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Tip: The perfect pinhole/weave filler process

bpattonsoa

Well Known Member
Drywall mud. Don't laugh, I took a RV-10 cabin and doors from the raw contoured fiberglass to a finished primer coating in about 14 hours. There is one pinhole.

The first thing to understand is that the pinhole fillers are all some sort of liquid that holds talc (or calcite, mica, gypsum) in suspension and will hopefully flow into a pinhole to fill it. This method puts the talc in the hole and then turns it into a hard solid.

First is the contouring stage where the shape is formed. It includes filling with micro around and on the doors to get a good fit with the cabin top and the glass around the windows (if you do it). It is not included in my 14 hours.

Next is to sand the entire thing with #36 or so paper to open up all the pinholes and expose the weave of the glass. Clean the dust well, blow it out of all the crevices, pinholes and weave. You can see it, especially if you have a pink cabin. I used a small wire brush to scrub the white spots while blowing with an air gun.

Next take drywall mud and thin it out slightly, about 5-10% water, you want it loose but not soupy. Put it on with a hard squeegee, pushing hard to rub it in until it goes into all the holes. Sometimes it takes several passes until you see the mud filling the pinholes and weave. You don't want to leave a lot of extra mud on the surface. Ridges are easy to sand off later. This process is easier to do than explain.

After the mud is dry sand it with a block and #180 or so paper. I use a medium hard foam block. Remove all the surface drywall mud until all that is left is the dots and lines that are filling the pinholes and weave. If you over sand, add more mud and do it again.

Clean off the dust. Do not blow it with an air gun!! You can blow the talc out of the weave at this stage. I did it with a large brush and duster.

Now it is time to turn the talc into a hard filler. Mix some epoxy primer. You don't need as much as you would think, I used about 6 oz to do the complete cabin top and doors. Put it on with a squeegee. The talc will adsorb the primer and turn the color of the primer. Try to avoid leaving lines or drops of primer on the surface. I recommend a soft squeegee, window washing type, about 3-4" wide if you can find one.

When it is cured, sand with a soft block and #320 wet/dry used wet. Just sand enough to make it smooth, don't sand down into the original fiberglass. This is very rewarding because you can see the perfect surface, free of weave of pinholes. If there are any, you can go back and put in more drywall mud and repeat. I must have missed my one pinhole at this stage.

Prime with an epoxy primer and it is ready for paint.

This will work for any fiberglass surface. I got the idea from our local fiberglass expert who turns out some amazing paint jobs on his aircraft in a very short period of time. I did not include any discussion of masking or protection of other surfaces, but the time required is included in my 14 hours.
 
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Bruce, Bob, or anyone else with experience: Does it have to be epoxy primer that's wiped over the cured drywall mud? Or could one use thinned epoxy instead?

I hesitate to choose a primer before I make the "paint myself or professional painter" decision and choose a paint system, as I understand it's best if the primer is from the same line as the top coats.
 
Good idea, but just a clarification: drywall is not made of talc, it is gypsum.

Wondering whether the weight is significant? I would think not, but any idea of how much mud actually is added to the final finish?

Greg
 
I have no idea what Loehle Wonder-Fil is made of but when it is top coated, contrary to the advertisement, only the surface of the powder gets saturated by the coating leaving a powder bomb underneath.

I suspect gypsum will do the same thing.
 
Hmmm....$150K for an RV-10, $4-$10K to paint it, and drywall mud as a filler?

Let's assume you really like the concept of wiped/squeegeed talc pinhole filler cured by the addition of subsequent coatings. If so, perhaps it would be better to use a filler carefully engineered for the job.

Akzo Nobel 28C1 is a qualified product at all the aerospace majors (Bell Helicopter, Boeing, EADS, Lockheed Martin, etc) and costs a whopping $65 per quart plus shipping.

http://www.anac.com/TechnicalDatasheets/AkzoNobel_28c1.pdf
 
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Dan
On the following...
"Akzo Nobel 28C1 is a qualified product at all the aerospace majors (Bell Helicopter, Boeing, EADS, Lockheed Martin, etc) and costs a whopping $65 per quart plus shipping."
Where do you purchase it? I saw a few places selling gallons at over $200 but no Qts. I'd like to try it but I don't need a gallon.
Thanks,
 
You do not want to use drywall mud as a bulk filler. That is the job of micro, bondo, etc. This process starts after the contouring is done. The mud is very porous but I would not want it to be thick. I doubt if any spot was more than 1/32"" thick. It looks like flecks or small dots.

Dried mud is not heavy when dry and I doubt if more than 5% of it is left after sanding. You want to sand until you see mostly the fiberglass and very small bits of dried mud in the pinholes and weave.

I tried a small area using unthinned West system epoxy over the mud. It worked but was much harder to sand. I suspect thinned epoxy would work well.

