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Aviation Courtesy / Dumb Stunts

responsibility

One of the things I take seriously is the builder of my RV9A.
He is a fine gentleman... older than me and quite a skilled carpenter.
His name will forever be on the data tag on my tail.
He may not know it... but I will always strive not to sully his memories of building the 9. I fly it like a good neighbor. I am nervous about being sued, so I don't do rides or Young Eagles. I know I probably should.
I will not knowingly be an idiot and fly in such a manner that I end up a news byline.
I hope the article that Dick and Vic wrote hits print sooner than later. It has value in more ways than one. Not just to counter the bad RV rap we have all seen. Thanks gentlemen for drafting excellent thoughts.
 
One way to deal with big egos is to appeal to their sense of superiority. A friend at Livermore used to fly a lot of formation in Texas. They used to have one guy who always did a roll on takeoff. One day that guy was lead with an inexperienced wingman who followed lead's example and died inverted on takeoff. My friend was appalled at the lead and later moved away. He always makes sure to tell folks who do that sort of stuff something along the lines of: "People who aren't as good as you are watching you. That may be why you are doing it. Sure, you may be a hot stick, but think about the student who is copying what you do. He's modeling his behaviour on you because he knows you're a better pilot than he is. You are having a big influence on his choices. If he augers in, part of it will be on you for setting a lousy example".
 
Excellent read. I loved when Van mentioned that most of us go through being a bit of a show boat and even he did it many moons ago, though he knows it isn't right. Hey, let's be honest, we've all done silly things in planes before. I don't do them anymore because, well, I'm a selfish jerk who likes living.

Just wish it was easier to shake the bad apples before it becomes too late.
 
Doug, I saw this on Van's Facebook today and was hoping you'd share it on your site. Good job! Thanks!!
 
Thank you Dick & Vic

Excellent reminders to fly safer so you can fly again...we have all seen bold pilots but very few old, bold pilots.
 
I worked fo a small commuter airline in the mid eighties (Britt Airways) I was a young mechanic. We had a Metroliner broke down and I went to fix it. A young captain went with us to ferry the plane to home base. It had a flap problem and they were stuck down. I fixed the plane and we flew it back. I was in the right seat and The captain was very serious and focused. I said to him. "Bob you sure fly this plane like we won't make it (jokingly). He said "Tim you want to be a pilot someday ?) I said "Yes". He said "remember this and it will serve you well, enjoy your flying every time you fly but fly the airplane like it is trying to kill you and you won't let it). I kind of laughed and said ok. It always stuck in my mind. Right, wrong or indifferent that is how I fly, I guess that is why I bought an RV9 and not a F1 Rocket. I spent 26 years in the Air Force. I have flown in the F-4 F-16 mach1 plus, inverted,high g etc. I can tell you It was a blast. I have many fighter pilot friends and they want to do loops rolls etc. I think that is great, after all they are the best trained of all. But, I have never been trained to do aerobatics and I realize that. I see RV's doing formation flying etc and I personally don't care for it. I think it shows (look what You can do if you build an RV airplane). IMHO Aerobatics by ametures should be done out away from airports and where they are least likely to hurt someone if a failure occurs. To me out of sight out of mind! Just my 2 cents.
 
Want to Really Know Who the Guilty Party Is?

Look in the mirror. We've all done it. We watch another pilot do something incredibly stupid or ultra risky and we say "someone needs to talk to him", or worse yet, we sit around the airport table and agree that "some day, he's going to be on the evening news" or he's going to take someone down with him". Maybe we talk to him, but more likely not. Everyone on this airport knows me, and I don't want to develop a reputation as a pri**. So I let it slide. God forbid I get a reputation as a "no fun" pilot or instructor.
I agree with Van and Vic; we need to act - but talking is not acting. We've been sitting passively waiting for Darwin to cull the herd, and the result is higher insurance rates, a growing hatred of RV pilots, and more bloodshed. Perhaps a bit more direct approach is called for. Something like, "hey Bob, that snap roll on takeoff was really impressive, but please don't do that here again". "I won't insult you by trying to explain why you shouldn't, but if it happens again, I'm contacting the local FSDO office". If he does it again, hammer him - perhaps you'll save the life of a student or low time pilot itching to try the same move.
There's enough risk in flying without adding rule busting (or common sense busting) antics. Many of the FARs are written in blood. If we already know someone who's contributed their own, when do we take meaningful action?
Terry CFI
R9A N323TP
 
