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Grove 56-1A brakes/wheels vs Vans

David_Nelson

David_Nelson

Well Known Member
Hi All,

Getting ready to order the finish kit and I'm thinking of substituting a set of Grove 56-1A's for Vans' brakes/wheels.

Is this a relatively easy substition "work wise" for an RV7A?

Thanks
/\/elson
RV-7A
Austin, TX
 
Just did this mod myself....

I used the 56-1M wheels (magnesium) to save an extra lb per wheel. The only "mod" that was required was to notch out the fairing support about 3/8" to clear the larger caliper and to add another washer behind the support for clearance due to the thicker disc. The bleeder on the bottom is also very close to the fairing but did not actually hit so good to go there. I also installed the grove master cylinders which I like better than the Matco. There is a definate difference in braking power, feels like I have power brakes now compared to the stock units. The improved braking is definately noticable and believe I could really stop this thing short now if I needed to. Before you really had to honk on the brakes to slow her down and a fully loaded aborted landing would have been very iffy IMO on a short runway. Botton line is very happy I did it and sorry I waited so long.
PS: The folks at grove were a pleasure to deal with, Robby Grove and I talked about my specific needs and what would be best and Gail who answers emails and phone knows what she's talking about as well which was areal pleasure for a change!
 
Gotta be an improvement. Do the kinetic energy calcs and you'll see that the stock brake size has only marginal heat capacity.

DanH
 
Thanks -

Thanks guys -

Cool - doesn't sound like much needs to be done in the way of the wheel pants/brackets.

I referenced the thread about the kinetic energy. Very nice and informative.

Ahhh...so that's what the 'M' stands for - I didn't see it on the www site and I thought maybe it was a typo.

I looked at the master cylinders, too. Very nice features with the adjustable piston and built in resevoirs.

BTW, are the brake pads generally available or do I have to buy them through Grove? And just so that I'm aware, how expensive are replacements compared to Van's brakes?

Thanks,
/\/elson
 
DanH said:
Gotta be an improvement. Do the kinetic energy calcs and you'll see that the stock brake size has only marginal heat capacity.

DanH
Click to expand...

Dan,
There are several other options. One is Cleveland's "upgrade kit" (upgrade kit model 199-093) for the stock brakes. ACS and Wicks both carry this kit. However, at $300, I think it's over priced. You get 2 new, thicker (.300" versus .187") rotors (rotor model 064-09900), a pair of shims to install between the halves of the stock calipers, new pads and 4 longer bolts to hold the caliper halves together.
The thicker rotors give your more heat capacity. (155,000 pounds vs 117,500 pounds) RV-6A owner Ed Anderson converted to this setup after experiencing a brake fire on his Mazda 13B powered ship. You can simply purchase the thicker rotors from Rapco (less expensive than Cleveland), fabricate the shims yourself and buy 1/8" longer bolts.
The VariEzes came with the same wheels and calipers Vans supplies, but with the thicker rotors (complete kit model 199-156). Go on the Canard Aviators List and you can buy brand new complete Cleveland wheel/bearing/brake kits in new condition for less than Vans charges. I got my stock stuff that way. I paid $300, versus Vans $540. I got over a dozen replies to my request.
LongEzes came with the same wheels, but even thicker rotors (.375") and larger calipers, (2" pistons) & larger pads. This complete setup is model 199-151. The LongEze brakes are overkill for an RV. They are rated for gross weights up to 2200 pounds.
I found a pair of new Cleveland wheels, bearings and the LongEze rotors (.375") for sale on EBay. I managed to buy them cheap ($155) because the owner had left the parts sitting in their box on a concrete floor. The outer face of both rotors had started to rust. I resurfaced the outside of these rotors (model 40-08500 .375") down to .312", which is slightly thicker than the .300" thick rotors offered in the "upgrade" kit from Cleveland. I did this to make fabrication of the caliper shims easier. At .312", my rotors are exactly 1/8" (.125") thicker than the stock 3/16" rotors supplied by Vans. This allowed me to simply use 1/8" thick aluminum sheet (6061-T6) to fabricate the shims. For less than the cost of 2 Rapco upgrade rotors, I machined these rotors down to what I wanted AND got a spare pair of wheels/bearings to boot!
Please understand that if you do what I did, that you only remove the excess width off of the outboard side of the rotors. A light "clean up" cut can be made on the inboard side. This is needed to keep the caliper centered (side to side) in the same location of the stock setup.
FYI, the Cleveland wheels are all magnesium. Use of aluminum Matco wheels will add weight. If you decide to go with the Matco, take Walt's advice on getting the magnesium wheels.
Charlie Kuss
PS For reasons I can't figure out, I've never been able to add photos on this list. If anyone wants photos, send an email directly to my listed email address, NOT a private message. I don't check private messages very often.
 