Not wanting to start a primer war, but I would say that a well curred epoxy primer does not care whose product goes on top. I am planning to fly with this in primer and then sand it when I paint.
 
Hmmm....$150K for an RV-10, $4-$10K to paint it, and drywall mud as a filler?

If its proven to work well by an experienced painter, why not. Talc is used widely in polyurethane paints, gypsum is just a slightly harder mineral. I'll wager to bet that $65 can of primer consists of a pretty high percentage of talc.

The other thing to consider is its impossible to clean most pinholes, so many impurities get trapped in them during the finishing process that never really causes painting issues.
 
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Where do you purchase it? I saw a few places selling gallons at over $200 but no Qts. I'd like to try it but I don't need a gallon.

Well, how about:

http://www.neelyindustries.com/p-4042-28-c-1-pinhole-filler-compound-quart.aspx

Even at $200 a gallon the stuff is cheap compared to the consequences of ad hoc chemistry.

If its proven to work well by an experienced painter, why not. Talc is used widely in polyurethane paints, gypsum is just a slightly harder mineral. I'll wager to bet that $65 can of primer consists of a pretty high percentage of talc.

It absolutely does contain a high percentage of talc. Talc isn't the issue. (POSTSCRIPT - We're both wrong. Got time to chase down a MSDS. The bulk filler in 28C1 is silica flour, i.e. finely ground silica sand.)

I think I'll try toothpaste. Seriously. Contains some kind of inert bulk filler, and dries hard on my sink. Should sand well, and it will give the airplane a nice minty smell ;)
 
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tried and tested.....sorta

I think I'll try toothpaste. Seriously. Contains some kind of inert bulk filler, and dries hard on my sink. Should sand well, and it will give the airplane a nice minty smell ;)

Dan, you must have gone to university, and had to fill those hundreds of tack and staple holes in your dorm walls before you moved out! :D

...and here I thought I invented that!!!
 
Dan, you must have gone to university, and had to fill those hundreds of tack and staple holes in your dorm walls before you moved out! :D

...and here I thought I invented that!!!

Nah, we used the same trick moving out of government quarters at Ft. Sill and Ft. Carson back in the 70s and early 80s. :)
 
Loehle Wonder-Fil for me. I prefer to use a product designed for aircraft rather than a wall at home. Loehle Wonder-Fil did a nice job on the pin holes and yes, I had to spend considerable time applying and sanding to get it to an acceptable level. 613 hours to prep, primer and paint the airplane prior to assembly. All this done in pieces before final assembly. I may be slow but we got a decent paint job. I am not a professional painter and I really appreciate aviation painters as they are outstanding people.

Pat Garboden
Katy, TX
RV9A N942PT

First flight scheduled for 9/14/13 in Wichita, KS
Dues paid.
 
Ah, the illusive magic "pin hole filler". What hasn't been tried? Seems like most everything has been sprayed, brushed, squeegeed, and squirted on our few fiberglass parts. I don't have any sympathy for you guys. I built one of Burt Rutan's "flying port-a-potties" as they are often referred to in this forum. Talk about honing your finishing skills. Once you built the entire airframe, you were maybe HALF done.

Best stuff I could find (and I've tried many ways to fill pin holes) is to thin out some high quality body filler (not BONDO) and squeegee on a skim coat. Dries fast, adheres well, and fills the pin holes if thinned down. Other than that, it's prime, fill the pin holes, sand, prime, fill........well, you get the idea.

I might have to try the drywall mud as I finish the -12.
 
Loehle Wonder-Fil for me. I prefer to use a product designed for aircraft rather than a wall at home.

Before we get too wrapped around the axle about fillers, paint, etc, we need to keep in mind that nearly all finishing products we use on our planes were designed for some application other than aviation. Just because a product has an airplane on the label doesn't mean it hasn't been repurposed from some other application. Most likely our epoxies come from the marine or automotive industries. That is definitely the case for those of us who used PPG automotive fillers and finishes on our RVs.
 
The secert is out...

I learned this from a composites expert who has been building composite planes and race cars for over 30 years. He learned about it while building Formula One cars in England for Williams Renault and said "don't tell anyone, its a secert". We have used this on three Long EZ style of aircraft (100%) composite prior to painting. It has worked well and the paint jobs have really held up well. It makes the final finishing much less labor intensive and yields a good surface. As long as you only use it for covering the ?pin holes? and not as a filler for big craters that would leave a ?powder bomb? underneath you will be ok. I haven?t gotten to the painting stage on my 8 yet but it is what I was planning on using for the fiberglass parts.

Scott
 
I must state that I am not trying to save money on my -10 (just ask ACS, Vans, Aerosport, PlanePower and Stein about my accounts), just time. I have finished a lot of fiberglass while building my 15 meter glider, my -6A and while being Crew Chief for Bad Intentions, a Reno SuperSport racer which had a bunch of fiberglass built by me. I also have painted three aircraft, the above listed. I have also spent way too much time in my life filling pinholes, spraying primer, filling pinholes, spraying primer, filling ..... etc seems like forever.

