Camguard Tech Director Tells Why Not To Use 15W-50

I sent an email this week to Ed Kollin at Camguard asking his opinion of Aeroshell 15W-50, as I had heard some conflicting opinions. I asked him to provide some facts to help me decide what to use. He was kind enough to reply with the following email. I am copying it here for everyone--I hope you find it useful as well:
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Hello Karl,

I do not like or recommend either of the two semi-synthetic oils that are
available, Aeroshell 15W-50 or Exxon Elite. Both contain PAO synthetic
basestock which in my opinion, is the worst possible basestock for use in
aircraft (but great for cars). Aircraft engines contaminate their oil with a
lot of blow-by fuel. PAO is horrible in dealing with contamination and
this lead to greater varnish and carbon deposits throughout the engine.

The Aeroshell 15W-50 and Plus oils also contain a triphenyl phosphate
anti-scuff that decomposes and attacks seals in the engine. Camguard
protects seals from this chemical attack.

The Elite (which I did the initial research on when I worked at Exxon
Research) contains a multi-functional (dispersant) viscosity modifier which
holds water and forms a soft brown sludge in cool running aircraft.

I recommend Phillips 20W-50 or Aeroshell W100 oils. And of course with
Camguard as the additive package to prevent rust and deposits, reduce wear
and condition seals.

Regards,

Ed

Edward Kollin
Technical Director
Aircraft Specialties Lubricants

Good to know. I just came out of Phase 1 and went with Aeroshell 15W-50. What process would I have to use to switch over to the Phillips if I wanted to? Can I simply do it during the next oil change or is there some compatibility issues?

Great ... I've been using 15w50 + Camguard in the skyhawk and the 170 ... I've got about 8 cases sitting in the hangar from the OSH Aeroshell discount!

CharlieWaffles said:

Good to know. I just came out of Phase 1 and went with Aeroshell 15W-50. What process would I have to use to switch over to the Phillips if I wanted to? Can I simply do it during the next oil change or is there some compatibility issues?

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Drain dirty oil.
Change filter.
Add Phillips 20W-50
Add 5% Camguard.
Start engine.
Stop engine.
Check for leaks.
If no leaks, go fly.

Ed

I have an 0-320 that has well over 3500 hours since new. I have personally put the most recent 1750 hours on it and have only used 15-50 aeroshell. I still get about 20 hours before I need to add a quart and that takes me to the next oil change.

The engine was run hard in a flight training operation in a C-177 for the first 2000 hours. Then it went into a homebuilt on condition. I pre heat for about 30 minutes with a silicone bonded oil pan heater pad if it is below freezing. I have a oil cooler restrictor to keep oil temps above 185 F in the winter.

Not disputing the thread post but I am happy with multigrade.

My experience also parallels the observations here, if you want a clean on the inside engine run X/C.

F1R said:

I have an 0-320 that has well over 3500 hours since new. I have personally put the most recent 1750 hours on it and have only used 15-50 aeroshell. I still get about 20 hours before I need to add a quart and that takes me to the next oil change.

The engine was run hard in a flight training operation in a C-177 for the first 2000 hours. Then it went into a homebuilt on condition. I pre heat for about 30 minutes with a silicone bonded oil pan heater pad if it is below freezing. I have a oil cooler restrictor to keep oil temps above 185 F in the winter.

Not disputing the thread post but I am happy with multigrade.

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There are a great many people that have had success using Aeroshell 15W-50. However, many people had success using Mobil Av1 synthetic (an all PAO formulation) and we know how well that worked out, Mobil paid for a lot of engines. Proportionately, and by far, I have seen more problems with AS 15W-50 than the straight weight AS oils (or Phillips).

If you are happy with AS 15W-50 then keep using it. I am merely reporting my findings over 25 years of working in the field, testing and formulating lubricant products.

Ed

I didn't know that N761tj was *THE* Ed Kollin of Camguard fame! Thanks again for your help in clarifying the issues with 15W-50.

F1R said:

I have an 0-320 that has well over 3500 hours since new. I have personally put the most recent 1750 hours on it and have only used 15-50 aeroshell. I still get about 20 hours before I need to add a quart and that takes me to the next oil change.

The engine was run hard in a flight training operation in a C-177 for the first 2000 hours. Then it went into a homebuilt on condition. I pre heat for about 30 minutes with a silicone bonded oil pan heater pad if it is below freezing. I have a oil cooler restrictor to keep oil temps above 185 F in the winter.

Not disputing the thread post but I am happy with multigrade.

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Like you I have run nothing but AS 15W50 and had nothing but good luck. I have torn down several engines that use AS 15W50 with no significant wear, or sludge after TBO. I choose to pay the extra for the Aero Shell for this reason. I am sure the other oils are fine as well but I have no experience with them and go with what I know.
I would be cautious about being scared off by the original post.
Ryan

TShort said:

... I've got about 8 cases sitting in the hangar from the OSH Aeroshell discount!