One problem with a mass appeal to "peer pressure" is the simple fact that we all perceive risk differently. What is utter insanity to one pilot is just another day at the office for another. And let's not forget that just the act of strapping into an "experimental" airplane is viewed as borderline insanity for some people - no mater how professionally they are flown. Are we going to yield to "peer pressure" from that group and park our airplanes for good? No, of course not. So where do we draw the line? FAR violations? Sure, there are some blatant examples that are easy to spot, but let's face it, the FAR's are draconian at best. Are we going to become a culture of people recording bank or climb angles in the pattern on our phones?

The underlying message is valid, but let's think this through before we grab the pitchforks and torches.
 
Commentary for Discussion

I agree that there are "bold" pilots out there, doing some very risky flying. I also would like to think that we, as an aviation community, could do something to help reduce the fatalities, due to this type of behavior, but communication and education, I believe, is better than shunning/penalizing, based on a list of arbitrary criteria.

Consider the following:

If we embrace the idea of shunning "bad pilot behavior," do we limit it to illegal activities only, or do we include behavior that we, as a community deem to be "risky flying." If so, how can we possibly define that? Some pilots are comfortable with huge crosswinds, short, soft fields, and aggressive aerobatic maneuvers. Some, like myself, currently, are not. The article also suggests that the antics of aerobatic demonstrators might negatively encourage others to want to imitate them, but isn't this what creates the next generation of Bob Hoovers, Patty Wagstaffs and Sean Tuckers? If you had no idea who Sean Tucker was, but saw him practicing his act, and later met him on the ground, would you shun him, because of his "reckless behavior," or worse, make it your life's mission get that type of flying declared illegal? After all, for most pilots, flying like that would indeed qualify as risky, at least for them...

It's a large spectrum between totally free and totally safe, and each is exclusive of the other. I'd rather not let legislators, many of whom don't understand what we do and why we do it, decide how we can fly. I think the only way to reduce risky flying is to confront those people, in a helpful way and talk about it, not to avoid or shun them. There will undoubtedly be hurt feelings and hot tempers during some of those discussions, but in my opinion, that's what we need... To go back to being able to truly say what we think to one another. Even those who pretend not to care, typically do.
 
Just thinking out loud here, but where does formation flying fall on this spectrum?

I always regarded formation flying as high risk, completely unnecessary in the civilian world, and rooted in "showing off". And now that I am involved in formation work thanks to a very experienced and professional ex Air Force instuctor, I have seen the light. It is fun, demanding, deadly serious

...and high risk, completely unnecessary, and rooted in showing off.

Yet formation flying has been embraced by this community.

Anybody else see the double standard here?
 
Anybody else see the double standard here?

I don't disagree with your risk assessment, but I don't think it is a double standard either.

There is a highly structured program of training and standard operating procedures for flying formation in RV's. Anyone involved with formation flying should be using the training and procedures. If they aren't, that deserves some level of action from the community as much as anything else.

There is also highly structured training and standardized procedures related to low level aerobatics. If someone has the desire to show-off with low level aerobatics, then they can get the required training that will allow them to obtain a low level waver and they can show a huge crowd what they can do.... legally, in wavered airspace.
 
I agree that a lot of things we (as pilots and owners of E/AB or E-LSA airplanes) do every day, some people think is dangerous and just nuts. I fly an RV-12, and fairly sedately for the most part, but there are people who I am sure think I'm insane to take risks like that. I'm sure the guys in the CAP plane at our field think I'm nuts for flying less than a 2-mile final. ::shrug:: Oh, well.

But still, there is a pretty clear line where we depart from common sense and safe, legal flying. "Thumping" a Cub - or anyone not expecting it - is a good example. Low level impromptu aerobatics without a waiver, anywhere near other planes or people. Formation flying with unwilling or unprepared participants (like unexpectedly "dropping in" on another plane). If you're out in the boonies playing around with a buddy, that's one thing... but don't drag others into it, whether they're on the ground or in the air.

Just my opinion.
 
