubricant and were very very gouged / rough and sloppy. He later examined the other flap pushrod tube and the same thing, both were tapped with either a bad tap, to large of tap, no lubricant, etc. and the heim when threaded into the rods were sloppy and loose. That's why when someone stepped on the flap it pulled the threads. In flight with flaps down this would have not happened because they are under compression. Just passing on what happened to one individual.
 
Sounds to me like somebody needed the Stupid Stick treatment for crawling all over someone else's airplane as well.....
 
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