I think Van probably does know a little about brakes and has tried to meet everyone's expectations for braking while at the same time meeting some engineering requirements that are probably not obvious.

One thing to consider is that the taildraggers should probably be very cautious when "improving" their braking ability... nose overs can be and often are the result of hard braking.

I am not sure about the effects on the nose gear as the weight shift onto the nose gear with increased braking effectiveness might exacerbate difficulties there.

These planes are so light and when flown properly into "normal" runway environments they should not need brakes at all. That said, I wouldn't try going without!

imho
 
Last edited:
chaskuss said:
Go on the Canard Aviators List and you can buy brand new complete Cleveland wheel/bearing/brake kits in new condition for less than Vans charges. I got my stock stuff that way. I paid $300, versus Vans $540. I got over a dozen replies to my request.
LongEzes came with the same wheels, but even thicker rotors (.375") and larger calipers, (2" pistons) & larger pads. This complete setup is model 199-151. The LongEze brakes are overkill for an RV. They are rated for gross weights up to 2200 pounds.
ICharlie Kuss
QUOTE]



Is this the list your talking about?

http://www.canardzone.com/forum/

Doesn't look like it gets much traffic.
Click to expand...
 
briand said:
chaskuss said:
Go on the Canard Aviators List and you can buy brand new complete Cleveland wheel/bearing/brake kits in new condition for less than Vans charges. I got my stock stuff that way. I paid $300, versus Vans $540. I got over a dozen replies to my request.
LongEzes came with the same wheels, but even thicker rotors (.375") and larger calipers, (2" pistons) & larger pads. This complete setup is model 199-151. The LongEze brakes are overkill for an RV. They are rated for gross weights up to 2200 pounds.
ICharlie Kuss
QUOTE]



Is this the list your talking about?

http://www.canardzone.com/forum/

Doesn't look like it gets much traffic.
Click to expand...

No, that isn't it. I got the link from a friend building a Cosy Mk IV last year. I have since deleted the link. However, I just sent him an email requesting that info. I'll post the link once I have it.
FYI, don't settle for "used" stuff from these guys. There are enough of these Cleveland brakes available NOS (new old stock) that you don't have to settle for less than new.
Charlie
Click to expand...
 
Glad you got the Groves, Walt

Walt said:
There is a definate difference in braking power, feels like I have power brakes now compared to the stock units. The improved braking is definately noticable and believe I could really stop this thing short now if I needed to. Before you really had to honk on the brakes to slow her down and a fully loaded aborted landing would have been very iffy IMO on a short runway.
Click to expand...

I'll add that its the aborted TAKEOFFS that will eat your sack lunch. Especially after a long taxi at Amarillo on a hot day (DA ~9K-10Kfeet). Hot brakes, thin air, high ground speeds. Exciting.

Several guys I know really like the 56-1As on -7s too. Mine are assembled but still in a box under the bench but they look great! To echo your sentiment about the folks at Grove, Cleveland and others make excellent products as well (when sized right) but when we were looking for help after the catastrophic failure, Robby and Gail were the only ones who would take the time to consult with us.. several times. Great people and products!

For those interested in the costs, deleting the Clevelands from the finish kit got ~$430+ credit from Vans so the cost going in is not too bad if you haven't gotten that far yet.

John

PS Not thumping my own tub but those who are interested might want to check this thread, posted after I helped a guy replace a wing (3mos, $5.5K) after failure of a 29 cent 'O' ring in the standard Clevelands.... can't steer you see...

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=9267
 
Charlie,
Nice work, and a good, informative post. Know about the 199 upgrade kit, have installed one.

Two other easy upgrades. First install caliper piston o-rings with a higher temperature rating. Nitrile is only good for about 275F, while fluorocarbon (Viton) o-rings hang in there to 450F. A Cleveland engineer told me the only reasons they stick with nitrile are (1) certification, and (2) better sealing at very low (like -50F)temperatures. Unless you live in the Arctic, Viton is the way to go. Nobody in the brake world still uses nitrile except us goofy airplane people.