So doing it legally somehow magically changes a "dumb stunt" into a daring act of bravado that thousands will pay money to see? Hmmm. I'm all for safety but it's difficult to reconcile this. For better worse, a large portion of the population wants to see higher risk events and we all make choices about the level of risk we accept in our own activities. These can range from inching above the posted speed limit in our car to jumping the Grand Canyon in our rocket powered motorcycle. Being legal does not necessarily make all such acts safe, nor does being illegal make all such acts unsafe.

Strive to minimize the risk to others so that everyone potentially impacted stays in their comfort zone whether driving your car, flying your RV, or jumping the Grand Canyon.

Erich
 
So doing it legally somehow magically changes a "dumb stunt" into a daring act of bravado that thousands will pay money to see? Hmmm. I'm all for safety but it's difficult to reconcile this. For better worse, a large portion of the population wants to see higher risk events and we all make choices about the level of risk we accept in our own activities. These can range from inching above the posted speed limit in our car to jumping the Grand Canyon in our rocket powered motorcycle. Being legal does not necessarily make all such acts safe, nor does being illegal make all such acts unsafe.

Strive to minimize the risk to others so that everyone potentially impacted stays in their comfort zone whether driving your car, flying your RV, or jumping the Grand Canyon.

Erich

Obviously directed at me, and you obviously missed my point.......

No one would dispute that there are lot of different risk levels possible with flying.

Guy # 1 may only fly on cloudless days with no wind within gliding distance of his own private (should be no other traffic) runway in a certificated airplane that he spends huge amounts of money to have professionally maintained.

Guy # 2 may fly single engine cross country over mountains at night.... in an experimental. All perfectly legal, but a definite difference in risk compared to guy # 1.

I don't think either of these "levels of risk" fit the context of the article or the discussion in this thread.

Doing illegal low level aerobatics with an innocent passenger is still way out at the extreme edge on the risk scale compared to even guy # 2.

So the point is that doing it legally puts no one else on the ground or in the air at risk. It is the pilot choosing to accept the risk, but not imposing it onto anyone else. At the same time it would be reducing the "there goes another one of those stupid RV pilots" perceptions because the person would have at least demonstrated that they took it seriously and followed the rules.
 
My guess is this thread gets shut down sooner or later.......the line is not straight and there are people with emotions on both sides.
 
This topic need not get overheated if we limit our discussion to those pilots who are actually in violation of CFRs. I think all of the anecdotes given would clearly fall outside of legal if not safe. However, IMHO, no one should confuse (legally conducted) aerobatic or formation flight with the other examples. Just my two cents...
 
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I hope I'm not the only one to observe that there is perhaps a tiny bit of irony to saying "Don't try this at home!" in a community dedicated to building airplanes at home...

Anyhow, the rubric I apply where it comes to intentional misbehavior is this: Does it unduly endanger any who have not made an informed decision to engage in potentially risky activities?

A tangent: Back in my misspent youth, I campaigned Formula motorcycles on the California club racing scene, sponsored by a local Yamaha franchise. The franchise owner's last words were, and this is immortalized in the NTSB report, "Watch this." He then proceeded to pull the wings from his ratty old Luscombe attempting a loop; he and his wife plunged to their deaths.

Now every time I hear someone say "Hey, watch this!" in any context involving anything deadlier than a can opener, I cringe. Every time I start to say it, I stop. Every time I feel myself forming the thoughts behind "observe this exciting thing I am about to do," I back up and ask, who does this impress, and why, and how?

Does it impress with keen judgement? With skill?

Does it impress with perseverance? With insight?

What understanding does it impart? What vistas does it open in the mind of the observer?

And often I go ahead and do the thing. I make the pass, I call the glide, I set sail into the unknown. I do it mindful of the call of the wild ego, and I do it with some care, with awareness of the stakes. But I do it knowing that there is already enough mediocrity it the world, and that often you must temper your caution with a touch of boldness.
 
Aviation courtesy/Dumb stunts

I think a large part of the problem is in the "legal" flight demonstrations that pilots, aviation enthusiasts, and the general public see performed at airshows. I think the above people equate "real" flying with what they see there: tight formations, low level aerobatics, etc. The pros make it look so easy and I think this encourages the high risk takers in the pilot population to try it as well. It is not obvious from just watching, how much training and practice the airshow pilots put into their demonstration. Also not obvious is that they have qualified by way of endorsements and waivers to do such flying.