So this time I asked the local fiberglass expert who finishes other peoples glass (only) airplanes about his technique. He produces paint jobs that rival Oshkosh winners in an amazing short period of time. I don't know how many Lancair 4's he has built, but it is more than three.

It took one application of a very simple process to produce a primer coat ready for final paint. It ain't aircraft but it is totally effective.

It would be interesting to try an experiment to see how this works as a filler beyond pinholes and fabric weave. The area of concern is how well the epoxy primer (or thinned epoxy) penetrates the dry compound. Where it penetrates completely you have the same as you can buy in a can for $200/gallon. Someone mentioned the nightmare of a layer of soft dust under your paint and is why I filled with micro.

Here how to find out. Make some narrow wood strips that are tapered from, say, !/4" to zero about 12" long and put them about 1" apart on another piece of wood with some wax paper. Fill with dry wall compound and sand when it cures. Finish the resultant strips of drywall mud with epoxy primer, West System epoxy both thinned and unthinned, and any other thing (except toothpaste) that might penetrate and act as a binder. After they cure, remove the strips and find how much each of the materials will penetrate. If it will work on thick layers, it would make finishing a lot easier.
 
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I have to say that my initial reaction is concern over eventual delamination due to lack of adequate adhesion by the soft filler substrate. Many years ago, delamination issues was reported with Featherfill over fiberglass. Featherfill is a two part hardening application, but it's also fairlly soft after cure. After other filling systems came out, use of Featherfill fell to the wayside.

To fill FG weave patterns takes a lot more filler than just filling pin holes.
No denying using sheetrock mud would be easy to apply & sand!!

I just have to say that I've known Bruce P for 20+ years through work and play. His tenacity & craftsmanship is AMAZING! I've not seen Bruce take "short cuts" that he hadn't proven out before hand. He's an engineer's engineer!
Go Bruce!
 
Saw this thread a few weeks back and said then that I would try it. Well this past weekend, I worked on the wheel pants and decided to give it a try.

On one wheelpant, I started using the traditional method of using spot putty. On the other, I used DAP Joint Compound. WOW, no comparison. I quickly stopped using the spot putty and went exclusively with the mud.

I learned a couple of things. One, rather than try to apply the mud with a scraper, I ended up using my hands and just smearing it on. I also figured out that priming the part first reduced the overall steps to a finished part by one step.

In any case, the mud went on easy, was easy to sand off, and filled the pin holes in one application. The two drawbacks are that it creates a lot more dust than the traditional way, and I had to wait overnight for the mud to dry. I guess that drywall helps to suck the water out of the mud. On fiberglass, it has to air dry so put it on thin.

To summarize, it's the only way I will fill pin holes from this point on.

Another point, this needs to be your last step before priming. You need to do all your surface filling and edge feathering using traditional products first. The only mud you want left on your part is in the pin holes. Also, don't worry about adhesion. The primer soaks into the mud in the pin hole. This seems to saturate it. I looked at them with a magnifying glass and they seemed unwilling to pop out FWIW.

Great suggestion. A real time saver.
 
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Perfect pin hole

Are you going for a Orange Peel Finish or Knock Down finish , maybe some "Pop Korn "on the the head liner !
Not sure on this one .. But if it's working for you try buying drywall compound in dry bags , comes in 90, 60,45,15 and 5 minute drying time . I have used it for making molds , fairing molds etc. instead of micro .
For now I will stick with the known , West Systems Epoxy and fillers . A couple of extra hours now VS the time and cost to remove and fix a drywall repair latter .
Tom
 
Cory Bird process

The best advice out of the EZ community is West 205/105 epoxy and micro ballons for filler. Sands nice especially if you hit it while still green. Contour sand to 36 then 80 grit.
Next squeegee pure epoxy onto the surface, then try to squeegee it all back off. Wait till tacky and repeat 1 or 2 more times. This will fill any pin holes in the surface very nicely.
After cure sand any ridges or defects left by the squeegee with 150-180, scuff the entire surface for primer. If you break thru the epoxy skim coat anywhere re apply. Pin holes are really air bubbles in the micro, when you sand you continuously open more. Next seal with epoxy primer, I used Southern Polyurethanes epoxy and it works very well.
I used this myself on my Cozy and had perhaps 5 pin holes on the entire plane that did not get filled by the process. Those were caught using guide coat, also highly recommended.
Tim

Oh, one more thing, any filler you use can be expected to shrink some small amount. Time and heat does this so speed it up by putting the part out in the sun for a few days once it's in primer. A full summer of cure or a post cure of somekind followed by a final sanding is good insurance against weave print thru, especially important on engine cowls that will see a lot of heat later.


2013 dues...you betcha!
 
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