The second painless upgrade is a switch to MIL-H-83282 fluid. It was developed to replace good 'ole MIL-H-5606 for a very good reason; fire resistance. The flash point of MIL-H-5606 is 220F vs 460F for Mil-H-83282, and 83282 is self-extinguishing. Replacing 5606 with 83282 is no trouble; they are completely compatable. Drain one, pour in the other. Mil-H-5606 isn't useless. It retains its low viscosity at -40F, so if you fly your RV at 30,000 feet you'll be happy to know the brakes will work <g>

Consider the fluid specs in light of the failure temperature of nitrile seals. Get your stock brakes hot, 275F or above, and you start dumping 5606 brake fluid with a flash point of 220F on brake parts already well above that temp, all in the nice calm air inside a wheel pant. Can you say "brake fire"?

Here's a link: http://193.113.209.166/aeroshell/aeroshellhydraulicfluids.pdf

Dan
 
Last edited:
chaskuss said:
No, that isn't it. I got the link from a friend building a Cosy Mk IV last year. I have since deleted the link. However, I just sent him an email requesting that info. I'll post the link once I have it.
FYI, don't settle for "used" stuff from these guys. There are enough of these Cleveland brakes available NOS (new old stock) that you don't have to settle for less than new.
Charlie
Click to expand...

My Cosy builder buddy just emailed the correct group. It is:

[email protected]

Charlie Kuss
 
DanH said:
Charlie,

Two other easy upgrades. First install caliper piston o-rings with a higher temperature rating. Nitrile is only good for about 275F, while fluorocarbon (Viton) o-rings hang in there to 450F. A Cleveland engineer told me the only reasons they stick with nitrile are (1) certification, and (2) better sealing at very low (like -50F)temperatures. Unless you live in the Arctic, Viton is the way to go. Nobody in the brake world still uses nitrile except us goofy airplane people.

The second painless upgrade is a switch to MIL-H-83282 fluid. It was developed to replace good 'ole MIL-H-5606 for a very good reason; fire resistance. The flash point of MIL-H-5606 is 220F vs 460F for Mil-H-83282, and 83282 is self-extinguishing. Replacing 5606 with 83282 is no trouble; they are completely compatable. Drain one, pour in the other. Mil-H-5606 isn't useless. It retains its low viscosity at -40F, so if you fly your RV at 30,000 feet you'll be happy to know the brakes will work <g>

Consider the fluid specs in light of the failure temperature of nitrile seals. Get your stock brakes hot, 275F or above, and you start dumping 5606 brake fluid with a flash point of 220F on brake parts already well above that temp, all in the nice calm air inside a wheel pant. Can you say "brake fire"?

Here's a link: http://193.113.209.166/aeroshell/aeroshellhydraulicfluids.pdf


Dan
Click to expand...

I'm aware of three -A models that belong to friends that have had brake failures. Two of these were almost certainly heat-related, one I'm not sure about. No serious damage or fires, but the potential is certainly there,

Two of these airplanes were using MIL-H-5606, one was using automotive ATF as brake fluid. All three were using nitrile O-rings.

I also fly a Cirrus, with a castering nose wheel, and brake fires have been an issue. It is very common for pilots (not used to the castering nosewheel) to open the hangar in their first few months of ownership and find a red puddle under one of the wheel pants. The Cirrus uses Clevelands with the nitrile O-ring and MIL-H-5606. An excerpt from an exemplar Cirrus incident is here:
After an extended taxi the single-engine airplane experienced a right brake fire. The pilot and his two passengers were able to egress the airplane unassisted before the fire was extinguished using large capacity fire extinguishers. Data downloaded from the engine monitor revealed that the 4,100-hour airline transport pilot had taxied the airplane at an average engine speed of 1,640 RPM. The data also revealed that during the taxi, the pilot reached speeds up to 29 mph and often reduced speed without reducing the engine RPM. The Pilot Operating Hand Book listed the following: "Taxi with minimum power needed for forward movement. Excessive braking may result in overheating or damaged brakes. Damage due to overheated brakes may result in brake system malfunction or failure." An examination of the left and right brakes was performed. The O-rings on the left brake pistons were soft and round in shape. The O-rings on the right brake pistons were hard and brittle.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot's excessive taxi speed and his excessive use of brakes.
Click to expand...