So the high risk takers, thinking "I'm just as good as those guys" goes off and tries it. And if they get away with it a few times, they keep doing it.

Unfortunately, they are not paying attention: even the pros regularly kill themselves at airshows or during practice. This includes high profile military teams like the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds and our own Snowbirds.

In addition to this, practically every aviation book written by a well known aviator lists example after example of risky behavior gotten away with.

I don't have an answer to the showboat pilot, but this may be where their idea to show off comes from.
 
Rule #1

Rule #1 in my book is don't take someone with you. When I was very active in aerobatics I NEVER did low level acro with a passenger. Likewise no low level non acro flying with a passenger.
Around 2006 I was in Bakersfield CA for a few months. Local pilot in a Rocket along with his teen age passenger perished as a result of a low level loop started too low.
In October an RV4 crashed in Ohio, two fatal. NTSB prelim is out, struck a power line at VERY low altitude.
Don't put innocent people at risk, either in your airplane or on the ground and I don't much care what you do.
 
Not posting here - but replied direct to Vic and Van on the original link by Doug.

Great article.

I think Lauran missed something subtly and unintentionally as he writes a good article.

Would be interesting to have him post here.
 
Just thinking out loud here, but where does formation flying fall on this spectrum?

I always regarded formation flying as high risk, completely unnecessary in the civilian world, and rooted in "showing off". And now that I am involved in formation work thanks to a very experienced and professional ex Air Force instuctor, I have seen the light. It is fun, demanding, deadly serious

...and high risk, completely unnecessary, and rooted in showing off.

Yet formation flying has been embraced by this community.

Anybody else see the double standard here?

I was wondering when someone would mention this. Different activities have different levels of risk and perceived risk.

SOme people say it is too risky not to have a checklist that you follow completely every time and never do anything without a checklist. Other people have mental checklists that they go through mentally all the time. Both of these people probably think the other person is crazy, and possibly too risky. I have a friend who spends at least 30-45 minutes predlighting and going through checklists before taking off for a 30 minute flight. Then he gets back to the hangar and outs the plane away and leaves the master on because the checklist doesn't say "turn off master". I have heard that he practically lost control mentally once when an instrument malfunctioned, like a compass or something like that. I have seen other people walk out to their plane after pulling it out of the hangar and climb in a fire it up and takeoff, no preflight, no runup, etc. There truly is great risk at both ends of that spectrum.
 
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Preflight

Don't jump to conclusions because you saw someone pull their airplane out, jump in and go.
I do mostly post flights. The airplane is completely prepared for the next flight. It is kept in a secure one airplane hangar. All I need to do is noet that I don't have a flat tire or fluid leak on the hangar floor and I'm good to go.
Regarding checklists I don't pass judgement on someone based on whether or not they use a checklist. I feel that checklists should always be used in two pilot crews but in many cases inflight checklists done by a single pilot actually compromise safety. It most certainly reduces the time available to scan for traffic.
 
Anyhow, the rubric I apply where it comes to intentional misbehavior is this: Does it unduly endanger any who have not made an informed decision to engage in potentially risky activities?
Bob, this is exactly how I think about this. I don't want to infringe on anyone else's rights to do something that I might consider risky, but I believe we all owe it to the uninformed, innocent, and naive to do what we can to ensure that this risky activity does not directly affect them.
 
Vic and Vans article

Great article , I am not only a RV lover /Owner but a Ultralight pilot/lover for the low and slow flight.
I'd like to add to this discussion about the 1percent of RV owners and their arrogance toward Ultralights/ Lightsport Pilots. . Please go to Facebook and look up "Those Magnificent men and their flying machines". Read some of the Discussions about the treatment Low and Slow gets from RV pilots. I feel this falls right in the same places as the 1 percent of bad pilots doing low acro and killing themselves.
To me owning / building and flying a RV is about as close to sex as it gets (maybe better in some cases! Hahahaha). I also feel the same about Ultralights. Why the appreciation of both types of flying is not the same is beyond me.
The complaints from the low and slow communities has risen in recent time and is almost all about RV owner/ pilots and their attitudes towards L&S..
I'd like to encourage those 1percent that I hope read this and understand that Ultralight pilots have the same passion as you and are just as proud of their aircraft as you and it would be really nice if you show the same respect and compassion as they do you!!
Last but not least and I'll get off my soap box. There is an age old pilot saying: There are OLD PILOTS and there are BOLD PILOTS "BUT" there's "NO OLD BOLD PILOTS"!!
Be safe and have fun🚀🚀🚀🚀
 