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Ill take it!
2300 hours on my 0320 (never even been topped) and 550 hours on the IO360.
What I didn't know hasn't seemed to hurt me.

I appreciate the science and the experienced observations. However, your best protection is to fly often, .... and fly well.

Gash said:

I recommend Phillips 20W-50 or Aeroshell W100 oils. And of course with
Camguard as the additive package to prevent rust and deposits, reduce wear
and condition seals.

Regards,

Ed

Edward Kollin
Technical Director
Aircraft Specialties Lubricants

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So to clarify, I see there are two Phillips 20W-50 oils. One is the X/C (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/phillipsxc.php) and the other is Type M (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/phillipsoil.php). I believe the type M is straight mineral oil. So which one is Ed referring to here?

Mineral oil for breaking in cylinders, and it's my understanding that Ed does NOT recommend Camguard during that initial break-in time with mineral oil.

Hey, if the discounted 15w/50 is still available...

p.m.me with your price.

My overhauler was so impressed at tear-down with the 2,000 hour first run O-320 core I brought him, he said, "...I'd keep feeding it AeroShell 15w/50 if I were you. This thing was a long way from needing an overhaul..."

My story and I'm sticking to it.

CharlieWaffles said:

So to clarify, I see there are two Phillips 20W-50 oils. One is the X/C (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/phillipsxc.php) and the other is Type M (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/phillipsoil.php). I believe the type M is straight mineral oil. So which one is Ed referring to here?

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The XC.

I use Phillips 20-50XC. Change oil between 25-35 hours or two months or when the plane will sit for three weeks. If going the plane is going to sit, I add Camguard.
Reasons I use Phillips XC:

• Cheap
• Change the oil often, lots of blow by in my big TIO-540-U2A engines.

Tim

F1R said:

I still get about 20 hours before I need to add a quart and that takes me to the next oil change.

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I keep seeing statements like this. I have NEVER had an engine that would go anywhere close to this between quarts. I keep 5-6 qts in it.

My current 850 hour XP-360 gets 4-5 hours between quarts and has excellent compressions. I look inside the cylinders during the pre-purchase and it looked very good. Zero deposits, no scoring, can see honing marks/cross hatching in the cylinder walls.

I don't baby my engines, but I don't abuse them. I'm running at relatively high power settings, LOP, 2,300 rpm if I'm going somewhere. Otherwise I'm ROP and doing formation and mild acro.

Either I'm doing something wrong or the OP has a magical touch. Whats up?

I usually get at least 15-20 hours before getting down a quart. I have an O-320 E2D that has ECi 160 hp cylibders on it (2888 TT, 455 SMOH).

At oil change (25-35 hrs) I add 6 quarts Phillips X/C 20 W 50 and 10 oz of Camguard. After 15-20 hours I am down to 5 quarts on the stick and it seems to hover there. My last oil change was after 26 hours and I added no oil and it was down to 5 quarts.

walkman said:

I keep seeing statements like this. I have NEVER had an engine that would go anywhere close to this between quarts. I keep 5-6 qts in it.

My current 850 hour XP-360 gets 4-5 hours between quarts and has excellent compressions. I look inside the cylinders during the pre-purchase and it looked very good. Zero deposits, no scoring, can see honing marks/cross hatching in the cylinder walls.

I don't baby my engines, but I don't abuse them. I'm running at relatively high power settings, LOP, 2,300 rpm if I'm going somewhere. Otherwise I'm ROP and doing formation and mild acro.

Either I'm doing something wrong or the OP has a magical touch. Whats up?

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I am pretty sure the Lycoming manual stated an average of 1 quart per 20-25 hours as normal and stable. I am not talking from experience, but I just happened to be reading the lycoming manual this weekend.

dhmoose said:

I am pretty sure the Lycoming manual stated an average of 1 quart per 20-25 hours as normal and stable. I am not talking from experience, but I just happened to be reading the a lycoming manual this weekend.

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Lycoming SI 1427C covers maximum allowable oil consumption - http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/t...ating engine Break-In and Oil Consumption.pdf.

The following formula is used to calculate the maximum allowable oil consumption limits for all Lycoming aircraft engines.

0.006 x BHP x 4 ? 7.4 = Qt./Hr.

CharlieWaffles said:

Lycoming SI 1427C covers maximum allowable oil consumption - http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/t...ating engine Break-In and Oil Consumption.pdf.

The following formula is used to calculate the maximum allowable oil consumption limits for all Lycoming aircraft engines.

0.006 x BHP x 4 ? 7.4 = Qt./Hr.

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which is 0.58 qt/hr for my engine.

my current oil consumption rate is identical for all practical purposes to the 5 Lycoming engines I've had. No problems on any of them.