Although I have a steerable tailwheel, I was worried enough about this that I recently bought some 83282 (available here) and Viton o-rings (available here).

The fluid, also called Royco 782, comes in a non-resealable gallon can. The automotive paint shop I uses cheerfully gave me some empty (new) quart cans to store the leftover fluid.

The O-rings (took two weeks to ship, slowest vendor I've used in a while) were very quick to install.

I also changed out the elastic stop nuts for all-steel "firewall-forward" nuts.

I can't detect any difference in braking, not that I would expect any.

I know that proper technique would prevent a problem, but I don't want additional unneccessary worries if I have a rejected takeoff on a hot day, or two miles of stop-and-go taxiing at OSH for departure.

This was, IMHO, cheap and easy for a little piece of mind.

James Freeman
 
RV-10 brake upgrade

This seems like something that would improve the overall safety of the aircraft. I'm wondering if anyone has made or is planning on making upgrades to the brake system on the -10. I don't have the parts list for the finish kit yet and am not sure what would need to be replaced.
 
Photos added

chaskuss said:
Dan,
There are several other options. One is Cleveland's "upgrade kit" (upgrade kit model 199-093) for the stock brakes. ACS and Wicks both carry this kit. However, at $300, I think it's over priced. You get 2 new, thicker (.300" versus .187") rotors (rotor model 064-09900), a pair of shims to install between the halves of the stock calipers, new pads and 4 longer bolts to hold the caliper halves together.
The thicker rotors give your more heat capacity. (155,000 pounds vs 117,500 pounds) RV-6A owner Ed Anderson converted to this setup after experiencing a brake fire on his Mazda 13B powered ship. You can simply purchase the thicker rotors from Rapco (less expensive than Cleveland), fabricate the shims yourself and buy 1/8" longer bolts.
The VariEzes came with the same wheels and calipers Vans supplies, but with the thicker rotors (complete kit model 199-156). Go on the Canard Aviators List and you can buy brand new complete Cleveland wheel/bearing/brake kits in new condition for less than Vans charges. I got my stock stuff that way. I paid $300, versus Vans $540. I got over a dozen replies to my request.
LongEzes came with the same wheels, but even thicker rotors (.375") and larger calipers, (2" pistons) & larger pads. This complete setup is model 199-151. The LongEze brakes are overkill for an RV. They are rated for gross weights up to 2200 pounds.
I found a pair of new Cleveland wheels, bearings and the LongEze rotors (.375") for sale on EBay. I managed to buy them cheap ($155) because the owner had left the parts sitting in their box on a concrete floor. The outer face of both rotors had started to rust. I resurfaced the outside of these rotors (model 40-08500 .375") down to .312", which is slightly thicker than the .300" thick rotors offered in the "upgrade" kit from Cleveland. I did this to make fabrication of the caliper shims easier. At .312", my rotors are exactly 1/8" (.125") thicker than the stock 3/16" rotors supplied by Vans. This allowed me to simply use 1/8" thick aluminum sheet (6061-T6) to fabricate the shims. For less than the cost of 2 Rapco upgrade rotors, I machined these rotors down to what I wanted AND got a spare pair of wheels/bearings to boot!
Please understand that if you do what I did, that you only remove the excess width off of the outboard side of the rotors. A light "clean up" cut can be made on the inboard side. This is needed to keep the caliper centered (side to side) in the same location of the stock setup.
FYI, the Cleveland wheels are all magnesium. Use of aluminum Matco wheels will add weight. If you decide to go with the Matco, take Walt's advice on getting the magnesium wheels.
Charlie Kuss
PS For reasons I can't figure out, I've never been able to add photos on this list. If anyone wants photos, send an email directly to my listed email address, NOT a private message. I don't check private messages very often.
Click to expand...

Just read another newer thread on this subject and came back to this to link it to the newer thread. Here are the photos of modifying the Cleveland calipers.

Modified-brake-caliper-1.jpg
[/url][/IMG]

1/8" shim circled in red.

Modified-brake-caliper-showing-location-of-shim.jpg
[/url][/IMG]

Also a note about caliper assembly and maintenance. The slide pins need to be lubricated with special high temp brake grease. If the caliper drags on these pins, one pad will wear faster than the other.

Caliper-showing-where-to-apply-Silicone-Grease.jpg
[/url][/IMG]
 
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