Great article , I am not only a RV lover /Owner but a Ultralight pilot/lover for the low and slow flight.
I'd like to add to this discussion about the 1percent of RV owners and their arrogance toward Ultralights/ Lightsport Pilots. . Please go to Facebook and look up "Those Magnificent men and their flying machines". Read some of the Discussions about the treatment Low and Slow gets from RV pilots. I feel this falls right in the same places as the 1 percent of bad pilots doing low acro and killing themselves.
To me owning / building and flying a RV is about as close to sex as it gets (maybe better in some cases! Hahahaha). I also feel the same about Ultralights. Why the appreciation of both types of flying is not the same is beyond me.
The complaints from the low and slow communities has risen in recent time and is almost all about RV owner/ pilots and their attitudes towards L&S..
I'd like to encourage those 1percent that I hope read this and understand that Ultralight pilots have the same passion as you and are just as proud of their aircraft as you and it would be really nice if you show the same respect and compassion as they do you!!
Last but not least and I'll get off my soap box. There is an age old pilot saying: There are OLD PILOTS and there are BOLD PILOTS "BUT" there's "NO OLD BOLD PILOTS"!!
Be safe and have fun🚀🚀🚀🚀

I have a lot of friends that fit in the L & S catagory. One flys an Ultralight and most of the others fly Champs or Chiefs. A few months back, I pulled up along side a Chief (yes we briefed first) and flew alongside for about 15-minutes so the pilot could get some air to air images / video of my aircraft.

Most RV'ers think I am just a SLOW RV. The 160 HP does not accelerate as fast as their 360s.
 
Despite 4K+ hrs and 400 in my RV-4 nobody cares about my opinion. With that said, very nicely done on the article Dick and Vic. Thank you for advocating for safe and responsible enjoyment of these incredible machines.
 
Don't jump to conclusions because you saw someone pull their airplane out, jump in and go.
I do mostly post flights. The airplane is completely prepared for the next flight. It is kept in a secure one airplane hangar. All I need to do is noet that I don't have a flat tire or fluid leak on the hangar floor and I'm good to go.
Regarding checklists I don't pass judgement on someone based on whether or not they use a checklist. I feel that checklists should always be used in two pilot crews but in many cases inflight checklists done by a single pilot actually compromise safety. It most certainly reduces the time available to scan for traffic.

So there's no possible chance of rodents, mud daubers, or anything else happening to your airplane since you post flight inspection?

I also do a very thorough post flight inspection, but I still do a preflight.
 
I do both...

When I put the plane away I do a post-flight inspection, because I would really HATE to go to the hangar to go flying, and find something broken that's going to take a while to fix... and know it sat there broken while I could have been fixing it. It's also a lot quicker to check the oil in the Rotax while it's nice and hot.

Pre-flight I just have to do an abbreviated inspection. Walk around, double-check hardware, check tires, look for evidence of leaks and make sure no bugs, rodents or birds have taken up residence.
 
Very good article and lots of good commentary here in this thread. My opinion is that there will always be the cavalier (please insert your definition on what that means) pilots out there. It is just human nature. These pilot's will tend to migrate to very capable aircraft, like a RVs. I agree with the article's attempt to change behavior but I believe there will be little impact on the few that are just wired to be cavaliers. An alternate approach to the articles shunning bad behavior is educate. Ask the pilot what is his/her contingency for engine out or bird strike at that low altitude. Do it in context of your education with an attempt at making him/her aware of the risk and consequence.

Areas to address the issue that I think may be more impactful is in pilot training and education. Student pilots need to understand better the risks; know that airshow performers have many hours of training and practice. I am a firm believer in everyone should decide for themselves what is risky and what is safe. It is a very personal decision but needs to be an informed decision. In high school my drivers education class showed hours of video of crashes and mangled cars and bodies. I don't recommend this for pilot training but believe risk should be in the syllabus. Maybe it has been added in the 35 years since I took pilot training, but wasn't when I learned to fly. My flying is all about managing risk.

Another area to help with this issue is to get more media coverage of all the excellent, safe, well trained pilots that are out there. Instead of just getting local news to cover accidents and air shows (both that showcase aviation as risky), we need to get more main stream media (and aviation media) to also cover the training that goes on before an airshow. Show the perfessionalism involved with formation flying. Give insight into the pilot briefings and safety measures for air racing. List can go on and on.

I will attempt to influence those I can to be safer but it will not attempt to make their flying decisions for them or require them to accept only my defined level of risk. It comes down to education. Educate them and let all make their own decisions. This also pertains to passengers. We need to educate pilot's that their passengers need be told what their risk level is for a particular flight so they can decide if they wish to take a ride.
 
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Positive Experience with "Those RV Pilots"

I thought I would add some observations to counter-balance the theme of "those RV pilots" that was expressed in Lauren Paine's article and reflected on in Van's article.

A couple of weeks ago there was a fly-in for RVs at Benton Field in Redding, CA. Its about a 45-minute flight from Ashland, so I just popped on down to say hi and have a burger and see what other RVs might show up. I expected a handful and was surprised to see over 30.

During my descent and arrival monitoring the field unicom, I overheard several RVs arrive, enter the pattern, land and taxi. Then on departure and climb out, I overheard several more. There were also a number of arrivals and departures while I was on the ground.

I have to say how impressed I was with the level of professionalism on the radio, flying courtesy, and airmanship that was demonstrated by ALL the RVs I saw that day. Although it would seem the perfect venue to invite a little bit of showboating, there was none. Not even one high-speed fly-by.

I felt that as a community, all the RVs there were good ambassadors for flying, for home-builts, and for RVs. I'm sure we will be welcomed back next year.
 
All this debating about what's specifically safe or legal seems kind of silly to me. I think most of us know just plain dumb or discourteous when we see it (or do it). Structured, disciplined formation flight improves flying skills, is enjoyable to watch, and safe when done right. "Bouncing" someone you don't even know in a low and slow is just plain childish. It comes down to common sense and the recognition that what you do has the potential of contributing to an unfavorable stereotype of RVers (or worse).
 
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All this debating about what's specifically safe or legal seems kind of silly to me. I think most of us know just plain dumb or discourteous when we see it (or do it). Structured, disciplined formation flight improves flying skills, is enjoyable to watch, and safe when done right. "Bouncing" someone you don't even know in a low and slow is just plain childish. It comes down to common sense and the recognition that what you do has the potential of contributing to an unfavorable stereotype of RVers (or worse).
Ditto Randall's comments.

Common sense, good judgement, and professional courtesy should be what we all aspire to and the core values of the pilot culture that we are part of. If enough of us demonstrate that consistently it will steer the culture to higher ground. Occasionally there will be those who are oblivious to the cultures values, but we can minimize it by always setting a good example.
 
Ditto Randall's comments.

Common sense, good judgement, and professional courtesy should be what we all aspire to and the core values of the pilot culture that we are part of. If enough of us demonstrate that consistently it will steer the culture to higher ground. Occasionally there will be those who are oblivious to the cultures values, but we can minimize it by always setting a good example.

Exactly what I mean by saying we are all ambassadors for RVs and for GA in general.
 
different folks have different limitations, both for their aircraft and skill set.

if you do something that is on the edge of your, or your airplanes limitations, your risk increases astronomically.

If you train well and become proficient, the "risk" of a given maneuver goes down.

Hard to draw a clear line and say something is safe or unsafe in all circumstances, but it's easy to see that a maneuver that involves an uninformed and potentially unwilling participant can't be considered smart or safe.
 
Crop Duster

Generalaviationnews.com has an interesting article about a man identified only as Crop Duster. Humorous story from a different era.
 
Risk vs Reward.

As the pilot in command you are responsible and accountable for the safety of your crew/passengers, your aircraft, and anyone on the ground below you. In high risk operations such as search and rescue, the pilot must evaluate the risks willing to be taken in order to complete the mission. When the risks becomes to great, the mission is scrubbed. No matter the level of experience or the number of hours a pilot has, every pilot needs to consider this. I have seen many innocent passengers who trusted their pilot to make the right decisions become a victim because of poor piloting decisions.
 
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